Pastoral requirements

[ClayPot]

I believe that scripture is clear about the qualifications of Church leadership and their character and the goal of their calling. A good place to start is Eph 4:11-16. You will note that I changed the text to read more in line with the Greek. "Pastor-teacher" is a better rendering of the original text.

In order for a MAN to fill that role, HE must be a man of the Word. My first question for any candidate is "How many times have you read from Gen to Rev in your life. If he hasn't then he goes the way of most of Gideon's warriors. Not needed.

Eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors-teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the 5edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to qa perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

 

[JohnDB]

The J-O-B of being a pastor is not very confusing as to the decision making portion. You just have to do the "of course" things and then you likely will have success and a successful church.

You have a main service with music, prayer, plate passing, and sermon. Then you have small group Bible studies (Sunday School) where adults can make friends within the congregation.

You also have outreach programs to serve the community with services for the poor, or disadvantaged and the elderly and of course the children. Maybe even missionary support for those visiting second and third world nations.

Stay within budgets for everything and all goes according to plan.

For most people without any severe mental health issues this is extremely doable. And that's the usual culprit for most church failures. Mental health issues. For whatever reason, leadership in church attracts people with mental health issues. It certainly brings them out if unnoticed before. Sexual sins and extravagant lifestyles seem to be the norm anymore than the exception. The Church membership is usually extremely demanding. For some inane reason members think they need to preach to the pastor or call him at 2AM to settle an argument/financial dispute with their spouse, sibling, or friend demanding his physical presence to do so.

Then there's the million and one requests to play with the Church's financial resources in some idiotic fashion....purchase of worthless property or invest reserves in something or to purchase a book published in a vanity press. All with threats of leaving and taking a substantial portion of the membership with them if they don't comply.

 

[ClayPot]

JohnDB - and your church will be just like all the rest social functions. A Called Shepherd should fight against it for all he is worth and only God's pushing and insisting will force him into it. 90% are career ministers looking for a job.

 

[JohnDB]

JohnDB - and your church will be just like all the rest social functions. A Called Shepherd should fight against it for all he is worth and only God's pushing and insisting will force him into it. 90% are career ministers looking for a job.

Yeah....
Most have attended seminary before taking a leadership role.
The seminaries are cranking more out than the current need is. (Of all denominations)

Non-denominational, Baptist, and Church of Christ all independently and individually hire their pastors. I think AOG and COG does as well. Most others don't.
These are the ones that get flooded with CVs and videos. Literally flooded. One small advertisement and 100,000 CVs instantly show up.

Most churches won't hire a non-pulpited pastor. They have no qualms about stealing one away though. Kinda weird but just been my experience.

Pastoral search committees are notoriously slow and kind of quirky. Most don't know how to do the job and for whatever reason when they can't actually get it accomplished inside a year they don't get replaced. (Which should be a by-law in their charter)

I've seen some REALLY dumb things come out of these committees over the decades...never been really well done mostly.

 

[ClayPot]

I agree with you. Most by far MOST pulpit committees have no clue. I think I said Eph 4:11-12 is a shepherd's job description. If a mam/shepherd is not consumed with his own personal learning of God's Word, I'm suspect. I'm really getting grumpy with leaders in Churches today. I call myself a Church Orphan. I will not go to Church to Play in the Social life, or check off the calendar an attendance check. I'm getting to grumpy.

 

[NightTwister]

I would say if they started at Genesis 1:1 and actually read the Bible from one end to the other.. Why?,, if you remember how hard it was in school to convince the teacher you had actually read the book when you turned in your book report it just jumps right out. Then again to all those just sitting in the pews listening to their preachers preach they wouldn't have any idea if their preacher had ever read it or not unless they had read it their own selves...

The lowest grade on the final about a book I never read in school was an A- ... all you had to do was listen in class and you knew what was going on.

 

[ClayPot]

I'm not going to engage in the "did you read it or not" game. If the man's heart is not in the passion to comune with the Creator of this World, then sit in the back row.

