Peace and Justice

[LarryE]

You discount several instances in Scripture where violence occurred.

You might consider what Jesus did to the money changers who defiled the Temple.

Matthew, Chapter 10:

33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

40He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

41He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

42And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

You are misunderstanding versus 34,35 and 36. Jesus is not literally calling for violence. He’s explaining that followers of Jesus will run into opposition even from family members. in regards to the sword, please recall Jesus statement to Peter in the garden of olives , when he told Peter to put up the sword.

 

[LarryE]

You are misunderstanding versus 34,35 and 36. Jesus is not literally calling for violence. He’s explaining that followers of Jesus will run into opposition even from family members. in regards to the sword, please recall Jesus statement to Peter in the garden of olives , when he told Peter to put up the sword.

As far as the money changers are concerned, Jesus did not attack them. He went after the animals and turned over the tables. He did not commit violence against the person.

 

[GWH]

Scripture makes it clear that the kingdom of God is here now, but not in its fullness. When Jesus returns it will be here innit’s completeness.

Yes, and Phip. 3:12 is also good, but given your goal, I trust that if you are stationed at Ft. Hood you realize that
peacemaking is the goal of our army and sometimes requires the use of violence to defend against the violent,
which may be the reason Jesus never condemned soldiering.

 

[LarryE]

Of course Jesus desires that we be "of one mind" with other believers, and to be merciful to those in need of mercy, and to forgive those who trespass against us, but that does not mean He expects us to sit quietly when we or our family are "set upon."

1 Timothy, Chapter 5:

8But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

I believe that verse in Timothy is talking about providing the material needs for one’s family. As far as one letting his family to be set upon as difficult as it is, Jesus is clear. When he says love your enemies, he doesn’t exclude those who might attack one’s family. We should do everything we can to defend our family in nonviolent ways. There are whole books written about how to defend ourselves without violence. Jean Sharp a member of VeteransForPeace, an group. I belong to also. has published a long list of actions to take to nonviolently defend oneself.
I chose to be a Mennonite because they take Jesus nonviolence seriously. At the time of the reformation, there was a group who were called in the Anabaptist, the progenitors of the Mennonite church and the brethren church and the Amish church. This group was pursued by the Lutherans the Catholics and the reformed church, because the Anabaptist believed in adult baptism, not infant baptism. The Anabaptist did not defend themselves when they were attacked by those three other groups. They took Jesus call to non violence seriously, and over 400 years many of them were martyred. The Anabaptist published a book “Martyrs Mirror” which is still available today. I have a copy.
I want to thank you brother for replying to my posts. It’s a good thing to discuss scripture with other Christians.

 

[GWH]

I believe that verse in Timothy is talking about providing the material needs for one’s family. As far as one letting his family to be set upon as difficult as it is, Jesus is clear. When he says love your enemies, he doesn’t exclude those who might attack one’s family. We should do everything we can to defend our family in nonviolent ways. There are whole books written about how to defend ourselves without violence. Jean Sharp a member of VeteransForPeace, an group. I belong to also. has published a long list of actions to take to nonviolently defend oneself.
I chose to be a Mennonite because they take Jesus nonviolence seriously. At the time of the reformation, there was a group who were called in the Anabaptist, the progenitors of the Mennonite church and the brethren church and the Amish church. This group was pursued by the Lutherans the Catholics and the reformed church, because the Anabaptist believed in adult baptism, not infant baptism. The Anabaptist did not defend themselves when they were attacked by those three other groups. They took Jesus call to non violence seriously, and over 400 years many of them were martyred. The Anabaptist published a book “Martyrs Mirror” which is still available today. I have a copy.
I want to thank you brother for replying to my posts. It’s a good thing to discuss scripture with other Christians.

I was raised as a Baptist, although I now prefer to identify as a Christian and truthseeker.
Do Mennonites take God's hell seriously? Do they affirm Paul's teaching in Romans 13:1-5?
What about the rather violent return of Jesus described in Revelation?
Do they realize that providing non-violent support for the military or police abets violence?
Are they grateful for God's blessings provided in the USA by means of violence?

