OSAS, the final answer

[RickyZ]

Based on arguments made here on CC among these oh so many like threads, based on my own thread in which we broke down each individual argument, based on study, and based on experience, this is how it really works:


1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.

2. Righteousness/Salvation is based upon belief/faith.

3. Belief and faith are not acts of works.

4. We are not saved by acts of works.

5. Works are a reliable discerner of salvation status

6. Once His, God will never turn us away because of our works

7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve

8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselfs away from salvation

9. Disbelief is not an act of works

10. Salvation is not lost by works.

11. Salvation is lost by apostasy

 

[nowyouseem033]

Once a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact.

(a) Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.

(b) Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.

(c) Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.

(d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be "un-indwelt" and detached from the Body of Christ.

(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

(f) For the most conclusive argument, Scripture says it best itself, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!

 

[Budman]

One can turn away from God after salvation, but God will never turn away from them.

If you are His child, His child you will remain.

It boggles my mind that people will attribute things to God that they themselves would never do.

If you child disobeyed you, turned/ran away from you, and even claimed they were no longer your child, would they stop being your child? Would any loving parent ever disown them for their disobedience?

Never!

If you truly loved your child, your love would be based on the fact they are your child, and not on their performance. Your love for them is based on who they are, not on what they do.

 

[wattie]

This has been absolutely thrashed to death. There are numerous threads that have addressed this. But if we are talking about the gift of eternal life, then we are talking about something that can't be temporary. If eternal salvation could be undone it would not be eternal. Here is the key thing to understand: salvation and the word save do not always refer to being converted. The reason so many believe it can be lossed is because of taking a verse about daily service, daily salvation, and applying it to conversion. Prime example is faith without works is dead in James. This verse is in the context of daily service, not conversion

 

[psychomom]

1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.

here's a spanner for you...

God's Word disagrees with point one.

 

[blood_bought]

Based on arguments made here on CC among these oh so many like threads, based on my own thread in which we broke down each individual argument, based on study, and based on experience, this is how it really works:

1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.

yes.

2. Righteousness/Salvation is based upon belief/faith.

yes a continued belief, but true repentant/saving faith is evidenced by a departure from iniquity, therefore---> righteousness.

whether or not that departure is viewed as "works" appears to be a matter of contention, but it's simply the seed of the Word producing after it's own kind. in any degree, anything less is antinomianism/gnosticism.

3. Belief and faith are not acts of works.

i disagree. faith justifies, but true faith gives birth to works...or, faith is perfected by works manifested.

1Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


faith is operative, dynamic, powerful...fruitful. otherwise faith is just a confession that appears godly, but denies its power.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

4. We are not saved by acts of works.

this is true, yet faith without works is dead. (James 2) in this sense, faith itself is a work if it is truly faith.

5. Works are a reliable discerner of salvation status

there is no status of salvation, we work it out in fear and trembling. we are being saved.

6. Once His, God will never turn us away because of our works

not sure what you mean here.

7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve

yes.

8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselfs away from salvation

yes.

9. Disbelief is not an act of works

not sure what you mean here.

10. Salvation is not lost by works.

not sure what you mean here.

11. Salvation is lost by apostasy

yes.

 

[valiant]

Based on arguments made here on CC among these oh so many like threads, based on my own thread in which we broke down each individual argument, based on study, and based on experience, this is how it really works:


1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.

FALSE. Belief is not something we DO. It is a response to credible evidence, and a consequence of conviction. It is thus God and His word which bring us through to faith by the working of His Holy Spirit. 'Faith comes by hearing and hearing by God's direct word'.

2. Righteousness/Salvation is based upon belief/faith.

FALSE> Righteousness/salvation is based on God's work, including His activity through the cross, providing a way by which men may first be accounted righteous, and secondly made righteous. It is received through faith.

3. Belief and faith are not acts of works.

True, so we are not 'free' to do them.

4. We are not saved by acts of works.

Completely true.

5. Works are a reliable discerner of salvation status

True because once believe we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph 2.10)

6. Once His, God will never turn us away because of our works

True.

7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve

FALSE. We do not control belief. It is a response to 'evidence', whether literal or spiritual.

8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselfs away from salvation

Totally FALSE Salvation is God's work. He does not leave it to us. He works it upon us and within us. His guarantee was that He would never fail (John 6.39; 1 Cor 1.8-9; Phil 2.6 etc.)

9. Disbelief is not an act of works

It is not an act at all. We do not choose to disbelieve although we can choose to turn way from God. But as Jesus promised, if we do and are really His, He will seek us until He finds us (Luke 15.4).