 

[Chaps]

JohnDB - and your church will be just like all the rest social functions. A Called Shepherd should fight against it for all he is worth and only God's pushing and insisting will force him into it. 90% are career ministers looking for a job.

That’s quite an accusation. Where did you get the 90% figure? My guess is you came up with it out of your own imagination. I’d say most people spend the extraordinary time studying in Seminary and take low paying pastoral jobs because they want to make a difference, help people and believe in the importance of Scripture in people’s lives.

 

[Chaps]

Yeah....
Most have attended seminary before taking a leadership role.
The seminaries are cranking more out than the current need is. (Of all denominations)

Non-denominational, Baptist, and Church of Christ all independently and individually hire their pastors. I think AOG and COG does as well. Most others don't.
These are the ones that get flooded with CVs and videos. Literally flooded. One small advertisement and 100,000 CVs instantly show up.

Most churches won't hire a non-pulpited pastor. They have no qualms about stealing one away though. Kinda weird but just been my experience.

Pastoral search committees are notoriously slow and kind of quirky. Most don't know how to do the job and for whatever reason when they can't actually get it accomplished inside a year they don't get replaced. (Which should be a by-law in their charter)

I've seen some REALLY dumb things come out of these committees over the decades...never been really well done mostly.

Where do you get this information? As I understand it, churches are dying, bible colleges are closing and there aren’t enough pastors taking up leadership roles in local churches. I think many churches are hesitant to hire inexperienced pastors because they have been burned by people who come in with all the answers and no experience working with people. There are a lot of people who know the Bible but have little ability to teach, preach or work with people in a constructive way. There is a reason Paul says that elders should be someone of good repute. I get it, it’s tough to get a first job…and small churches can be very difficult to work with. However, pulpit committees generally consist of people who want to make sure that a new pastor will be someone who will be a good fit for their local congregation and not someone who is gonna come in and start overturning tables

 

[JohnDB]

Where do you get this information? As I understand it, churches are dying, bible colleges are closing and there aren’t enough pastors taking up leadership roles in local churches. I think many churches are hesitant to hire inexperienced pastors because they have been burned by people who come in with all the answers and no experience working with people. There are a lot of people who know the Bible but have little ability to teach, preach or work with people in a constructive way. There is a reason Paul says that elders should be someone of good repute. I get it, it’s tough to get a first job…and small churches can be very difficult to work with. However, pulpit committees generally consist of people who want to make sure that a new pastor will be someone who will be a good fit for their local congregation and not someone who is gonna come in and start overturning tables

Here in America we have an epidemic of narcissistic tendencies. So pastors fresh out of Seminary want senior pastor positions.
Then we have current models where there is a board of directors that actually run the church and the senior pastor is not much more than a performer....he gives a great sermon but can't deal with people. Associate pastors deal with people...albeit poorly quite often because they are basically unsupervised. (I got lots of stories surrounding this)

Sure, attendance is down in a lot of mega churches...but small churches seem to be doing the same. It's basically fallout from the pandemic. People still keep catching Covid when they gather in large groups.

Bible colleges are NOT closing...one closed in the US because the program was poorly run, poorly done and the graduates couldn't preach.
Many of the seminaries are being used as platforms for ideologies instead of allowing the theologies to develop organically. IOW not teaching hermeneutics but teaching such classes as church finance, building program 101, outreach 102, Small group literature buying, music ministry, videography and how to use sermon helps.

Go look at the curriculum of a Seminary and see what is listed there.
Things like Hebrew grammar and writing styles and Koine Greek are missing....no Ancient Near East Anthropology courses...nothing pertaining to hermeneutics or how to use the various resources available.

 

[ClayPot]

That’s quite an accusation. Where did you get the 90% figure? My guess is you came up with it out of your own imagination. I’d say most people spend the extraordinary time studying in Seminary and take low paying pastoral jobs because they want to make a difference, help people and believe in the importance of Scripture in people’s lives.