 

[Suze]

Jesus is very clear that he is against violence. Matt 5:9 “ blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.”
Luke 6:37-32 “ but I tell you who hear me love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse, you pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn
to him the other also. if someone takes your cloak , do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you. if anyone takes one belongs to you do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. “See also Matt 5:43-48. Jesus states his desire for nonviolence other places in the New Testament as well. Paul concurs with Jesus in Rom. 12:17-21. “Do not repay anyone evil for evil. … if it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live in peace with everyone. Do not take revenge my friends, but leave room for God‘s wrath for it is written:” it is mine to avenge; I will repay” says the Lord. On the contrary: “ if your enemy is hungry, feed him:
If he is thirsty, give them something to drink.
On doing this, you will see burning coals on his head”
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
See also: Ps 46:9-10, 147:10-11, 33:16-18, 34:14. Is 2:4, 11:6-9. 2 Cor: 10:3-4, Eph. 6:10-17 and 1 Pet. 2:20-23. This list is not exhaustive. There’s many more verses, indicating God wants us to be peacemakers.

Yes , the group I belong to is totally pacifist , we will never initiate physical violence towards another human , we r also not supposed to retaliate if someone uses violence against us , and we r not supposed to defend anyone else by using violence . I have never been tested in these ways since I have been baptized and I hope that I am not but if I am , I know what is required of me . As Christians who have an advocate in heaven , we know that if we do sin , in any way , we can pray and ask for forgiveness . It doesn't seem a coincidence to me that in the Lord's prayer that these phrases follow on from each other : forgive us our trespasses as WE FORGIVE THOSE THAT TRESPASS AGAINST US AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION BUT DELIVERY US from evil . Vengeance is mine saith the Lord , I shall repay . We must trust in God to deliver us from evil and He will repay sinners for their actions . If we die we die , if we believe that we as Christians don't die then why r we so scared of death ? We all live and die in God's good time . He says : I kill and I make alive . Notice the order that He says that in .

 

[GWH]

Yes , the group I belong to is totally pacifist , we will never initiate physical violence towards another human , we r also not supposed to retaliate if someone uses violence against us , and we r not supposed to defend anyone else by using violence . I have never been tested in these ways since I have been baptized and I hope that I am not but if I am , I know what is required of me . As Christians who have an advocate in heaven , we know that if we do sin , in any way , we can pray and ask for forgiveness . It doesn't seem a coincidence to me that in the Lord's prayer that these phrases follow on from each other : forgive us our trespasses as WE FORGIVE THOSE THAT TRESPASS AGAINST US AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION BUT DELIVERY US from evil . Vengeance is mine saith the Lord , I shall repay . We must trust in God to deliver us from evil and He will repay sinners for their actions . If we die we die , if we believe that we as Christians don't die then why r we so scared of death ? We all live and die in God's good time . He says : I kill and I make alive . Notice the order that He says that in .

Okay, so please answer these questions:

Do Mennonites take God's hell seriously? Do they affirm Paul's teaching in Romans 13:1-5?
What about the rather violent return of Jesus described in Revelation?
Do they realize that providing non-violent support for the military or police abets violence?
Are they grateful for God's blessings provided in the USA by means of violence?

Although I am aware that I would feel horrible if I had to kill someone in self-defense,
I realize that such killing is justifiable homicide per Rom. 13:1-5,
and I am grateful to those who enforce laws against murder,
realizing it is wrong to blame the little red hen for doing the "dirty" work.

 

[LarryE]

Yes, and Phip. 3:12 is also good, but given your goal, I trust that if you are stationed at Ft. Hood you realize that
peacemaking is the goal of our army and sometimes requires the use of violence to defend against the violent,
which may be the reason Jesus never condemned soldiering.

