Paul exposes false application of the law

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You preach this I know, like you preach the Pharisees were trying to obey God and not their own doctrines and traditions as Jesus said over and over.

They were trying to obey the law plus (all their man made doctrines) I have proven that to you, and grandpa proved that to you by showing Paul’s words. And other passages which prove it.

Church doctrine is wrong on this point EG, just like you are wrong to preach the Pharisees were trying to please God by obeying Him.

Your wrong on this, They did obey the law and their added words. In fact they had to be better than what the law required. Because they added rules the law did not even require. Which was th purpose of the added rules to begin with (to make it harder after they returned from babylon)

Jesus, God, Paul and Peter separated God's Righteous "Law of Faith"(Commandments Abraham kept) from the carnal "Law of works" called "Levitical Priesthood" (Added to the Law of faith Abraham kept.) You and the Jews refuse to separate them.

Jesus and Paul didn't, and neither do I.

That is why Jesus and Paul had a different understanding of God's Word than the Mainstream preachers of their time. That is why we have completely different understandings of these same scriptures.

Jesus did not seperate them, Nor did paul. Nor did anyone else

You do. And for that,. You are in error. And prove you do not even understand the law. Let alone the reason behind the levitical priesthood.
 
I don't argue with you because you preach the truth about God, I argue with you because you preach falsehood about God. And when you are exposed, you just move on to the next falsehood. You can say all you want, but nothing you say will alter the Biblical truth that it isn't God's Commandments that are the scourge of the world, it is preaching doctrines and traditions of men that cause people to transgress the Commandments of God.

No matter what you say, your words can not erase the Biblical fact that the Pharisees were NOT trying to obey God, they were trying to get to heaven by creating their own laws, doctrines and traditions. To deny this is to deny Christ.

If that truth condemns your preaching, then maybe you should look in the mirror instead of harping on those who would help you.

Matthew 15- the Pharisees were questioning Jesus about the Disciples eating with unwashed hands and about honoring mothers and fathers , you know one of the 10 commands that you say they were not trying to obey.

and then , in v.7, 8 Jesus says to the Pharisees " you hypocrites! well did Isiah prophesy of you saying- these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me, in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men".

so, proved wrong again about the Pharisees not trying to obey the law.

I guess this is why you try ( and fail ) to convince me that chronological order and context of Scripture is false teaching.

you mention the Pharisees and the law, I just quoted Jesus about it. not moving on.
 
=Grandpa;3353949]Everyone who works at the law in their own understanding and strength does the EXACT same thing.

Don't they?

Who ever said I "work" at God's Righteous Laws from my own understanding? I do just the opposite, I ignore my understanding and submit my mind to God/Jesus. They are the ones telling me to follow the instructions of God and stay away from the doctrines and traditions of man.


Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


What is causing me to be heavy laden? God's Commandments? Or death, deception, and doctrines and traditions of man?

Jesus said the truth will make me free. Free from what? Free from the "good" "holy" and "Just" laws of God Jesus walked in? Or the religious doctrines and traditions of men that plagued the Jews and cost them their salvation.

This is the very beginning of obedience, understanding, wisdom, Christianity.

I know from study that the Pharisees were not trying to please God by obeying God. Yet you preach, and continue to preach this falsehood even when I have shown in both the new and the old testaments where this preaching is false.

How is preaching falsehoods about God's Word the beginning of obedience, understanding?


If you haven't been given rest, if you don't know what it is, then you are a clanging gong, trying to teach law but not knowing what it really says and what its for.

I can not be bothered with the judgment of men, especially those who teach things about God that are not true.
 
=gb9;3353998]
Matthew 15- the Pharisees were questioning Jesus about the Disciples eating with unwashed hands and about honoring mothers and fathers , you know one of the 10 commands that you say they were not trying to obey.

What Commandment of God said it is a sin to eat without washing our hands?
 
=gb9;3353998]

What Commandment of God said it is a sin to eat without washing our hands?

Matthew 15 - in the first couple of verses, the Pharisees were asking about unwashed hands. then , starting in verse 3-Jesus questions them as to why the break the command to honor mother and father, and cites his reasoning as to how they handle religious gifts. that discourse leads into what I posted above.

now, I am done doing commentary for you. open your Bible and read it, not just the same verses over and over. I am not your pet, doing what you want. I have proven you wrong so many times I've lost count. so, admit you are wrong or keep lying. the choice is yours. you are playing games with Scripture. I will participate no more.
 
=eternally-gratefull;3353988]
They were trying to obey the law plus (all their man made doctrines) I have proven that to you, and grandpa proved that to you by showing Paul’s words. And other passages which prove it.

I missed your scriptural support for this preaching. Can you please show me again? Jesus said they:

Matt. 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Do you have scriptures that makes these Words of Christ regarding the mainstream preachers of His time false?