I came up with the 90% based on my age at 76 and the number of Churches we have attended, and the problems we have encountered while sitting on or chairing Church Boards. Your summary says nothing about the human "Why's" of a pastor's reasoning for his career choice. Read through the Major and Minor prophets and see what they say about shepherds' missed calling.

 

[ClayPot]

Where do you get this information? As I understand it, churches are dying, bible colleges are closing and there aren’t enough pastors taking up leadership roles in local churches. I think many churches are hesitant to hire inexperienced pastors because they have been burned by people who come in with all the answers and no experience working with people. There are a lot of people who know the Bible but have little ability to teach, preach or work with people in a constructive way. There is a reason Paul says that elders should be someone of good repute. I get it, it’s tough to get a first job…and small churches can be very difficult to work with. However, pulpit committees generally consist of people who want to make sure that a new pastor will be someone who will be a good fit for their local congregation and not someone who is gonna come in and start overturning tables

Pulpit Committees generally don't know what describes God's Pastoral Call looks like. I'm not interested the the Churches view of the Job Description unless it is clearly lined up with Scripture.

 

[JohnDB]

Pulpit Committees generally don't know what describes God's Pastoral Call looks like. I'm not interested the the Churches view of the Job Description unless it is clearly lined up with Scripture.

The SBC has a LOT of research concerning pastoral searches and what constitutes a successful pastor. The research is available...but that doesn't mean that search committees actually avail themselves of that research.

 

[Chaps]

Here in America we have an epidemic of narcissistic tendencies. So pastors fresh out of Seminary want senior pastor positions.
Then we have current models where there is a board of directors that actually run the church and the senior pastor is not much more than a performer....he gives a great sermon but can't deal with people. Associate pastors deal with people...albeit poorly quite often because they are basically unsupervised. (I got lots of stories surrounding this)

Sure, attendance is down in a lot of mega churches...but small churches seem to be doing the same. It's basically fallout from the pandemic. People still keep catching Covid when they gather in large groups.

Bible colleges are NOT closing...one closed in the US because the program was poorly run, poorly done and the graduates couldn't preach.
Many of the seminaries are being used as platforms for ideologies instead of allowing the theologies to develop organically. IOW not teaching hermeneutics but teaching such classes as church finance, building program 101, outreach 102, Small group literature buying, music ministry, videography and how to use sermon helps.

Go look at the curriculum of a Seminary and see what is listed there.
Things like Hebrew grammar and writing styles and Koine Greek are missing....no Ancient Near East Anthropology courses...nothing pertaining to hermeneutics or how to use the various resources available.

Strange…not sure your denomination, but I live in America and that is not my experience. Sounds like whatever church background you are a part of does not have a very healthy church polity. The Covid thing is understandable about attendance being down.

However, one of the seminaries I attended closed (Cincinnati Christian University) and I believe Johnson Christian College in Florida also closed. Maybe that’s just more pertaining to seminaries and Bible colleges I am familiar with.

Yeah, I dont know about the seminaries you are familiar with, but I attended 4 different semanaries and none of them taught the types of classes you are talking about. Every seminary I have graduated from (as well as those I considered attending) all taught courses such as hermeneutics, Biblical exegesis, church history, Biblical Lands and Lifeways, various Bible courses covering various books (Romans, Acts, Gospels, Minor Prophets, etc), Greek and Hebrew. In fact, pretty much every ATS accredited college requires both Greek and Hebrew for an MDiv and certainly is a prerequisite for a DMin.

Of course my church background is very Bible-centered, but it doesn’t surprise me that more colleges that hold a lesser view of the accuracy or inerrancy of Scripture would ditch such an emphasis for pragmatic leadership and finance courses. But still, last I checked, any advanced degree from an ATS school is going to have many of these prerequisites…so I suggest that churches start looking for leaders who graduate from ATS accredited schools rather than these diploma mills online.