We can not ignore the many verses telling Christians to be peacemakers. Christians do not depend upon the army to defend them. We depend on God. Paul says this in second Corinthians 10, three and four: “for though we live in the world, we do not wage war is the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.”
I myself am a veteran who volunteered to go to Vietnam. An an excellent book about Vietnam is entitled: Kill Everything That Moves”. That is an excellent description of what happened in Vietnam. We bombed civilians in north Vietnam in South Vietnam. We used napalm to destroy entire villages and literally burn people alive. As an air observer flying over South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia I saw the destruction of many many civilian villages from the air.
It’s important to note for the first 400 years of Christianity, almost no Christians participated in war.
Since about 400 A.D. countries have justified going to war based on what is called “The Just War Theory.” The most important tenants of this belief are as follows:
The war must be winnable.
There must be a “just cause”to start a war.
The war was
must be fought with proportionality.
War must be resorted to only as a last resort.
The country must have the right attitude. The reason for fighting must be the restoration of justice, not anger or retaliation.
War must be declared by legitimate authority.
Countries must observe, noncombatant immunity. It is immoral to directly target civilians or kill prisoners of war.
The problem with this theory is, it has never stopped any war. There are many challenges to those who believe in just war.
How can one kill the person at the same time fulfill the mandate to invite the person to accept Christ? How can one obey Christ command to love ones enemies while one is killing them? It cannot be the case. When both sides in a battle are fighting they can not both have a just cause.
There are many more criticisms of the just war theory, but I’ll stop here.
Thank you brother for sharing your thoughts with me. I have enjoyed chatting with you.

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

Let’s discuss the peace and justice required by the kingdom of God

What do you think about that?

 

[Suze]

Okay, so please answer these questions:

Do Mennonites take God's hell seriously? Do they affirm Paul's teaching in Romans 13:1-5?
What about the rather violent return of Jesus described in Revelation?
Do they realize that providing non-violent support for the military or police abets violence?
Are they grateful for God's blessings provided in the USA by means of violence?

Although I am aware that I would feel horrible if I had to kill someone in self-defense,
I realize that such killing is justifiable homicide per Rom. 13:1-5,
and I am grateful to those who enforce laws against murder,
realizing it is wrong to blame the little red hen for doing the "dirty" work.

I'm sorry I'm not a Mennonite so I can't answer your questions

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

I'm sorry I'm not a Mennonite so I can't answer your questions

This may assist @GWH.

https://forum.mennonet.com/

 

[GWH]

We can not ignore the many verses telling Christians to be peacemakers. Christians do not depend upon the army to defend them. We depend on God. Paul says this in second Corinthians 10, three and four: “for though we live in the world, we do not wage war is the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.”
I myself am a veteran who volunteered to go to Vietnam. An an excellent book about Vietnam is entitled: Kill Everything That Moves”. That is an excellent description of what happened in Vietnam. We bombed civilians in north Vietnam in South Vietnam. We used napalm to destroy entire villages and literally burn people alive. As an air observer flying over South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia I saw the destruction of many many civilian villages from the air.
It’s important to note for the first 400 years of Christianity, almost no Christians participated in war.
Since about 400 A.D. countries have justified going to war based on what is called “The Just War Theory.” The most important tenants of this belief are as follows:
The war must be winnable.
There must be a “just cause”to start a war.
The war was
must be fought with proportionality.
War must be resorted to only as a last resort.
The country must have the right attitude. The reason for fighting must be the restoration of justice, not anger or retaliation.
War must be declared by legitimate authority.
Countries must observe, noncombatant immunity. It is immoral to directly target civilians or kill prisoners of war.
The problem with this theory is, it has never stopped any war. There are many challenges to those who believe in just war.
How can one kill the person at the same time fulfill the mandate to invite the person to accept Christ? How can one obey Christ command to love ones enemies while one is killing them? It cannot be the case. When both sides in a battle are fighting they can not both have a just cause.
There are many more criticisms of the just war theory, but I’ll stop here.
Thank you brother for sharing your thoughts with me. I have enjoyed chatting with you.

I appreciate your reply. When I got the draft number of 31, I joined the Navy Reserve to avoid going to Vietnam,
because I recognized that it was NOT a just war. (See my post about Vietnam on the thread about Applying GW to Politics.)

