OSAS, the final answer

[valiant]

Jn 6:27-29:
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Believing is a work, it is the labour one does unto everlasting life and if one quits doing the work of belief he will for certain be lost.

lol back again with your heresies and your lacking in understanding? Any belief that is the result of working it up is invalid and foolish. Faith is a response to evidence, whether physical or Spiritual. Nothing more, nothing less.

In SENSE YOU CANNOT HELP WHAT YOU BELIEVE. IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT EVIDENCE YOU ARE FACED WITH.

 

[SeaBass]

Prehaps this is too simplistic, but it works for me:

Jesus said: Jn 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
KJV


From this I conclude:

1) I am secure in the hand of Jesus and the hand of the Father.

2) I am a man.

3} NO MAN, NOT EVEN ME, can pluck me from Jesus hand or the Father's hand.

__________________________________________________ ___________________

Lord means owner. Jesus, by his payment of my sin debt, has purchased me. I am NOT my own.

I have neither the authority nor the means to cancel Jesus' ownership. I also have no desire to cancel His ownership; but if the previous statements are true, as I believe they are, my desire should not matter.

John 10:27-A man, of his own volition, chooses to hear and follow Christ qualifying him as one of Christ's sheep. What if that man, again of his own volition, chooses to quit hearing and following Christ? Remains a sheep anyway in the hand of God?

 

[SeaBass]

lol back again with your heresies and your lacking in understanding? Any belief that is the result of working it up is invalid and foolish. Faith is a response to evidence, whether physical or Spiritual. Nothing more, nothing less.

In SENSE YOU CANNOT HELP WHAT YOU BELIEVE. IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT EVIDENCE YOU ARE FACED WITH.

In the context of Jn 6:27-29 Jesus Himself called belief a work. Belief was the work Jesus gave the people when they asked Him "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

IN the context of Jn 6:27-29 Jesus HIMSELF called belief a work. Belief was the work Jesus gave the people when they asked "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

it is the WORK OF GOD..

end of story, end of game, times up. you lost. etc etc

Your trying to add your own works. and rejecting the work of God. That legalism.

 

[JesusIsAll]

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

1 John 4:4-6 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John 6:37-39 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise [never] cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. [Luke 11:13, 1 Corinthians 12]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

2 Corinthians 1:22 And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? [the devil, deceivers] It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

1 John 5:10-13 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Psalm 34:22 The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.

Hebrews 7:24-25 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 6:17-20 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jude 24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[video=youtube;XavJyvpSnQM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XavJyvpSnQM[/video]​

 

[ChrisHill]

John 10:27-A man, of his own volition, chooses to hear and follow Christ qualifying him as one of Christ's sheep. What if that man, again of his own volition, chooses to quit hearing and following Christ? Remains a sheep anyway in the hand of God?

In the end, there is one choice that men have the authority to make concerning themselves:

[Deu 30:15 NKJV] "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,
[Deu 30:19 NKJV] "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

You can pluck yourself from the hand of the Shepherd, by choosing death instead of life. But God is full of grace, mercy, and righteous judgement. No man will have to make this choice under deception. My previous post proves that those who are wicked, who are destroyed, are only judged in the land of uprightness, and not before.

 

[Gr8grace]

John 10:27-A man, of his own volition, chooses to hear and follow Christ qualifying him as one of Christ's sheep. What if that man, again of his own volition, chooses to quit hearing and following Christ? Remains a sheep anyway in the hand of God?

Rom 8~~38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[SeaBass]

it is the WORK OF GOD..

end of story, end of game, times up. you lost. etc etc

Your trying to add your own works. and rejecting the work of God. That legalism.

Belief is the work of God in that God is the source of the work and gives that work to man to do.

1 Cor 16:10 "Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do."

If one believes then he "worketh the work of the Lord". Obviously the Lord does not do the work Himself but gives man the work to be done. Since belief is a work of God that God has given to man, then the work of believing is God's work for me to do not my own work for me to do.

 

[SeaBass]

In the end, there is one choice that men have the authority to make concerning themselves:

[Deu 30:15 NKJV] "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil,
[Deu 30:19 NKJV] "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

You can pluck yourself from the hand of the Shepherd, by choosing death instead of life. But God is full of grace, mercy, and righteous judgement. No man will have to make this choice under deception. My previous post proves that those who are wicked, who are destroyed, are only judged in the land of uprightness, and not before.