10. Salvation is not lost by works.

Very true. Salvation is in God's hands. It can never be lost.

11. Salvation is lost by apostasy

Totally FALSE. No one who has the Holy Spirit within them, and has been born of the Spirit, will FINALLY apostasies.

Salvation is God's work not ours. If salvation fails, God has failed. And that is impossible.

 

[p_rehbein]

Based on arguments made here on CC among these oh so many like threads, based on my own thread in which we broke down each individual argument, based on study, and based on experience, this is how it really works:


1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.

2. Righteousness/Salvation is based upon belief/faith.

3. Belief and faith are not acts of works.

4. We are not saved by acts of works.

5. Works are a reliable discerner of salvation status

6. Once His, God will never turn us away because of our works

7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve

8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselfs away from salvation

9. Disbelief is not an act of works

10. Salvation is not lost by works.

11. Salvation is lost by apostasy

Hmm............Trying to find a reason to argue with you........Why? Well, I usually do argue with you.......sigh.......Hmm

 

[p_rehbein]

Originally Posted by RickyZ
3. Belief and faith are not acts of works.





blood_bought sez: i disagree. faith justifies, but true faith gives birth to works...or, faith is perfected by works manifested.


Odd comment

You disagree, then you make his point for him in agreement with him......

FYI: Works are the "fruit" of salvation by Grace through Faith.......and, yes, Faith GIVES BIRTH to works.......ergo Faith is not a work, just as he AND YOU state.

This is what one calls an "Agreeable Disagreement."

 

[blye43]

There are so many scriptures showing our Eternal State In Christ as Secure forever..I will provide just 1 for now
**God has chooen us(His own) in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the World!! God must be mistaken of what he did if one can reverse God's Choice through his actions or Mind set.

 

[flob]

I know. Lol--then you get unchosen, then chosen again if you believe again? then maybe unchosen, then rechosen for the past, then, then ..

 

[blye43]

You are right on Brother!! 1st I would be His Child//Then not His child, etc.etc.
***Blessed Assurance***Jesus is Mine!!!! and I am His!!!

 

[nowyouseem033]

I believe in once saved always saved!!! Clearly taught in the bible

Its once prayed always saved I have a problem with!!!!

Can you lose your salvation???
This suggests two contradictory statements.

1) That salvation is yours.. (Can you...lose YOUR)
2) and that salvation is conditional based upon YOUR choice for him or against him. Which then puts YOU at the very centre of saving yourself!!! hence following maintaining yourself also.


Salavation is of the lord, so when God saves since God does the saving, the question is reversed to a God centred view and understanding.
Can God lose your salvation? rather than Can I lose my salvation?
to answer this question is simply by answering this question:
Who does the saving???
Whoever does the saving is the very same being that does the maintaining.
Clearly God does the saving so therefore God is the one who finishes that which has been started.
and once your saved, God will never lose you and their no longer remains condemnation for those that are his.
Remember we didn't choose him, he chose us.

However don't think a person is saved because they professed faith because it is possessing faith that determines if one is saved not professing faith. Many professing faith Christians few possessing faith Christians.
Hence once prayed always saved is the statement we should be attacking not once saved always saved.

 

[Rosesrock]

seriously?? seriously?? I mean really? sigh. I think this place will explode with ONE MORE ALWAYS SAVED THREAD.

While I"m here.

Eph 2:8-9 For by GRACE are you SAVED through FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES. IT'S A GIFT of GOD and not of WORKS, let any man should boast.

 

[SeaBass]

Jn 6:27-29:
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Believing is a work, it is the labour one does unto everlasting life and if one quits doing the work of belief he will for certain be lost.

 

[blood_bought]

Originally Posted by RickyZ
3. Belief and faith are not acts of works.


blood_bought sez: i disagree. faith justifies, but true faith gives birth to works...or, faith is perfected by works manifested.

Odd comment

You disagree, then you make his point for him in agreement with him......

not so odd if one can discern the definition of belief/faith in use at point #3. it's that which i disagree with.

initial faith in Christ from the heart justifies, but that faith is perfected in maturation evidenced in works, thus belief/faith is a work.

what say you to the rest of my response?

"1Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


faith is operative, dynamic, powerful...fruitful. otherwise faith is just a confession that appears godly, but denies its power.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power."

FYI: Works are the "fruit" of salvation by Grace through Faith.......and, yes, Faith GIVES BIRTH to works.......ergo Faith is not a work, just as he AND YOU state.