Your wrong on this, They did obey the law and their added words. In fact they had to be better than what the law required. Because they added rules the law did not even require. Which was th purpose of the added rules to begin with (to make it harder after they returned from Babylon)

I know you preach this, but Paul said of them:

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

How is this obeying God's Laws? How is this any different than the image of the long haired man's hair shampoo model todays mainstream preachers have created?

Jesus did not seperate them, Nor did paul. Nor did anyone else


I know you must believe there is no separation, your entire doctrine depends on there being no separation. I made the case from scriptures. I don't agree that God made " Love the Lord your God" that Abraham followed and "sprinkle the blood of the goat on the alter" that was "ADDED" to this law "till the Seed should come" equal and united. I believe the Bible makes a clear distinction even if Mainstream Christianity does not.

You do. And for that,. You are in error. And prove you do not even understand the law. Let alone the reason behind the levitical priesthood.

Yes, it is true we have completely different understanding of scripture. As Jesus and Paul and the Mainstream preachers of His time did.

We will just agree to disagree. You said you could live with that.
 
Matthew 15 - in the first couple of verses, the Pharisees were asking about unwashed hands. then , starting in verse 3-Jesus questions them as to why the break the command to honor mother and father, and cites his reasoning as to how they handle religious gifts. that discourse leads into what I posted above.

now, I am done doing commentary for you. open your Bible and read it, not just the same verses over and over. I am not your pet, doing what you want. I have proven you wrong so many times I've lost count. so, admit you are wrong or keep lying. the choice is yours. you are playing games with Scripture. I will participate no more.

I asked a simple relevant question about your preaching.

"What Commandment of God said it is a sin to eat without washing our hands?"

I will miss your spirit filled commentary.
 
I missed your scriptural support for this preaching. Can you please show me again? Jesus said they:

Matt. 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Do you have scriptures that makes these Words of Christ regarding the mainstream preachers of His time false?

I really fell like i am talking to a wall.

The question is, Did the pharisees THINK they were right with God because they were following the law.

Grandpa and I both have showed you passages which would say yes. You keep posting passage which show Jesus told them the reality of what they did (not what they thought they were doing) and saying I am in error because I do not post proof.

Why don;t you post proof they did not BELIEVE they were following the law to make themselves worthy, And not the reality which faces every man and woman, no matter who they are (all have sinned and fall short)

I know All, even pharisees, sinned, That is not the point of contention.




I know you preach this, but Paul said of them:

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

How is this obeying God's Laws? How is this any different than the image of the long haired man's hair shampoo model todays mainstream preachers have created?

Again, your missing th point, No one said they DID follow the law. The question is WHAT THEY THOUGHT THEY DID.



I know you must believe there is no separation, your entire doctrine depends on there being no separation. I made the case from scriptures. I don't agree that God made " Love the Lord your God" that Abraham followed and "sprinkle the blood of the goat on the alter" that was "ADDED" to this law "till the Seed should come" equal and united. I believe the Bible makes a clear distinction even if Mainstream Christianity does not.



Yes, it is true we have completely different understanding of scripture. As Jesus and Paul and the Mainstream preachers of His time did.

We will just agree to disagree. You said you could live with that.

I believe it because it is true. Your doctrine demands there be a separation. So please. Do not use a reasoning that can be put right back at you,. Those line of reasonings fail and make you look bad.

The law (you know the one who said you were in sin, and the law which was to shut every mouth? That was the schoolmaster.

Moses said that they must confirm and obey every word. Is that not still active today? Is not breaking one command enough to cause you to break the covenant, and make you guilty, a cause which demands blood in order to be redeemed?

Thats what Paul said.

yes we do have different

You want to place people under law. You deny the law still today curses you apart from grace, and you think we are made righteous by the law. Non of which are true.
 
I really fell like i am talking to a wall.

The question is, Did the pharisees THINK they were right with God because they were following the law.

Grandpa and I both have showed you passages which would say yes. You keep posting passage which show Jesus told them the reality of what they did (not what they thought they were doing) and saying I am in error because I do not post proof.

Why don;t you post proof they did not BELIEVE they were following the law to make themselves worthy, And not the reality which faces every man and woman, no matter who they are (all have sinned and fall short)

I know All, even pharisees, sinned, That is not the point of contention.






Again, your missing th point, No one said they DID follow the law. The question is WHAT THEY THOUGHT THEY DID.





I believe it because it is true. Your doctrine demands there be a separation. So please. Do not use a reasoning that can be put right back at you,. Those line of reasonings fail and make you look bad.

The law (you know the one who said you were in sin, and the law which was to shut every mouth? That was the schoolmaster.

Moses said that they must confirm and obey every word. Is that not still active today? Is not breaking one command enough to cause you to break the covenant, and make you guilty, a cause which demands blood in order to be redeemed?

Thats what Paul said.

yes we do have different

You want to place people under law. You deny the law still today curses you apart from grace, and you think we are made righteous by the law. Non of which are true.


I grow weary of you ignoring my questions and scriptures.

This could go on and on to no avail. I am not going to throw all the scriptures away necessary to support your preaching, and you are not going to acknowledge the scriptures I post in my attempt to expose what Jesus warned so many times about.