Hi.

One puts himself in the hand of God by deciding to become a sheep of Christ by choosing to hear and follow Christ (jn 6:27). Likewise, one can remove himself from the hand of God by deciding to quit hearing and following Christ thereby disqualifying himself from being one of Christ's sheep. God is not a Calvinist for God does not unconditionally (pre)determine for each man which ones will or will not be in His hand.


A NT verse that goes with the OT verse you posted is Rom 6:16:

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Men will choose which master they will serve, men will choose to either serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.

 

[SeaBass]

Rom 8~~38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A man can remove himself from the love of God, therefore Jude admonishes/commands "keep yourselves in the love of God" Jude 1:21. Men choose to be in God's love by obeying God (Jn 14:21) and can choose to quit obeying God falling out of the love God has for those that are His children.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Belief is the work of God in that God is the source of the work and gives that work to man to do.

1 Cor 16:10 "Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do."

If one believes then he "worketh the work of the Lord". Obviously the Lord does not do the work Himself but gives man the work to be done. Since belief is a work of God that God has given to man, then the work of believing is God's work for me to do not my own work for me to do.

Jesus said, it is the WORK OF GOD that WE BELIEVE in the one he sent.

dude, why do you keep going? your refuted, the game is over, your argument is toast, You opened a can of wormsby saying Jesus said belief is a work, and it destroyed your whole thesis, So give it up.

and do what peter did. and believe Jesus is the son of the living God who has the WORDS of eternal life. and recieve them, and you to can never hunger or thirst, love forever, ever die, and be risen on the last day (john 6)

or continue trying to add your own works of righteousness. and suffer the consequence of your works.

 

[ChrisHill]

Hi.

One puts himself in the hand of God by deciding to become a sheep of Christ by choosing to hear and follow Christ (jn 6:27). Likewise, one can remove himself from the hand of God by deciding to quit hearing and following Christ thereby disqualifying himself from being one of Christ's sheep. God is not a Calvinist for God does not unconditionally (pre)determine for each man which ones will or will not be in His hand.


A NT verse that goes with the OT verse you posted is Rom 6:16:

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Men will choose which master they will serve, men will choose to either serve sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.

This is true, however, I think it is important to emphasize when the final choice between wickedness and righteousness will be made. Which is, as Isaiah is clear, in the 'land of uprightness'. This can only take place after Satan has been dealt with.

 

[SeaBass]

Jesus said, it is the WORK OF GOD that WE BELIEVE in the one he sent.

dude, why do you keep going? your refuted, the game is over, your argument is toast, You opened a can of wormsby saying Jesus said belief is a work, and it destroyed your whole thesis, So give it up.

and do what peter did. and believe Jesus is the son of the living God who has the WORDS of eternal life. and recieve them, and you to can never hunger or thirst, love forever, ever die, and be risen on the last day (john 6)

or continue trying to add your own works of righteousness. and suffer the consequence of your works.

You posted it yourself:

Jesus said, it is the WORK OF GOD that WE BELIEVE in the one he sent.



WE BELIEVE, WE DO the work of believing.


Jn 6:28 "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

They asked Jesus what shall WE DO, that WE WORK the works of God.

Jesus did not tell them do "no works else you try to earn your salvation" but Jesus answered their question by giving them a work to do the work of believing.


Believing is a work of God that God has given me to do and not mine own work. For one to do the work of believing to be saved is not my idea and it's not my work I invented, but it's God's idea and God's work He has given to man to do.

 

[atwhatcost]

"OSAS, the final answer"

I hereby vote RickyZ as the ultimate optimist on this site.

Does anyone agree? lol

 

[SeaBass]

This is true, however, I think it is important to emphasize when the final choice between wickedness and righteousness will be made. Which is, as Isaiah is clear, in the 'land of uprightness'. This can only take place after Satan has been dealt with.

Yes, God will separate the righteous from the unrighteous on judgement day so man must make the choice in this life to be a servant to sin or a servant to righteousness.

 

[VioletReigns]

Based on arguments made here on CC among these oh so many like threads, based on my own thread in which we broke down each individual argument, based on study, and based on experience, this is how it really works:


1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.

