PASTOR CRISIS
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Yeah, I look at my posts and realize how harsh I can be toward the modern-day pastor. It's just that I want things to go back to the way it was before the corporatization of the church. I think that if the pastors could work like Jesus did and make real disciples out of about 8-10 people, they would free up alot of their time for bigger projects. After all, isn't that what Paul did?
In other words, I would like to see pastors make disciples so those disciples can make even more disciples. Wouldn't that be great!
In other words, I would like to see pastors make disciples so those disciples can make even more disciples. Wouldn't that be great!
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I beg to differ. Didn't he say, "Go, and make disciples?" That kinda sounds like a command to me. The question is, how many churches in North America are doing that on a consistent basis?"
I think I may have missed that part of scripture. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I have not read that in the bible. I would appreciate it if you would point me in the right direction. Thanks
I think I may have missed that part of scripture. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I have not read that in the bible. I would appreciate it if you would point me in the right direction. Thanks
What I meant was, how we gather as believers. It has vastly changed since the Book of Acts. Some people look to that as this is how we should gather, others say, the way we gather now is the only way to gather. There is no one way of doing so.
That's because it's not recorded in the bible. I read it in a book of global Christian history. Christians were always known for singing when they got together so I guess that's one thing that hasn't changed hehe
That's because it's not recorded in the bible. I read it in a book of global Christian history. Christians were always known for singing when they got together so I guess that's one thing that hasn't changed hehe
I don't doubt that. But what is it that they are spending so much time on?
I would submit that they are so overworked with putting on a "church show," than in ministry. I know there are weddings, funerals, and hospital visits. I have, on the other hand, seen churches with up to four pastors who may be able to share the load.
I understand that the typical pastor puts a lot of time into prepping the Sunday sermon. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to spend that time with individual discipleship counseling. That would include letting go of the "Sunday services," and instead, setting up a no-hassle, Sunday fellowship where everyone brings a dish and shares food and good company.
I've also heard over and over the argument that, if we spend $1Million and only one persona gets saved, it is well worth it. I actually agree with that. But wouldn't it be better if we only spent $1 to lead someone to Christ, and then used the other $999, 000 to start a food bank?
I feel like our new millennial pastors are over-reaching. This longing to save the entire world by themselves has led to the disenfranchisement of their congregations. People are leaving the North American churches in droves while churches are being planted elsewhere. That would be great if our churches in the developed world were growing, but they are not.
No matter how wealthy we are in our home nation, the spiritual needs of the individual don't go away. In fact, I believe the richer we are, the more we need to be on guard (remember what Jesus taught us about a camel going through the eye of a needle).
I would submit that they are so overworked with putting on a "church show," than in ministry. I know there are weddings, funerals, and hospital visits. I have, on the other hand, seen churches with up to four pastors who may be able to share the load.
I understand that the typical pastor puts a lot of time into prepping the Sunday sermon. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to spend that time with individual discipleship counseling. That would include letting go of the "Sunday services," and instead, setting up a no-hassle, Sunday fellowship where everyone brings a dish and shares food and good company.
I've also heard over and over the argument that, if we spend $1Million and only one persona gets saved, it is well worth it. I actually agree with that. But wouldn't it be better if we only spent $1 to lead someone to Christ, and then used the other $999, 000 to start a food bank?
I feel like our new millennial pastors are over-reaching. This longing to save the entire world by themselves has led to the disenfranchisement of their congregations. People are leaving the North American churches in droves while churches are being planted elsewhere. That would be great if our churches in the developed world were growing, but they are not.
No matter how wealthy we are in our home nation, the spiritual needs of the individual don't go away. In fact, I believe the richer we are, the more we need to be on guard (remember what Jesus taught us about a camel going through the eye of a needle).
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I said at the beginning that I knew why the pastors are in crisis. All your comments have been interesting and worth a read, except a couple, and some of you have alluded to what I believe is the situation. You can disagree with me here but I believe that the problems are of our own making because of disobedience of the leadership of the church.
1. If you read the New Testament regarding the leadership of the church, not once and I mean not once does it say that a pastor leads the church. Even more it does not indicate that is a ministry for a pastor alone. The seminal verses about leadership in the church is Timothy and Titus plus there are 23 other verses that talk about leadership of the church.
2. In Timothy, the leadership of the church is male and plural. In Titus it is the same. The 23 verses that refer to leadership refer to apostles, prophets and Elders. it does not mention pastors once. If that is not as plain as day I don't know what is.
3. The idea that Debra was a leader in the Old Testament, that Priscilla was joint leader of a home group and that Junias was referred to as an apostle (which she/he wasn't) being the evidence for female leadership of the church is ludicrous bearing in mind all the other references to church leadership.
4. People who want to use these examples for church leadership are drawing a very long bow to make their dogma resonate. As far as Junia is concerned we don't even know if she/he was male or female so that knocks that example for six.
5. In Ephesians 4 v 11 it is clear that Jesus annointed the church with five distinct ministries. Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Shepherd and Treacher. People say that the shepherd and teacher are one and the same. Not so. The temperament needed for these two ministries are polar opposites so no one could perform both with success. They will either be a good teacher but a poor shepherd, or a good shepherd and a poor teacher.
6. I am a teacher but a hopeless shepherd so I don't get involved in that ministry as it would probably mean I would make a mess of it.
