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coby
Guest
Every man praying or prophesying, having*his*head covered, dishonors his head.*5*But every woman who prays or prophesies with*her*head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit*of all
What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit*of all
What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
None of you can answer it, yet I keep posting it. It's plain and simple Bible. Luke 14:26.
I think I am on firm ground when I say that the verses must be interpreted in the context of culture and time in history.
I keep posting that, yes, of course there are eternal and unmovable moral absolutes.
I have pointed out examples in this thread of God making concessions to the times and customs of societies. I am not going to repeat them.
I have asked this before; that if someone can show me, based on concrete irrefutable biblical evidence which is not a exegesis abstract, in which one can show that the bible states unequivocally that woman can not teach or preach, or pastor in times of emergency, or co-pastor or junior pastor, then I will alter my view.
But I am telling you before hand, if you throw quotes at me from what Paul and Timothy and others said from that day, I am going to reply in the context of the times.
The eternal truths described in the bible are moral, ethical, and spiritual. Woman not being allowed to preach, etc. just does not fall into that category.
And by the way the if the bible is silent on a issue, that does not always mean it condemns it.
The question if a man were married twice, can he pastor. Why not? It is out of the realm of possibility that the word is referring to a man who has more then one wife at a time? Or the first wife died or left him? Or how about this possibility, here is a novel one; he did divorce his first wife, but that man has a truly repentant heart and is forgiven by Jesus, has made himself of value to the church. So are you saying that the church can not forgive him? Or worse yet that they shouldn't?
I think that a lot of the reasoning of why woman can't do this or that is tradition. And while tradition is not always a bad thing, sometimes it can devolve into destructive dogma. Jesus was considered a radical in the time He came. He broke a lot of tradition. He berated the Pharisees because of their legalism and hard hearts.
I keep posting that, yes, of course there are eternal and unmovable moral absolutes.
I have pointed out examples in this thread of God making concessions to the times and customs of societies. I am not going to repeat them.
I have asked this before; that if someone can show me, based on concrete irrefutable biblical evidence which is not a exegesis abstract, in which one can show that the bible states unequivocally that woman can not teach or preach, or pastor in times of emergency, or co-pastor or junior pastor, then I will alter my view.
But I am telling you before hand, if you throw quotes at me from what Paul and Timothy and others said from that day, I am going to reply in the context of the times.
The eternal truths described in the bible are moral, ethical, and spiritual. Woman not being allowed to preach, etc. just does not fall into that category.
And by the way the if the bible is silent on a issue, that does not always mean it condemns it.
The question if a man were married twice, can he pastor. Why not? It is out of the realm of possibility that the word is referring to a man who has more then one wife at a time? Or the first wife died or left him? Or how about this possibility, here is a novel one; he did divorce his first wife, but that man has a truly repentant heart and is forgiven by Jesus, has made himself of value to the church. So are you saying that the church can not forgive him? Or worse yet that they shouldn't?
I think that a lot of the reasoning of why woman can't do this or that is tradition. And while tradition is not always a bad thing, sometimes it can devolve into destructive dogma. Jesus was considered a radical in the time He came. He broke a lot of tradition. He berated the Pharisees because of their legalism and hard hearts.
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Hey the times are changing, now society accepts Homo's, should we now allow Homo's to be Pastor's?
I am not implying that and I think you know that. I am not saying that their is moral relativism. Your actually supporting my point. This is a exact example of what I just wrote. A sin that is unalterable in time and space; sexual immorality. A dictate, a opinion, not even classified as a sin, is what Paul wrote in the context of the issues regarding woman in the church in the day.
How is it disobeying God and how is it sinful to for a woman to teach, preach, or junior pastor? I just can't believe you are comparing what I am saying to sexual immorality.
It is actually border line insulting to woman that you would compare the sin of homosexuality to woman pastors. How do you make that link??
The bible says homosexuality is wrong, the bible says a woman can't teach men.... what's the difference, the bible in plain easy to understand English say don't do both. So what's makes one different than the other?
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coby
Guest
If the women have to be silent and not teach they can't do the kid's service anymore. That's church. I would refuse and let the men do it LOL.
The Bible says it. No teaching. Submissive silence. Hey that's awesome! Good luck with the kids men!
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Chuckt
Guest
How can you prove that any of this Bible was written to us if they are just letters or books of authors?
How do you prove it is from God and what parts are for us and what parts aren't?
And when you look at the Bible from history, which parts are for them and which parts are for us?
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: - 2 Timothy 3:16
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
In the Greek it literally says "all writings God breathed". When we take the history view of the Bible then it is just for them and not for us but God breathed out the scriptures which are old and new testament.
1 Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward. Paul links scripture with Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7 because "...men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost."
Paul linked an Old Testament verse with a New Testament verse and called them scripture.
That makes the Old and New Testament scripture.
So when Paul says that all scripture is given by inspiration of God then all the history is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and instruction in righteousness.
When we look at the Bible as "history" then we alienate it from the author God who breathed the instructions to us.
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Chuckt
Guest
If you can pick and choose which verses to follow, why can't I? Jefferson basically had his own Bible where he cut out what he didn't like. The same goes for scholars of the Jesus Seminar who voted and chose which parts of the Bible are true or not.
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coby
Guest
Here is how you should test the conviction of your beliefs. If your wife told you she was going to preach, would you divorce her? The bible talks about disobedient wives...
"Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives. "(1 Peter 3:1)
You love the Lord, and want to obey him right?
So tell me that the act of your wife as a co-pastor (or is that cold pasta?) is so horrendous in your site that you would forbid it and take it to its end.
You could actually look her in the eye with conviction and say that you would alter your relationship with her over that?
What if she said no sex? I bet a lot of men would change their minds fairly quick. Because then many would mull over it and actually realize, that the argument is not all that rational, or Christ like. Not all of them would, but a lot would. So much for staunch beliefs.
"Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives. "(1 Peter 3:1)
You love the Lord, and want to obey him right?
So tell me that the act of your wife as a co-pastor (or is that cold pasta?) is so horrendous in your site that you would forbid it and take it to its end.
You could actually look her in the eye with conviction and say that you would alter your relationship with her over that?
What if she said no sex? I bet a lot of men would change their minds fairly quick. Because then many would mull over it and actually realize, that the argument is not all that rational, or Christ like. Not all of them would, but a lot would. So much for staunch beliefs.
You keep repeating... yourself without answering me in regards to what I asked for as proof in my previous text. I admire your wanting to stand up for the bible, but your not doing that. You either do not understand what I am saying, or are just ignoring me because you can't answer my challenge in a way that will disprove me. I am with you in defending God's word. But you are seriously misguided.
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Chuckt
Guest
Wives can treat us horribly and the only recourse for divorce is adultery or desertion as indicated in the Bible.
So yes, if my wife says, "no sex" then it isn't a reason to divorce her and God hates divorce.
I am not going against God's word. Actually you are. A little bit of knowledge is more dangerous then no knowledge. At least the ignorant realize they not to be taught.