OSAS, When does salvation take place?
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Hebrew believers were going back to OT sacrifices. Hebrews 10:26 sacrifice for sins is animal sacrifice. Hebrews 6 is similar with them being admonished to go on to maturity. 'Fall away'..falling away from maturity..not eternal life.
The Book of Hebrews warns the Jewish Christians that to go back to Judaism because of present persecution would be apostacy.
The several warnings clearly points out to go back would result in loss of salvation.
If to everyone is given a measure of faith, and God gives it in good faith, then it is a matter of the will to place it wherever one would like. For example, considering the nature of faith is of things not seen, then one has to have faith in Zeus to believe in Zeus and vice versa. This thought generated my interest to search for any occurrences referring to anyone that had "no faith" to determine whether I could accept this hypothesis or whether I must reject it if I encountered an explicit occurrence. However, the search engine returned none except Jesus' question to His disciples, "Why are you so fearful? Have you no faith?" Now, the problem with outright rejecting my hypothesis come in the form of determining whether this, "Have you no faith?" is a rhetorical question that has an obvious answer, and what the obvious answer actually is. Looking at His first question, I'm not certain whether it might qualify as a rhetorical question, so that doesn't give me any clues concerning that as I'm reading it as a veiled declaration that might translate, "You have no reason to be fearful." But that doesn't necessarily translate the follow-up question to be saying, "You have no faith." because the former translation can be elaborated with the latter with, "You have no reason to be fearful because you have faith."
Jesus certainly didn't have to ask anything. He could've simply stated the truth, but He determined it right to ask those that could not even hide their hearts from Him. Why?
Why were they placing their faith in the wind and the waves (they couldn't have known what the wind or the waves actually had planned for them) when they had the master of the wind and the waves in the boat with them?
Jesus certainly didn't have to ask anything. He could've simply stated the truth, but He determined it right to ask those that could not even hide their hearts from Him. Why?
Why were they placing their faith in the wind and the waves (they couldn't have known what the wind or the waves actually had planned for them) when they had the master of the wind and the waves in the boat with them?
David was a believer under the old covenant. He did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus came that we might have life. He is that life. If we have the Son, we have the Life. John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24. Eternal life is just that, eternal. And that Life is the Holy Spirit.
"You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness." Romans 8:9 & 10.
"For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2
"Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24. Eternal life is just that, eternal. And that Life is the Holy Spirit.
"You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness." Romans 8:9 & 10.
"For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2
A person who turns to the devil was not saved in the first place.
"They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:19
Judas was not saved. He was a thief even while with the disciples.
Justification under the Old Covenant was by faith just as it is now under the New Covenant, both were/are conditional.
As regards Eternal Life, it is not something we have independent from God. It is something we partake of in relationship with Him.
If that relationship is broken by persistent unbelief or disobedience, we lose Eternal Life.
'If anyone does not abide (remain) in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned' Jn 15:6.
Food for thought. There's no indication that sacrifices ever stopped until the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 AD. So if you're reading Hebrews as people "went back" to sacrifices, that's actually incorrect. Hebrews is arguing peoples beliefs went from salvation through God, to salvation through sacrifices. It's a belief correction. There's evidence in acts that the disciples still sacrificed and so did Paul. Here's an example about Paul:
Acts 21:24- Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
Shaving your head was part of the Nazarite vow. The ending of the Nazarite vow includes a sacrifice.
Numbers 6:13-15 - “‘Now this is the law of the Nazirite when the period of their dedication is over. They are to be brought to the entrance to the tent of meeting. 14;There they are to present their offerings to the Lord: a year-old male lamb without defect for a burnt offering, a year-old ewe lamb without defect for a sin offering, a ram without defect for a fellowship offering, 15;together with their grain offerings and drink offerings, and a basket of bread made with the finest flour and without yeast—thick loaves with olive oil mixed in, and thin loaves brushed with olive oil.
So there's your "purification rights" so that the Jews see he is still in obedience with the law. And what did Paul do?
Acts 21:26 - The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.
So, if even Paul continued after Christ, then you have to conclude the commonly held belief of the reason God instituted sacrifices in the first place (to pay for sins) is incorrect. Otherwise, Paul would be in serious error here and if that's the case, why did God never correct him?
Acts 21:24- Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.
Shaving your head was part of the Nazarite vow. The ending of the Nazarite vow includes a sacrifice.
Numbers 6:13-15 - “‘Now this is the law of the Nazirite when the period of their dedication is over. They are to be brought to the entrance to the tent of meeting. 14;There they are to present their offerings to the Lord: a year-old male lamb without defect for a burnt offering, a year-old ewe lamb without defect for a sin offering, a ram without defect for a fellowship offering, 15;together with their grain offerings and drink offerings, and a basket of bread made with the finest flour and without yeast—thick loaves with olive oil mixed in, and thin loaves brushed with olive oil.