IMO, those who are frustrated with small or shrinking churches should look into church planting. There are plenty of church planting organizations that can assist with financing and grants for several years for approved candidates to plant churches. Studies show that new churches tend to be more effective and outreach oriented. One of the issues of older churches is they tend to develop a club mentality that serves to please members rather than seek to appeal to and reach those outside the walls of the church. A friend of mine planted a church in Oklahoma. It was a struggle, but they are now running 250-300 after about 7 years and are growing exponentially. I believe the church planting organization he works with is Stadia?

Anyway, there are options out there…and if you are part of a church movement that is performance oriented and is not teaching students to know and love the Word of God, I recommend looking into a different type of church. Bible-centered churches with good leadership models are out there…although granted they are becoming more rare.

 

[Chaps]

Pulpit Committees generally don't know what describes God's Pastoral Call looks like. I'm not interested the the Churches view of the Job Description unless it is clearly lined up with Scripture.

Well, apparently you have had some experiences that were unpleasant for you and I can’t really speak to those. All i know is it’s hard to determine “God’s pastoral call” on a resume. And I have interviewed pastors for staff positions and have talked to dozens of individuals who feel “called.” At the end of the day, education and experience is pretty much all search committees have to go on. There’s always a few on the committee who really feel “led” toward a certain candidate, but those situations dont always turn out great.

At the end of the day, I have seen pastors hired who felt “called” that ended up being lazy or arrogant or very hurtful to those they sought to lead. So, just saying that I understand pastors who have been hurt by churches and committees and also churches who have been hurt by bad pastors who have felt they were God’s gift to the congregation. It’s tough to bring in a leader that no one knows because that person is given a great amount of trust to teach truth, lead young believers and children, marry and bury the people of that community. It is a huge responsibility and a bad pastor can do immense harm.

 

[Chaps]

I came up with the 90% based on my age at 76 and the number of Churches we have attended, and the problems we have encountered while sitting on or chairing Church Boards. Your summary says nothing about the human "Why's" of a pastor's reasoning for his career choice. Read through the Major and Minor prophets and see what they say about shepherds' missed calling.

Well I appreciate your service in local churches over the years. I still find that kind of declaration based on your personal experience to be a bit slanted. Ive attended 4 seminaries and have known and studied alongside of dozens if not hundreds of pastors. I have also served in the military as a chaplain for quite a while and have rubbed shoulders with hundreds of chaplains who have served as pastors in local churches in their past experience. Even with my experience I wouldn’t dare attribute percentages or try to speak to the motivation of pastors across the country.

I can tell you this…. many seminary students are in college go to classes all week, study in the evenings and often volunteer or supply preach at local churches in the weekend. They often get married in Bible college or seminary because it’s important for them to find a believing wife who wants to partner with them in ministry. Generally, these students graduate with a Bachelors with a student debt of 20-40k or with a MDiv with a debt of about double that. I know pastors from all different denominations, and while some pay a decent salary, most pay somewhere in the neighborhood of what the town public school teachers make…except they dont get summers off and usually have very poor health care coverage or retirement (if the church offers any at all). Also, these young pastors are usually starting their families around this time and so their wives work part-time if at all. So, I just do not at all think your characterization is accurate based on what I have seen and stories I have heard from young ministers. Most of them come out of college on fire for Jesus with a deep desire to reach the lost… and, national studies show that most of these pastors burn out and quit within 3 years.

So the idea that they are money hungry people who dont have a “calling” is not at all my experience. Usually, they do it in spite of the debt they accumulate in seminary and lack of pay at the local church (often living in a parsonage so they dont even build home equity). Also, the idea that you would attribute them to OT false prophets who didn’t have a ”calling” tells me a lot. First, the NT qualifications for elders and teachers talk about “desire” and knowledge and character. I dont see anything about a “calling” for a local pastor. If you want to equate the call of an apostle or prophet with that of a local pastor, then I think you need to reexamine scripture on this subject. Prophesying an audible voice of God or dream from the Holy Spirit is quite different from someone who has the passion and desire to give themselves to the teaching and preaching of the already revealed Word of God.