7. If God gave five ministries to the church, why do we think we can do it all with one?
8. The New Testament teaches the priesthood of all believers. Why do we teach the priesthood of one? The pastor.
9. The New Testament Church met in homes where every joint supplied (priesthood of all believers). We meet in impersonal buildings to facilitate the pastor joint.
10. No one was paid a salary in the New Testament Church. When you have the priesthood of all believers you don't need to. Today, nearly every church pays someone to make the decisions. In other words he/she is a manager not a ministry.
11. In the NTC all leadership was male. Today in most churches the leadership has been invaded by women on the basis of equality which is never mentioned in scripture.
12. The NTC met for fellowship, meals, teaching and prayer. We meet together to have fellowship with the back of people's heads.
I could add many more but that will do for a start. Until we address these issues with the church we will remain non descript and innefective. A social club to keep our followers happy.
1. If you read the New Testament regarding the leadership of the church, not once and I mean not once does it say that a pastor leads the church. Even more it does not indicate that is a ministry for a pastor alone. The seminal verses about leadership in the church is Timothy and Titus plus there are 23 other verses that talk about leadership of the church.
2. In Timothy, the leadership of the church is male and plural. In Titus it is the same. The 23 verses that refer to leadership refer to apostles, prophets and Elders. it does not mention pastors once. If that is not as plain as day I don't know what is.
3. The idea that Debra was a leader in the Old Testament, that Priscilla was joint leader of a home group and that Junias was referred to as an apostle (which she/he wasn't) being the evidence for female leadership of the church is ludicrous bearing in mind all the other references to church leadership.
4. People who want to use these examples for church leadership are drawing a very long bow to make their dogma resonate. As far as Junia is concerned we don't even know if she/he was male or female so that knocks that example for six.
5. In Ephesians 4 v 11 it is clear that Jesus annointed the church with five distinct ministries. Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Shepherd and Treacher. People say that the shepherd and teacher are one and the same. Not so. The temperament needed for these two ministries are polar opposites so no one could perform both with success. They will either be a good teacher but a poor shepherd, or a good shepherd and a poor teacher.
6. I am a teacher but a hopeless shepherd so I don't get involved in that ministry as it would probably mean I would make a mess of it.
7. If God gave five ministries to the church, why do we think we can do it all with one?
8. The New Testament teaches the priesthood of all believers. Why do we teach the priesthood of one? The pastor.
9. The New Testament Church met in homes where every joint supplied (priesthood of all believers). We meet in impersonal buildings to facilitate the pastor joint.
10. No one was paid a salary in the New Testament Church. When you have the priesthood of all believers you don't need to. Today, nearly every church pays someone to make the decisions. In other words he/she is a manager not a ministry.
11. In the NTC all leadership was male. Today in most churches the leadership has been invaded by women on the basis of equality which is never mentioned in scripture.
12. The NTC met for fellowship, meals, teaching and prayer. We meet together to have fellowship with the back of people's heads.
I could add many more but that will do for a start. Until we address these issues with the church we will remain non descript and innefective. A social club to keep our followers happy.
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I always felt like my old church was just a meeting of the country club. They had a Saturday night service led by a psychiatrist..which sounded more like a church meeting with people going because they have problems..the problem I had was the psychiatric bent to it. Either God can solve your problems or He can’t.
And ya...why we think that the pastor has to do it all is puzzling...but I also lean towards the idea that he wants to do it all and be the head of the church...maybe a pride/ego thing. We all want to do it our own way.
And ya...why we think that the pastor has to do it all is puzzling...but I also lean towards the idea that he wants to do it all and be the head of the church...maybe a pride/ego thing. We all want to do it our own way.
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in all my years of 'churches', I have truly known of only one' 'pastor' of a church that I think would
qualify as a 'true-pastor', and he whole-heartedly put himself 'out there and on the line' for all of
his immediate congregation, and for multiple others who weren't part of his home-fold -
I would see him or run into him in places that I would not have expected so many times and most
of them were in hospitals or homes - any hour, and day, and there would be (((Pastor Charlie)))!!!
qualify as a 'true-pastor', and he whole-heartedly put himself 'out there and on the line' for all of
his immediate congregation, and for multiple others who weren't part of his home-fold -
I would see him or run into him in places that I would not have expected so many times and most
of them were in hospitals or homes - any hour, and day, and there would be (((Pastor Charlie)))!!!
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Yes, this is very troubling to see. there are many reasons why but there are a few paramount that are the real cause. THe few issues caused the majority of the 13 listed if not all.
- The pastor made ministry more important than his family
- The Pastor can't pray with his family if they feel the "Church " is more important than they are meaning the job.
- the Pastor was not called to Pastor and the fellowship they are associated with did not mentor properly. Many young Pastors want a new church but did not work to support the one that they were under with thAT PASTOR. Therefore they have it hard.
- Pastor is fighting in the flesh and not on his knees. the pastor is trying to cause growth instead of following the HS to win souls and equip the church for ministries.
- Your family should be the closes you have
- in this day you have to cut off what is not supported not try to keep all times and seasons example: if the church doesn't support the work that work goes away that must be told to the church. YOu want preschool, children's, women's, men's ministries you must support it.
- see #1 and 2
- see # 3 & 4
- see# 1 & 2
- Comprised the word of God not properly teaching to the pews
- see # 1, 2, 6
- see #1, 2, 3, 4,
- we are in the time of the great falling away and the entering of the last days. Many are running to a feel-good message