I'll address the idea that "perfect" can not be love in 1 Co 13:8...
First let's see if the words "perfect" and "love" are every connected in Scripture:
1 John 4:16So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
John is talking about God is love. And how WE are PERFECTED by Love. This is the PERFECT that is to come.
So yes "perfect" and "love" are tied together.
Let's see how this fits to 1 Co 13:8:
1 Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
So we see here that LOVE never ends.... But prophesies, tongues, and knowledge will. Has knowledge ended?
1 Co 13:9-10 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
We know God in part. No mention of Scripture ANYWHERE in this entire chapter. And the verse before it says "love will never end". Yep, the perfect is love.
In the NEXT verse Paul talks about what the perfect and imperfect are... Notice how Paul focuses on US not on Scripture to explain this. He is talking about being perfected in love the same as John. Knowing God as He knows us.
1 Co 13:11 "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."
Paul is talking about childish ways (this is doing things NOT out of love) we know this from his entire treatise on love in the beginning of 1 Co 13.
And now we find out what the perfect is:
1 Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
Imperfect: Seeing in a dim mirror. Knowing in part.
Perfect: Knowing fully as we have been known.
Knowing what? Scripture? No. God.
Next verse:
1 Co 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Once again Paul brings it back to LOVE as the greatest. Note the word "So". That means everything he said before it was to make this statement: the greatest of these is love.
And Paul in the NEXT verse says this:
1 Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
So Paul has made a methodical treatment of love. And now he is going to compare tongues and prophesy with this new revelation. Pursue LOVE because it's the greatest AND desire the spiritual gifts. But especially that you would prophesy.
And here the reader is thinking but WHY Prophesy especially, Paul?
And Paul explains why prophesy in the NEXT verses:
1 Co 14:2For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
Paul is saying everything else will pass away. If we don't have love, we have nothing. And with this revelation he is now saying, TONGUES is not the goal. Love is. And love builds others up. And THAT looks like prophesy.
I truly desire and hope we can get beyond this discussion and move into prophesy because that's the spiritual gifting we are to earnestly desire from God. Tongues are amazing, but the church really needs to understand prophesy too. The church is to be BUILT up by the Spirit in each of us as well as the Spirit in ourselves!!! Prophesy takes us into knowing Him as He knows us. Growing in maturity. Having our spiritual senses sharpened. Seeing each other not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. In Christ.
If you have eyes to see it, you'll notice this same thought in Ephesians 4:
11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[SUP]c[/SUP] and teachers,[SUP]d[/SUP] 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[SUP]e[/SUP] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
The 5 fold is for equipping the saints to grow up, into the fullness and maturity of Christ, and as we grow up in HIM, we are built up in love.
I really pray one of you teachers get this, so you can share it in a way that I'm not. The Body needs you to get this!!! This forum is filled with teachers, and teachers right now are growing in understanding of prophesy, so i am praying the church will be built up the way it really can be! Please get this. Just pray about it, seek God about it, let Holy Spirit show you it. Please know my heart. I am not trying to just argue because it's fun. Not at all. Every time I post in here something confrontational, I go and I pray about it. I feel Holy Spirit on specific people in here so I am focus on them because I see the Spirit of God moving in their lives! I am hoping that by communicating my heart that you will pray about this with God. I care about you all and please don't take anything I've written wrong. I am not perfect in my communication, but I am trying to be as clear and direct as possible for equipping sake not for confrontational sake.
Bless you and I pray for each of you to know Him in a greater way, just as I am seeking to know Him more every day as well.
First let's see if the words "perfect" and "love" are every connected in Scripture:
1 John 4:16So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
John is talking about God is love. And how WE are PERFECTED by Love. This is the PERFECT that is to come.
So yes "perfect" and "love" are tied together.
Let's see how this fits to 1 Co 13:8:
1 Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
So we see here that LOVE never ends.... But prophesies, tongues, and knowledge will. Has knowledge ended?
1 Co 13:9-10 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
We know God in part. No mention of Scripture ANYWHERE in this entire chapter. And the verse before it says "love will never end". Yep, the perfect is love.
In the NEXT verse Paul talks about what the perfect and imperfect are... Notice how Paul focuses on US not on Scripture to explain this. He is talking about being perfected in love the same as John. Knowing God as He knows us.
1 Co 13:11 "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways."
Paul is talking about childish ways (this is doing things NOT out of love) we know this from his entire treatise on love in the beginning of 1 Co 13.
And now we find out what the perfect is:
1 Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
Imperfect: Seeing in a dim mirror. Knowing in part.
Perfect: Knowing fully as we have been known.
Knowing what? Scripture? No. God.
Next verse:
1 Co 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Once again Paul brings it back to LOVE as the greatest. Note the word "So". That means everything he said before it was to make this statement: the greatest of these is love.
And Paul in the NEXT verse says this:
1 Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
So Paul has made a methodical treatment of love. And now he is going to compare tongues and prophesy with this new revelation. Pursue LOVE because it's the greatest AND desire the spiritual gifts. But especially that you would prophesy.
And here the reader is thinking but WHY Prophesy especially, Paul?
And Paul explains why prophesy in the NEXT verses:
1 Co 14:2For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. 4The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. 5Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
Paul is saying everything else will pass away. If we don't have love, we have nothing. And with this revelation he is now saying, TONGUES is not the goal. Love is. And love builds others up. And THAT looks like prophesy.
I truly desire and hope we can get beyond this discussion and move into prophesy because that's the spiritual gifting we are to earnestly desire from God. Tongues are amazing, but the church really needs to understand prophesy too. The church is to be BUILT up by the Spirit in each of us as well as the Spirit in ourselves!!! Prophesy takes us into knowing Him as He knows us. Growing in maturity. Having our spiritual senses sharpened. Seeing each other not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. In Christ.
If you have eyes to see it, you'll notice this same thought in Ephesians 4:
11And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[SUP]c[/SUP] and teachers,[SUP]d[/SUP] 12to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[SUP]e[/SUP] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
The 5 fold is for equipping the saints to grow up, into the fullness and maturity of Christ, and as we grow up in HIM, we are built up in love.
I really pray one of you teachers get this, so you can share it in a way that I'm not. The Body needs you to get this!!! This forum is filled with teachers, and teachers right now are growing in understanding of prophesy, so i am praying the church will be built up the way it really can be! Please get this. Just pray about it, seek God about it, let Holy Spirit show you it. Please know my heart. I am not trying to just argue because it's fun. Not at all. Every time I post in here something confrontational, I go and I pray about it. I feel Holy Spirit on specific people in here so I am focus on them because I see the Spirit of God moving in their lives! I am hoping that by communicating my heart that you will pray about this with God. I care about you all and please don't take anything I've written wrong. I am not perfect in my communication, but I am trying to be as clear and direct as possible for equipping sake not for confrontational sake.
Bless you and I pray for each of you to know Him in a greater way, just as I am seeking to know Him more every day as well.