I dont know what you do for a living but imagine a group of people judging and evaluating your weekly performance and determining God never called you to be a plumber, mechanic or whatever you do for a living based on if they feLt you misspoke about anything you said, if you wore the appropriate clothes when speaking or if your wife played the piano like she’s supposed to…. I think people would be a lot more gracious with pastors if they had 50-100 people watching them do their job and critiquing them on a monthy basis. I’d also be curious as to how many hours you and the elders spent praying and fasting for your pastor and his family throughout the week.

Sorry if this comes off a little rough. I love the Church, her people and her pastors. I know there are bad apples…but from my experience, most of them are really trying hard, have dedicated years of their lives only to have the local Church can be incredibly cruel to her own (Criticizing what they wear, their hair cuts, if they pleased everyone doctrinally with every sermon, if they spent enough hours in every important person in the church‘s living room, if their kids were behaved properly or if the wife was sufficiently active in the kids programming and music, if they have a bottle of wine in their kitchen, or if their vehicles or furniture were cheap and ratty enough to display the appropriate modesty)I’ve known many pastors who have basically tossed their 40+K seminary degree and preferring near minimum wage local jobs because of how they were treated by congregations.

So, I’m sorry you’ve had some unpleasant experiences, but the idea that 90% of seminary or Bible college grads are such unsavory people with a desire to get rich I find entirely unfounded and unrealistic.

 

[ClayPot]

Chaps - Thanks for your feedback. I'm glad to see that you agree with me. Or, at least your rendition confirms what I'm saying. As you say there are many "dropouts" after 3 years. When I was a kid in the 60's I saw the average pastor lasted about 3 years. That tells me that they went into the career with the wrong expectations. Who knows how that happened or who propelled that. I can tell you that it takes considerable effort for sheep or cattle to get to "know your voice".

I'll sum up a shepherd GOAL or END TARGET as it says in Eph 4:12 & 13. New American Standard Bible
for the equipping of the 1saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature 2which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

If that is the process the results will speak for themselves.

NOW, I'll give you the JOB DESCRIPTION: 2 Corinthians 11:21 To our shame I say that we were too weak for that! But in whatever anyone is bold—I speak foolishly—I am bold also. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they ministers of Christ?—I speak as a fool—I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. 24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness— 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation? 30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity. 31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor, under Aretas the king, was guarding the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desiring to arrest me; 33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped from his hands. New American Standard Bible

Most Seminary miss that point. Sheepherders and cattle stockmen are without sabbaticals work long hours, and on-call 24X7

 

[Chaps]

Chaps - Thanks for your feedback. I'm glad to see that you agree with me. Or, at least your rendition confirms what I'm saying. As you say there are many "dropouts" after 3 years. When I was a kid in the 60's I saw the average pastor lasted about 3 years. That tells me that they went into the career with the wrong expectations. Who knows how that happened or who propelled that. I can tell you that it takes considerable effort for sheep or cattle to get to "know your voice".

I'll sum up a shepherd GOAL or END TARGET as it says in Eph 4:12 & 13. New American Standard Bible
for the equipping of the 1saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature 2which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

If that is the process the results will speak for themselves.

NOW, I'll give you the JOB DESCRIPTION: 2 Corinthians 11:21 To our shame I say that we were too weak for that! But in whatever anyone is bold—I speak foolishly—I am bold also. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. 23 Are they ministers of Christ?—I speak as a fool—I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. 24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness— 28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation? 30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity. 31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. 32 In Damascus the governor, under Aretas the king, was guarding the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desiring to arrest me; 33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped from his hands. New American Standard Bible

Most Seminary miss that point. Sheepherders and cattle stockmen are without sabbaticals work long hours, and on-call 24X7