So there's your "purification rights" so that the Jews see he is still in obedience with the law. And what did Paul do?
Acts 21:26 - The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.
So, if even Paul continued after Christ, then you have to conclude the commonly held belief of the reason God instituted sacrifices in the first place (to pay for sins) is incorrect. Otherwise, Paul would be in serious error here and if that's the case, why did God never correct him?
You are still ignoring the two locations of the use of the apostate one in the old and one in the new and two locations for the phrase being blotted out one in the old and one in the new and all of these examples it is indicative of somebody once saved being blotted out of The Book of Life you have not explained this away with a philosophical take on forgiveness
Well you missed my exact point in what I was saying I'm not talking about somebody who was not saved I'm talking about somebody who was saved this very popular verse that you quoted is not applicable for what I am putting forth
John 5:24 says that that the one is hearing (present tense - Greek) and who is believing (present tense - Greek) is having (present tense - Greek) eternal life. Are you hearing and believing? if yes = you have eternal life Are you hearing and believing? no = you do not have eternal life
Nothing in that verse says the person who is not hearing or believing has eternal life.
Nothing in that verse says that once a person has faith in Jesus he will always have faith in Jesus.
In the phrase "eternal life' the word life is the noun and thus is the foundation of the definition. Jesus said "I am the life." John 17:4 gives the definition of "eternal life" = to know God and to know Jesus. If you don't know Jesus you do not have eternal life.
I agree. But once you have eternal life, you cannot lose it. The life that Jesus spoke of when He said, "He who loses his life....." (Matthew 10:39) is not talking about eternal life. The life Jesus spoke of is the life in the soul. That life is not eternal. It is the life we inherit from Adam. The spirit of the man is born again, not the soul. And that is the part of the believer that is eternal.
The soul and the spirit are not the same. There are three salvations, the spirit which is instant and eternal, the soul which is a lifetime process and the physical body, which will be changed when our life on earth comes to an end.
We are not born again one minute and unborn again the next. It is of God that we are in Christ Jesus.
Greek is much more precise than English. There are three words for "life" in Greek, each with a different meaning. And this has lead to much confusion.
The soul and the spirit are not the same. There are three salvations, the spirit which is instant and eternal, the soul which is a lifetime process and the physical body, which will be changed when our life on earth comes to an end.
We are not born again one minute and unborn again the next. It is of God that we are in Christ Jesus.
Greek is much more precise than English. There are three words for "life" in Greek, each with a different meaning. And this has lead to much confusion.
If one says that "once you have eternal life, you cannot lose it," then you are saying that once you know God and have a relationship with him, you cannot lose that relationship. Life (zoe) is to know (ginosko = experience) God. Zoe (life) is experiencing Jesus (a relationship).
My own experience and all of Christian history has many examples of people who (at least from a human standpoint) seemed to have a relationship with Jesus, and then lost it, and in many cases flatly denied that they wanted a relationship with God, or even denied that there is a God. How do you explain these people who lost relationship with God? I suppose one option that some choose is to stand in judgment of such people and say that they never were believers. James 4:12, however, clearly says that God alone is the one who determines eternal destiny. That is not in man's position to judge. The position that I take is simply that the one who is believing in Jesus has eternal life, and the one who rejects the Son has God's wrath abiding on him (Johne 3:36).
I know you're not replying to me but the issue is not about being able to lose it it's whether or not you can throw it away I contend that it can be thrown away not lost
There are three kinds of people who go to church: believers, unbelievers and make believers. Surveys show that about 4% of those who attend church are born again. Many churchgoers have a concept of Christ rather than a relationship.
You cannot lose relationship. You can lose fellowship when you sin. John said this: "They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:19
There is a deal of confusion about judging. There is judging as in a court of law. Christians are not to engage in that. There is judging in the sense of discerning, as a doctor will do to come up with a diagnosis. That is not only permissible but necessary for the well being of the church.
1 Corinthians 2:15 "The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment."
I've met many who made the claim to be Christian but it's all for show. I detested church because of my teenage experiences with what was called church where I lived. It took me quite a while to realise that some unsaved people willingly attended church. So I assumed that only the saved went. That led to confusion. Now I understand a little better.
You cannot lose relationship. You can lose fellowship when you sin. John said this: "They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:19
There is a deal of confusion about judging. There is judging as in a court of law. Christians are not to engage in that. There is judging in the sense of discerning, as a doctor will do to come up with a diagnosis. That is not only permissible but necessary for the well being of the church.