You will take the last word anyway, so I'll just give it to you.

Thanks for the exercise.
 
Who ever said I "work" at God's Righteous Laws from my own understanding? I do just the opposite, I ignore my understanding and submit my mind to God/Jesus. They are the ones telling me to follow the instructions of God and stay away from the doctrines and traditions of man.




What is causing me to be heavy laden? God's Commandments? Or death, deception, and doctrines and traditions of man?

Jesus said the truth will make me free. Free from what? Free from the "good" "holy" and "Just" laws of God Jesus walked in? Or the religious doctrines and traditions of men that plagued the Jews and cost them their salvation.



I know from study that the Pharisees were not trying to please God by obeying God. Yet you preach, and continue to preach this falsehood even when I have shown in both the new and the old testaments where this preaching is false.

How is preaching falsehoods about God's Word the beginning of obedience, understanding?




I can not be bothered with the judgment of men, especially those who teach things about God that are not true.
Do you obey the law because you think it is pleasing to God???
 
I grow weary of you ignoring my questions and scriptures.

This could go on and on to no avail. I am not going to throw all the scriptures away necessary to support your preaching, and you are not going to acknowledge the scriptures I post in my attempt to expose what Jesus warned so many times about.

You will take the last word anyway, so I'll just give it to you.

Thanks for the exercise.
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Do you obey the law because you think it is pleasing to God???

Grandpa, I don't know about you but it is pleasing to me when my son listen to what I teach him. There is no prouder moment when a dad can look at his child and say "you listened to my teaching, I am so proud of you my boy, thank you for the respect you showed me".

Pro_28:7 Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.
Pro_28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
 
Grandpa, I don't know about you but it is pleasing to me when my son listen to what I teach him. There is no prouder moment when a dad can look at his child and say "you listened to my teaching, I am so proud of you my boy, thank you for the respect you showed me".

Pro_28:7 Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.
Pro_28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Do you think your son obeys because he wants to please you? Yes, of course...

People have interpreted the law to mean its something that they are keeping and doing well. They have their own rules and their loopholes.

But they all do it because they think it is pleasing to God, or will turn away His Wrath, which is pretty much the same thing.

So there is no reason to think that someone who lives by the law IS NOT trying to obey God.
 
In Paul’s letter to timothy he exposes those who are taking the law out of context, and trying to add it to The Christian way of life.


1 Tim 1: 3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.



Notice, Paul wants timothy to remain in Ephesus to expose and teach men who are teaching strange doctrines, instead of furthering the Administration of God, focusing instead on Faith and love. Instead o focusing on myth on myths and genealogies, which lead to speculations, instead of truth. And who were these men?


6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, 7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.


These are men who are attempting to teach the law, however, they are only making assertions, which are not true, for they do not understand the law, even though they make confident assertions what they teach is true.

Then paul tells Timothy (and us) what the law is really about.


8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,


It is only Good if it is used according to the rules and guidelines for which it was originally intended. In other words. Taking the law out of context. Using it outside of its original intended purpose, Makes the law not a good thing, But a Bad thing. According to paul, it causes division and destroys godly edification. And does not lead to truth. Which is never a good thing.


9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate,


first. Paul goes on to who was the law written for?


1. The righteous, Who are the righteous, according to Paul?


Phil 3: 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

1. It is of faith only, Not by following some law, so just because someone may be obeying the law and doing what the law says, does not mean they are righteous.


2. It is something given, not something done, or earned


3. It is made for sinners,


2 Cor 5: 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


It is something given, based on what Christ did on the cross.


Rom 3: 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,


1. again, not of the law


2. it is given to all who believe


3. no one is righteous by being obedient all have sinned and fall short.


4. it is freely paid for by the redeeming act of Christ.


Conclusion, the law is not for true Christians, who were given righteousness by being redeemed, it is given only for sinners



Which part of the law? As Paul says speaking women are a shame in church, and cannot teach, and to have long hair or covered head. Aren't these laws or at least shamings. You probably don't go to hell for not wearing a hat, but won't your rewards be less etc?

Laws are solid, heaven or hell, but the rest,??
 
Which part of the law? As Paul says speaking women are a shame in church, and cannot teach, and to have long hair or covered head. Aren't these laws or at least shamings. You probably don't go to hell for not wearing a hat, but won't your rewards be less etc?

Laws are solid, heaven or hell, but the rest,??


All of the law. He did not say the law was a bad thing, he said taking it out of context due to misunderstanding it was a bad thing.

Thank you for your comment.
 
Only YHWH saves and righteous works are not the enemy, satan is.
Now think about this for a moment;

Romans 9:30-32
[FONT=&quot]30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;[/FONT]
 
Do you obey the law because you think it is pleasing to God???
=============================================

you asked me this in 'private' and my answer is YES; my Husband and i would do anything!,
that we know/believe would be pleasing to our Holy Saviour, as a gesture of our Love and Adoration,
Thankfulness for His Holy Sacrifice...