2. Righteousness/Salvation is based upon belief/faith.

3. Belief and faith are not acts of works.

4. We are not saved by acts of works.

5. Works are a reliable discerner of salvation status

6. Once His, God will never turn us away because of our works

7. Even when saved we retain our right to believe/disbelieve

8. By disbelief (apostasy) one can turn themselfs away from salvation

9. Disbelief is not an act of works

10. Salvation is not lost by works.

11. Salvation is lost by apostasy

..............................


Brother Ricky, I'm afraid your final answer is just gonna generate more and more debating. But my hat's off to ya for trying.

Nevertheless, only the Holy Spirit can open our eyes of understanding. Our carnal mind (intellect, mentality, intelligence, etc) cannot even hope to grasp the reality of grace in Jesus Christ. It's only discerned by the spirit of Christ in us. So long as a man is content with and convinced that his physical efforts of obedience and believes it's "holiness", you're not gonna shake his confidence in the flesh. But what is impossible with man, is possible with God.

Remember the rich young ruler: "Lord, I have done all these things and have obeyed every law." He was pretty sure that his obedience made him holy enough for God. But Jesus knows our heart. He knew the rich young ruler was proud of his accomplishments and what he had gained by them. When the Lord exposed him by asking him to give away all he had, the rich young ruler walked away sadly. His house of cards collapsed.

Jesus wanted the rich young ruler to understand that eternal life is a free gift from God, not something earned or maintained by works. Obedience from the heart isn't something we can brag about. It isn't something we do... but what Jesus is doing in us. It is the Holy Spirit performing His will in us and as we surrender our minds and hearts to Him more and more, we see Him clearer and clearer. It is believing with our mind that Jesus is conforming us and leading us to do His will. Like little children, the Father has grasped us by the hand, leading us and teaching us that He is in absolute control. And we can rest in that.

 

[Angela53510]

1. We are free to believe or disbelieve according to our own free will.

Sorry, you also lost me completely at this point. I don't see free will anywhere in the Bible. I think of "free will" as sort of an American invention - you know, "land of the free..."

With God, he is totally in control and sovereign. That means he saves us, we do not save ourselves with a "choice."

Feel free to correct me with Scripture - pertaining to free will and salvation. You won't find it!

I'm not reposting all the verses and passages that others have already posted, ok?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You posted it yourself:

Jesus said, it is the WORK OF GOD that WE BELIEVE in the one he sent.



WE BELIEVE, WE DO the work of believing.


Jn 6:28 "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

They asked Jesus what shall WE DO, that WE WORK the works of God.

Jesus did not tell them do "no works else you try to earn your salvation" but Jesus answered their question by giving them a work to do the work of believing.


Believing is a work of God that God has given me to do and not mine own work. For one to do the work of believing to be saved is not my idea and it's not my work I invented, but it's God's idea and God's work He has given to man to do.

Why do you bother.

they asked, What works can we do so we may do the work of God.

Jesus reply.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Jesus own reply was, You can do not work, God must do all the work. It is the WORK OF GOD that WE BELIEVE.


End of story, Game over, Your done, You just twisted Gods word, and said Jesus said we must work hen Jesus said NO SUCH THING IN THE PASSAGE!

You do understand it is called blasphemy to attribute the work of God to men or angels do you not? Jesus called it the unpardonable sin, so I would suggest you stop attempting to do this, and repent.

 

[SeaBass]

Sorry, you also lost me completely at this point. I don't see free will anywhere in the Bible. I think of "free will" as sort of an American invention - you know, "land of the free..."

With God, he is totally in control and sovereign. That means he saves us, we do not save ourselves with a "choice."

Feel free to correct me with Scripture - pertaining to free will and salvation. You won't find it!

I'm not reposting all the verses and passages that others have already posted, ok?

So what is the point in God commanding men to believe if man has no free will in the matter at all? The command to believe implies with it that man has ability, responsibility and accountability for choosing to believe or not. God has given man the responsibility and accountability to believe and man cannot throw that accountability and responsibility back upon God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think we will all get the final laugh, I think Ricky was just showing how futile the attempts to declare this subject settled. For if you read all the different threads, you must come up with the list he made. Which makes no sense.

or I could be wrong, and ricky is honest about that list and he thinks his list is correct concerning eternal life.