1 Corinthians 2:15 "The spiritual man judges all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment."
I've met many who made the claim to be Christian but it's all for show. I detested church because of my teenage experiences with what was called church where I lived. It took me quite a while to realise that some unsaved people willingly attended church. So I assumed that only the saved went. That led to confusion. Now I understand a little better.
Some confusion about when salvation can occur if one confuses the gospel of the kingdom for the nation of Israel with the individual gospel of grace for gentiles and Jews.
Those of Israel would look forward to eternal life at their resurrection. Those that come to salvation by the gospel of grace receive eternal life immediately upon faith.
Those of Israel would look forward to eternal life at their resurrection. Those that come to salvation by the gospel of grace receive eternal life immediately upon faith.
A person is a tripartite being. When God told Adam that he would surely die if he eats the forbidden fruit, God was speaking about his spirit because Adam continued to live in his soul even after he ate the fruit. So, what does it mean? It means that the spirit of Adam died, and not his soul. So, when Jesus saved us, he resurrected our dead spirit back to life. This is mentioned in Eph. 2:1 which says that God made us alive who were dead in trespasses and sins. When exactly did God quicken us or made us alive? It is when we confessed Jesus Christ as our Lord and believed in our heart that God raised him from the dead as mentioned in Rom. 10:9 According to 1 John 4:15, it is at this point we received the Holy Spirit within us. I would call this as the salvation of our spirit. The salvation of our spirit is permanent as per Rom. 5:19. Just as we did not have any role to play to become sinners when we inherited the sin of Adam, so also we do not play any role to be righteous as we inherit the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
The second part of a person is the soul. The blood of Jesus was the atonement for our soul. According to Lev. 17:11, it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. So, how is our soul saved? According to Rom. 5:9 and Rom. 3:25, our soul is saved when we place our faith in the blood of Jesus. I would call this as the salvation of our soul. The salvation of our soul is not permanent but conditional on us cooperating with the Holy Spirit to keep it sanctified. This cooperation is done by means of praise, worship, meditating on the Word of God, speaking in tongues etc. In other words, we must keep feeding our spirit man and make him stronger that may not disobey God in anything.
The third part of a person is the body. In John 3:6, Jesus said that a person born in the flesh will have fleshly behavior while a person born in the spirit will have spiritual character. Therefore, it is essential that the physical person must be put to death and the spiritual person must be brought to life. This is done through water baptism. Rom. 6:3 says that when we were water baptized, we were baptized in the death of Jesus. In other words, our physical body that inherited the sin and curse of Adam was put to death. This is clearly mentioned in Rom. 6:6-7.
According to Rom. 6:11, we must live as if we are dead people and the only person living in us is Christ as mentioned in Gal. 2:20. At this point, we are saved in our spirit, soul, and body. If we ever fall into sin, 1 John 1:9 says that we must confess our sins to get right with God again. Also, we must partake of the communion to seal the forgiveness as mentioned in 1 Cor. 11:23-29 which signifies passover where the judgment of God passed over the children of Israel because of the blood. This process of cooperating with the Holy Spirit must continue until the end of our lives. This is how we receive salvation.
The second part of a person is the soul. The blood of Jesus was the atonement for our soul. According to Lev. 17:11, it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. So, how is our soul saved? According to Rom. 5:9 and Rom. 3:25, our soul is saved when we place our faith in the blood of Jesus. I would call this as the salvation of our soul. The salvation of our soul is not permanent but conditional on us cooperating with the Holy Spirit to keep it sanctified. This cooperation is done by means of praise, worship, meditating on the Word of God, speaking in tongues etc. In other words, we must keep feeding our spirit man and make him stronger that may not disobey God in anything.
The third part of a person is the body. In John 3:6, Jesus said that a person born in the flesh will have fleshly behavior while a person born in the spirit will have spiritual character. Therefore, it is essential that the physical person must be put to death and the spiritual person must be brought to life. This is done through water baptism. Rom. 6:3 says that when we were water baptized, we were baptized in the death of Jesus. In other words, our physical body that inherited the sin and curse of Adam was put to death. This is clearly mentioned in Rom. 6:6-7.
According to Rom. 6:11, we must live as if we are dead people and the only person living in us is Christ as mentioned in Gal. 2:20. At this point, we are saved in our spirit, soul, and body. If we ever fall into sin, 1 John 1:9 says that we must confess our sins to get right with God again. Also, we must partake of the communion to seal the forgiveness as mentioned in 1 Cor. 11:23-29 which signifies passover where the judgment of God passed over the children of Israel because of the blood. This process of cooperating with the Holy Spirit must continue until the end of our lives. This is how we receive salvation.
In other words........Screw my kids, I now hate them and will send them to their eternal death.
What great fathers we have nowadays.