ClayPot,

I do see what you are saying, however, I dont know that those who leave or get burnt out of ministry do so because they weren’t properly ”called” to do it. I think people can have good hearts and desires but get trampled on by carnal believers such that they lose their passion to do ministry (not necessarily their passion for the Lord or his Church). I have seen many pastors with a deep love for the lost who seek to inspire churches to reach the lost in their communities. However, many churches have become more like country clubs and are more interested in being big fish in a small pond than small fish in a big pond. I have seen “Christians” run new attendees out of church because they dont dress properly, sit in ”their” seat or whatever other expectations the group has for membership in their club. Pastors who try to change this mindset are often treated very poorly, if not run out of the church. changing music styles or decor to connect with outsiders is seen as “compromise” or heresy and they are chided by the members. Again, this isn’t all pastors or all churches. But I think sometimes pastors leave ministry because they want to lead people to Christ and not a club.

So, many of these Christians still have the heart Paul dscribes in the Scripture you quoted…but they dont see that heart aligned with a lot of the small churches they seek to lead that are more interested in maintaining the status quo. So, in some cases, their desire to leave may have more to do with the local church dampening their passion to serve the Lord and reach the lost than them leaving as a result of their lack of faith or desire to serve Jesus.

 

[Angela53510]

The church I was attending was very regulated by the denomination we belong to, with regards to picking a new pastor. They could only deal with one candidate at a time. So from receiving the resume till the final congregational vote, only one candidate. It was supposed to make it fair. The candidate was only allowed to deal with one church. So, if he had no job he would have to wait 3 months or more, to find out he wasn't hired? I'm not sure how he is supposed to live.

Anyway, our elders got one candidate who had run a successful church for 10 years. Then he took 2 years off to "reflect" and worked as a carpenter. No one asked why he left, which would have been answered, "because he had a crisis of faith." No one asked him why he came back. It was because he totally changed his theology to open theology, felt he could change a congregation to that (Conservative Baptist Church!)

For that matter, no one asked him what his theology was, including me! I was not on the elder board, but as a church member I could have asked him. But why would I? He was ordained by the denomination, meaning he would have had to have agreed with the denomination's conservative, orthodox theology.

He also preached a very good, traditional sermon for his call. Why would we need to ask him about his view on God? Well, if the committee had asked him the other questions, maybe they could have realized something was up.

So, the congregation approved and he was hired. I knew something was wrong right away with his theology after a few sermons. I was part of the preaching team then, and he was very open to me about his crisis of faith, and becoming an open theologian. I was shocked, but it did explain why his sermons were so uninspiring! No Bible behind them.
I stopped attending church during COVID, as churches were shut down. We did do Zoom church, but after churches opened, I had COVID myself, was sick over a year, then realized I didn't want to go back. The pastor never phoned me once. I thought in a smaller church, that was part of a pastor's job? That's what I was taught. And I had been very involved in the music ministry, as well as preaching occasionally.

I still like the people in the church, attend a Bible study in the evenings. But a month ago, one of the members said to me, "I'm not being fed by the pastor, his sermons give me nothing." I'm sure many feel that way.

He does manage the church and people well. Although it is not as friendly as when we first attended. But, the elders are in control. They failed to vet him properly and ask the right questions. He's on sabbatical right now, loves the town we live in. He's not leaving, unless he gets dumped. I bet most of the elder board wouldn't know open theology is heresy. And I bet most are not getting fed. But won't act on it.

It's tragic when the wrong pastor gets picked. The elder board is not really qualified to assess someone's theology. And so, people leave all the time, it's not growing. They just aren't being fed!

This pastor theoretically met the requirements of the church, he has a Masters in Counselling, but no MDiv. I think he would have been prepared for a crises of faith with a deeper, more biblical and theological degree. He might have had his crisis of faith in seminary, and even left the ministry. Our resolved it! Our last church, in another province, the pastor had a PhD in preaching. Each sermon was deep, yet simple enough my friend from Peru could understand and apply the points.