This is what one calls an "Agreeable Disagreement."

no so disagreeable. can a mother claim her title without giving birth to her child? it is the same with faith, it cannot be a living faith unless it produces fruit unto righteousness. faith without works is dead.

 

[mwc68]

Good luck with that "final answer" thing. Several, including me, disagree.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe in once saved always saved!!! Clearly taught in the bible

Its once prayed always saved I have a problem with!!!!

Can you lose your salvation???
This suggests two contradictory statements.

1) That salvation is yours.. (Can you...lose YOUR)
2) and that salvation is conditional based upon YOUR choice for him or against him. Which then puts YOU at the very centre of saving yourself!!! hence following maintaining yourself also.


Salavation is of the lord, so when God saves since God does the saving, the question is reversed to a God centred view and understanding.
Can God lose your salvation? rather than Can I lose my salvation?
to answer this question is simply by answering this question:
Who does the saving???
Whoever does the saving is the very same being that does the maintaining.
Clearly God does the saving so therefore God is the one who finishes that which has been started.
and once your saved, God will never lose you and their no longer remains condemnation for those that are his.
Remember we didn't choose him, he chose us.

However don't think a person is saved because they professed faith because it is possessing faith that determines if one is saved not professing faith. Many professing faith Christians few possessing faith Christians.
Hence once prayed always saved is the statement we should be attacking not once saved always saved.

Amen, Like james said, I can say I have faith till I am blue in the faith, if my outward actions and life does not produce fruit of which a true faith would produce (works) my faith is dead. And all I have is mere belief.

Belief will not save anyone, only true faith will.

 

[ChrisHill]

It is very difficult to answer this question if you come at it with misconceived premises. I think I can give an answer from beginning to end using only scripture. Except I'm not going to use the term 'saved', because it's loaded.

[Psa 37:9 NKJV] For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the LORD, They shall inherit the earth.
[Psa 37:10 NKJV] For yet a little while and the wicked [shall be] no [more]; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it [shall be] no [more].
[Psa 37:11 NKJV] But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
[Psa 37:18 NKJV] The LORD knows the days of the upright, And their inheritance shall be forever.
[Psa 37:20 NKJV] But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away.
[Psa 37:22 NKJV] For [those] blessed by Him shall inherit the earth, But [those] cursed by Him shall be cut off.
[Psa 37:23 NKJV] The steps of a [good] man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way.
[Psa 37:24 NKJV] Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; For the LORD upholds [him with] His hand.
[Psa 37:28 NKJV] For the LORD loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
[Psa 37:29 NKJV] The righteous shall inherit the land, And dwell in it forever.
[Psa 37:34 NKJV] Wait on the LORD, And keep His way, And He shall exalt you to inherit the land; When the wicked are cut off, you shall see [it].
[Psa 37:35 NKJV] I have seen the wicked in great power, And spreading himself like a native green tree.
[Psa 37:36 NKJV] Yet he passed away, and behold, he [was] no [more]; Indeed I sought him, but he could not be found.

How, then, does God define a wicked person?

[Isa 26:10 NKJV] Let grace be shown to the wicked, [Yet] he will not learn righteousness; In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, And will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

The wicked will do unjustly in the 'land of uprightness'. Do you know that all dead will live again in the land of uprightness, and will then be judged?

[Rev 20:4 NKJV] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
[Rev 20:5 NKJV] But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
[Rev 20:12 NKJV] And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
[Rev 20:13 NKJV] The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
[Rev 20:14 NKJV] Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[Rev 20:15 NKJV] And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

As the devil has been cast into the lake of fire before all the dead live again, all the dead will live in the land of uprightness. Isaiah says that those who still deal unjustly and refuse to behold the glory of the LORD in the land of uprightness are wicked. Jesus said,

[Jhn 11:26 NKJV] "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Since all dead will live again, all will have a chance to behold the glory of the LORD. The wicked will refuse even still.

 

[MarcR]

Prehaps this is too simplistic, but it works for me:

Jesus said: Jn 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
KJV


From this I conclude:

1) I am secure in the hand of Jesus and the hand of the Father.

2) I am a man.

3} NO MAN, NOT EVEN ME, can pluck me from Jesus hand or the Father's hand.

__________________________________________________ ___________________

Lord means owner. Jesus, by his payment of my sin debt, has purchased me. I am NOT my own.

I have neither the authority nor the means to cancel Jesus' ownership. I also have no desire to cancel His ownership; but if the previous statements are true, as I believe they are, my desire should not matter.