Penal Substitution Atonement is unjust

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ATG

Well-known member
Feb 14, 2022
1,792
247
63
Houston Tx
An innocent person can die instead of the guilty, but no innocent person can be made guilty instead of the evil doer. Many can do so by injustice, but never by God the righteous Judge of all the earth.

Only false accusers and unjust men made Jesus guilty of sin, not God nor the Father.

'PSA' is a doctrinal disease to continue sinning, not the attonement of Jesus Christ to be saved from sinning.

Mat 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Any doctrine, tradition, gospel that preaches a salvation and justification with continued sinning against God, cannot possibly be the salvation of God from continued sinning against Him and Jesus Christ.
  • Penal substitution teaches that Jesus voluntarily suffered the penalty due for sinning, fulfilling divine justice and enabling forgiveness.
Jesus paid the price of the innocent submitting Himself into the hands of the guilty: False accusation, condemnation, and unlawful execution.

Act 2:22
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Isaiah{50:5}
The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.


Jesus did not pay any price for sinning: Degredation, condemnation, and death of the soul.

Ezek 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Only Jesus' natural body died on a cross, not the righteous soul of God the Son.

Only by Jesus' resurrection from the dead, is He now enables to forgive sins of them that repent.

Rom{11:32}
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Rom 4:25
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jesus' death in the grave did not enable Him to forgive any person on earth, much less them that evily slew Him.

  • “Penal” refers to punishment for offenses; “substitution” means taking another’s place. Jesus takes the punishment sinners deserve.
Jesus was not punished by God, for obeying God in submitting to evil doers. Jesus did not take the place of any of the wicked that slew Him.

Mat 27:17
Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?...But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

God did not have Jesus crucified into of the murderer Barrabas, but only His accursers did.

By God's will, Jesus only took the place of bulls and goats.

Isa 53:7
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
  • It asserts that divine forgiveness requires satisfaction of divine justice, and Christ’s death provides that satisfaction.
Divine forgiveness rquires godly sorrow of confession and repentance:

2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:


1Jo 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

No man at the cross is forgiven by Jesus Christ, for no man believed He was Christ the Son, nor repented of unlawfully slaying Him.

Divine justice is for the righteous to be justified, and the guilty to be punished. Not for the righteous to be punished with the guilty, especially not punished instead of the guilty.

Deu 19:9
If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the LORD thy God, and to walk ever in his ways;…That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Lev 19:15
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

2Ch 19:7
Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.


Divine condemnation and punishment is only for one's own evil doing, not for another's:

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Jesus Christ the righteous, who did no sin, was not penalized by God for sin. God did not penalize Jesus for obeying Him in submission to unjust men.

Jesus' only price and penalty for obeying God, was undeserved shame and humiliation by wicked hands contrary to law of God.

Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne


No man's price for sin against God can be paid by another, especially not the innocent righteous, that has not sinned against God.

Jesus submitted Himself into the hands of sinners. He did not substitute Himself to be made a sinner instead.

No man sinning against Christ is justified by the unlawful and wicked death of Jesus on a cross. All that sin against Him are guilty and condemned of His death at the hands of all sinners.

Psa 94:21
They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood.

Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom{11:32}
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,


Jesus was not made guilty of any sin on the cross, instead of guilty sinners. But rather, all sinners are made guilty of His death, instead of just them that slew Him.

Mat 27:25
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
 
No Scripture anywhere says by word or doctrine, that any of God's offered sacrifices are 'substitutes' for the sins and transgressions of others, nor does any sacrifice pay the price for sinning and transgressing God's law.

All sinning and transgression is an act against the Spirit and law of God. Once the evil is committed, there can be no 'substitution' made for it.

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Once the act of sin is committed against the Lord, the evil doer is dead to God. No good thing can be done, nor sacrifice offered, to substitute for any evil done: Paying penance is to men only, not of God.

A 'sin' offering, as opposed to a 'peace' offering, is an offering for sin, not an offering that is sin, nor made sin by God. God does not accept sinful offerings and sacrifices for sins committed against Him.

Isa 1:13
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

Isa 66:3
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.


The price for sin by law of Moses was the death of an animal, not to pay the price of sin itself: The sinner sacrificing the animal pays the price for his sin by law. The transgressor has made the sacrifice for his own sinning.

Lev 1:4
And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him. And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests,

By putting his hand upon his sacrifice, the transgressor publically acknowledges and owns the sin he has done: No Scripture says that God as then 'transferred' the sin to the animal. Nor made the animal guilty of the transgression. Not itself paid the price for sin, instead of the transgressor offering the sacrifice as payment by law.

Likewise, the Lamb of God could not by law, 'substitute' Himself for the sinner, nor pay the price of any man's sin, nor be made guilty of sin of others, nor of Himself who did no sin at all. Esxepcailly not by wicked hands being laid upon His own body unto death, contrary to the law of God.

PSA is a false tradition from the Old Covenant of God, that is then made worse, in order to justify wicked hands, that falsely accused, condemned, and unlawfully shed Jesus Christ's innocent blood on a cross:

Mar 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

1Co 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:
Sinners and transgressors laying their hands on Jesus' head, back, hands, and feet, did not 'transfer' our sins to Him, nor make Him a guilty substitute for our own sinning against Him.

PSA is a lying tradition of false symbolism alone: An unscriptural 'mysterious' transferrance of the sin, guilt, and death price of the guilty to the innocent, as though by God contrary to His own justice, law, and Spirit of holiness and truth.

It's a false accusation against God, by devilish symbolism, that would make the righteous and true Father, to be the God of sinful men that imputes sin and guilt to His own Son, and has Him beaten and crucified unto death, like as an evil transgressor by law.

Isa 53:3
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Luk 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
 
And so, what is the whole purpose of PSA? To make the innocent be guilty and worthy of death, so that the guilty can be uncondemned and worthy of life.

John 5:18
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself equal with God.


Mar 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
The guilty are justified and uncondemned, by only believing that the innocent is made by God to be guilty and worthy of death, instead of themselves...

2Th 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Rather than believing the Scripture of truth, that every soul sinning against God, is guilty and worthy of death without God; And only the soul committing the evil, is condemned of God for his own wrong doing, and not another that only does good.
 
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus fulfilled the law by being a sinless man being right in the eyes of God.

Because of that He will suffer living righteously from the hands of the world.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

We see the suffering Jesus did for our benefit was what the world dished out towards Him.

And suffering to be a sacrifice for our sins.

But Jesus did not suffer the punishment and will not that will come upon the guilty.

Jesus did not become guilty because of the guilty for that is impossible.

The Bible says the father will not bear the sins of the son and the son will not bear the sins of the father.

But everyone will bear their own sins which no person is guilty for the sins of other people.

Jesus suffered while in the flesh because of our sins and that is it.

When Jesus went in to the lower parts of the earth to conquer hell He did not suffer but conquered it by bring resurrected from it.

Jesus will do no suffering but in the flesh, and is not guilty for the sins of the world, and will not suffer for the punishment that would come upon the world if He did not come.

Jesus is always sinless and deserves no punishment and no person is guilty for the sins of another person so He did not suffer for them after He died.

Only in the flesh did Jesus suffer for us and not in the afterlife.

Since no person is guilty for another person He did not suffer when He went to conquer hell which is also conquering death.

He conquered death and hell by being raised from and He did not suffer for the guilty.
 
So you're looking at this through the eyes of man, through the physical. God's a spirit. And this, as you must know, is very heavily debated. Not going to be solved in a couple posts on a Christian website. So, pray and ask him about it. See what he says. He'll point to his word. The sheep know his voice, correct? Just putting that out there.