We depend on God to win both spiritual war and wars of defense against murderous atheists (Rom. 13:1-5).
We cannot ignore that Jesus never condemned soldiering but only indicated that the motive must be peacemaking.
I am very grateful that such was the mission of my units in Bosnia and Iraq and that no one in my units were killed
or seriously injured, but I always told my folks that I was as "guilty" of any killing we might do as anyone,
because my mission as chaplain was to improve their morale so they be better fighters.

 

[GWH]

I'm sorry I'm not a Mennonite so I can't answer your questions

Well, I took your reference to also belonging to a pacifist group as being a fellow Mennonite with LarryE,
but you may identify your group and answer them, and I intend to ask him again to do so as a follow-up to his initial reply.

 

[GWH]

This may assist @GWH.

https://forum.mennonet.com/

Thanks, M_C. That site might be helpful, although at the moment I would like for pacifists to answer my questions.
What is your belief regarding this issue?

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

Thanks, M_C. That site might be helpful, although at the moment I would like for pacifists to answer my questions.
What is your belief regarding this issue?

I'm not a pacifist.

 

[GWH]

I'm not a pacifist.

So, perhaps your answers would be similar to mine?

1. Do pacifists take God's hell seriously? No.

2. Do they affirm Paul's teaching in Romans 13:1-5? No.

3. Do they acknowledge the rather violent return of Jesus described in Revelation? No.

4. Do they realize that providing non-violent support for the military or police abets violence? No.

5. Are they grateful for God's blessings provided in the USA by means of violence? No.

6. Are they grateful to those who enforce laws against murder? No.

7. Do they blame the little red hen for doing the "dirty" work? Yes.

Once upon a time, Little Red Hen lived on a farm with a dog, a pig and a cow. Little Red Hen worked hard every day to grow plants in her garden. The dog, the pig, and the cow did nothing but sleep all day in the warm sun and watch Little Red Hen work in her garden. One day, Little Red Hen found a grain of wheat. “Who will help me plant this wheat so that we can eat fresh bread?” she said. “Not I,” said the dog. “Not I,” said the pig. “Not I,” said the cow. (Etc.)

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

So, perhaps your answers would be similar to mine?

1. Do pacifists take God's hell seriously? No.

2. Do they affirm Paul's teaching in Romans 13:1-5? No.

3. Do they acknowledge the rather violent return of Jesus described in Revelation? No.

4. Do they realize that providing non-violent support for the military or police abets violence? No.

5. Are they grateful for God's blessings provided in the USA by means of violence? No.

6. Are they grateful to those who enforce laws against murder? No.

7. Do they blame the little red hen for doing the "dirty" work? Yes.

Once upon a time, Little Red Hen lived on a farm with a dog, a pig and a cow. Little Red Hen worked hard every day to grow plants in her garden. The dog, the pig, and the cow did nothing but sleep all day in the warm sun and watch Little Red Hen work in her garden. One day, Little Red Hen found a grain of wheat. “Who will help me plant this wheat so that we can eat fresh bread?” she said. “Not I,” said the dog. “Not I,” said the pig. “Not I,” said the cow. (Etc.)

Why would I care what pacifists think?

 

[GWH]

Why would I care what pacifists think?

We should care what GW says and share it with everyone including pacifists as we have opportunity.
I care what you think, but you did not share whether you agree with my answers.

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

As far as the money changers are concerned, Jesus did not attack them. He went after the animals and turned over the tables. He did not commit violence against the person.

He did attack them. Because money changers were standing or sitting behind the tables he overturned in his righteous anger.
You are making Jesus into something that does not comport with the whole of Scripture. Or even the verses about the money changers.

Jesus is not a pacifist.

 

[Mouse_Cheeks]

We should care what GW says and share it with everyone including pacifists as we have opportunity.
I care what you think, but you did not share whether you agree with my answers.

Your answers are your own.

The little red hen story isn't about pacifism. It is about sloth.