When people tell me you don't need a seminary degree to be a pastor, I just laugh. It's so much more complex than just knowing the Bible. That's my experience & opinion.

 

[JohnDB]

The church I was attending was very regulated by the denomination we belong to, with regards to picking a new pastor. They could only deal with one candidate at a time. So from receiving the resume till the final congregational vote, only one candidate. It was supposed to make it fair. The candidate was only allowed to deal with one church. So, if he had no job he would have to wait 3 months or more, to find out he wasn't hired? I'm not sure how he is supposed to live.

Anyway, our elders got one candidate who had run a successful church for 10 years. Then he took 2 years off to "reflect" and worked as a carpenter. No one asked why he left, which would have been answered, "because he had a crisis of faith." No one asked him why he came back. It was because he totally changed his theology to open theology, felt he could change a congregation to that (Conservative Baptist Church!)

For that matter, no one asked him what his theology was, including me! I was not on the elder board, but as a church member I could have asked him. But why would I? He was ordained by the denomination, meaning he would have had to have agreed with the denomination's conservative, orthodox theology.

He also preached a very good, traditional sermon for his call. Why would we need to ask him about his view on God? Well, if the committee had asked him the other questions, maybe they could have realized something was up.

So, the congregation approved and he was hired. I knew something was wrong right away with his theology after a few sermons. I was part of the preaching team then, and he was very open to me about his crisis of faith, and becoming an open theologian. I was shocked, but it did explain why his sermons were so uninspiring! No Bible behind them.
I stopped attending church during COVID, as churches were shut down. We did do Zoom church, but after churches opened, I had COVID myself, was sick over a year, then realized I didn't want to go back. The pastor never phoned me once. I thought in a smaller church, that was part of a pastor's job? That's what I was taught. And I had been very involved in the music ministry, as well as preaching occasionally.

I still like the people in the church, attend a Bible study in the evenings. But a month ago, one of the members said to me, "I'm not being fed by the pastor, his sermons give me nothing." I'm sure many feel that way.

He does manage the church and people well. Although it is not as friendly as when we first attended. But, the elders are in control. They failed to vet him properly and ask the right questions. He's on sabbatical right now, loves the town we live in. He's not leaving, unless he gets dumped. I bet most of the elder board wouldn't know open theology is heresy. And I bet most are not getting fed. But won't act on it.

It's tragic when the wrong pastor gets picked. The elder board is not really qualified to assess someone's theology. And so, people leave all the time, it's not growing. They just aren't being fed!

This pastor theoretically met the requirements of the church, he has a Masters in Counselling, but no MDiv. I think he would have been prepared for a crises of faith with a deeper, more biblical and theological degree. He might have had his crisis of faith in seminary, and even left the ministry. Our resolved it! Our last church, in another province, the pastor had a PhD in preaching. Each sermon was deep, yet simple enough my friend from Peru could understand and apply the points.

When people tell me you don't need a seminary degree to be a pastor, I just laugh. It's so much more complex than just knowing the Bible. That's my experience & opinion.

Yeah,
Seen something similar to this often.

Pastors don't always share the same theologies as the church denominations they preach at. I know of some that preach Calvinistic sermons because the congregation wants to hear that....but don't actually believe that system. And vice versa. They basically preach what the church wants to hear.

Then some...they try to avoid controversial subjects like eschatology or prophesy....so they always preach pan-millenialism. (Everything pans out if you are always faithful)

But most preachers are not teaching preachers....they are morality preachers.

Huge difference between the two.

And teaching preachers are hard to come by.

But you hit upon a key a moment ago. The elders/deacons or the pastoral search committee. They have a very serious job to uphold and can be completely ill equipped to handle the task at hand. (Or even seen some with one person having a secret agenda)
I've seen more than one church destroyed by a lousy hire.

The biggest thing is that they have to love the most irritating, self-righteous, and childish group of people around. (Church people) And those sorts are hard to come by.