OSAS, When does salvation take place?

[Cameron143]

remember what James said about works?, the right kind of works? no you dont. have you ever read James?

I don't believe you followed the discussion well. Another poster said Paul both advocated for works of the law and did not at the same time.

 

[Drich]

Thank you for the clarification. I think it's important to understand what others mean and consider different perspectives. That's not always easy in a written forum.

I just picked up my Bible and randomly opened it up. The Holy Spirit brought my eyes immediately to Matthew 7:21

What is my position? what is the argument you think I am trying to make?

 

[Drich]

I read something that said the Greek word translated "in" is much stronger than a superficial acceptance of a fact. It is more believing to the point of commitment. He said that it should be believe "into".

1. in a true translation the word is translated 'He/him' as the greek word is O'ho which is a pronoun or definate article . Let's look 'into' the greek:

ὁ ho, ho; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom):—the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

The words the, this, that, one, he, she, and it belong to different parts of speech depending on how they are used in a sentence, primarily acting as [Articles/Determiners, Pronouns], or [Demonstratives]. [1, 2, 3]

• The: [Definite Article] (a specific type of determiner that modifies a noun).
  1. This and That: [Demonstrative Determiners] (when placed before a noun, like "this book") or [Demonstrative Pronouns] (when standing alone, like "this is good").
  2. One: [Indefinite Pronoun] (when replacing a noun, like "I want that one") [Number], or [Determiner].
• He, She, and It: [Personal Pronouns] (specifically subject pronouns that replace nouns)​

G3588 - ho - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

G3588 - ὁ ho, ho; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom):—the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Meaning the greek word O'ho can be translated into any definite article that fits the grammar of the language it is being translated in, and the agenda/context of the one doing the translation.

So, no, in the strictest sense translating "O'ho" can not be translated into the word into, as it is being used as a pronoun, and a stronger translation would be the word "He/Him." Which is probably why the NIV translated this word in the passage into the word 'Him.'

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

So the command is not to believe in Jesus, but rather to believe in God (Him) who has sent Jesus. Because contextually Jesus primary purpose in this passage is not to describe a path to eternal life, but to bring the idea that Jesus is in direct contact with the Father and that He and the Father share the same thoughts and ideas concerning His worship.

I say all of this to point out that salvation takes more than simple belief/acknowledgement in Jesus.

 

[Drich]

Did they believe and trust in Jesus? It's doesn't say that. They listed of their works.

None of which where possible without intervention of the Holy Spirit. Or do you think preaching in His NAME, and performing MANY Miracles happens without the endorsement/support of the Holy Spirit?

They believed their works would save them.

No, They believed Jesus would save them. That is why they Cried out to Him Lord, Lord!

Linguistic and Cultural Meaning

• • Master and Authority: The Greek word for Lord (kyrios) means master, owner, or ruler. Calling someone "Lord" acknowledges their supreme authority over your life.
  • The Double Vocative: Repeating the word ("Lord, Lord") shows deep emotion, urgency, or intense appeal, much like someone pleading for entry or recognition at the final judgment.
  • Divine Echo: Some scholars note that repeating a title twice mirrors Old Testament forms of address to God (like Adonai YHWH), subtly pointing to Jesus' divine identity. [1, 2, 3, 4]
  • Biblelingustics.com

There are many in the world today and even here who believe that. They placed their belief and trust in themselves.

So you agree with what I said, it takes more than simple belief in the existence of Jesus.

Now the question becomes can you have a relationship with God you need to enter heaven with out the 'work' of Loving God with all of your ability to do so and loving your neighbor as yourself?

 

[NightTwister]

None of which where possible without intervention of the Holy Spirit. Or do you think preaching in His NAME, and performing MANY Miracles happens without the endorsement/support of the Holy Spirit?

No, They believed Jesus would save them. That is why they Cried out to Him Lord, Lord!

Linguistic and Cultural Meaning

• • Master and Authority: The Greek word for Lord (kyrios) means master, owner, or ruler. Calling someone "Lord" acknowledges their supreme authority over your life.
  • The Double Vocative: Repeating the word ("Lord, Lord") shows deep emotion, urgency, or intense appeal, much like someone pleading for entry or recognition at the final judgment.
  • Divine Echo: Some scholars note that repeating a title twice mirrors Old Testament forms of address to God (like Adonai YHWH), subtly pointing to Jesus' divine identity. [1, 2, 3, 4]
  • Biblelingustics.com

So you agree with what I said, it takes more than simple belief in the existence of Jesus.

Now the question becomes can you have a relationship with God you need to enter heaven with out the 'work' of Loving God with all of your ability to do so and loving your neighbor as yourself?

The text doesn't say that. You're bringing your beliefs to the text instead of letting scripture inform your beliefs.