Poll of polls on the longest running debate:

[soberxp]

Since I knew God, I have found that our insignificance is not only relative to the grand scale of the universe, but also in a large human group.The minimum we can do about faith is to believe that Jesus is our Savior, as long as you believe in him But for a larger human group, work is a very trivial thing. Of course, it is not to give up the work that should be done, but sometimes it is powerless.

 

[JonathanBentley]

The whole book of Galatians is about whether or not they were saved after salvation and Paul had doubts they were saved. When you stop believing the cross you lose your salvation. Now we shouldn't judge those who believe the cross. If you believe the cross I'm not going to say you're lost.

 

[Chester]

the issue is your trust in is Christ. and his work.

If you then say you can lose faith (lose salvation) your faith is not really in Christ. its in your ability to continue in the faith.

which is contradictory..

You may say whatever you want about my faith: but you won't change what I know:

I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able and keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

And I know that because of God's grace and love in my heart! It has everything to do with God, and nothing to do with OSAS.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Are there any parables that support this?

John 12:26 If any man serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there also will My servant be. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Notice that Jesus states if any man serves Me, he [[[must]]] follow me.
^
that is a CHOICE one must make.

that removes the GRACE factor of always will be Saved. you actually MUST FOLLOW, which is a CHOICE!

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Lol

we are saved by grace

if it is grace it is no longer of works

those who are saved have eternal life

you are trying to preach conditional life.

there is no initial justification, we are either justified or we are not.

i told you already, those passages are descriptive, not prescriptive. IE, Gods people DO WORKS because they are saved, Not to get saved.

Re: bolded. Are you sure about that? Here are three passages that indicate otherwise.

Mat 18: "27Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt ... 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him."

What happened here? He was forgiven (justified) to begin with, yet not finally saved, because of his unforgiveness toward a fellow servant, as the parable makes clear. So it is clear that forgiveness/justification is not the same as final salvation.

Other verses:

Luk 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience."

Here, we see 4 categories. (1) those who never believe the Word. (2) those who at first receive the Word with joy, believe for a while but then in time of temptation fall away. This itself suggests OSAS is wrong. (3) Then some believe but are choked with cares, riches and pleasures of life and yield no lasting fruit to maturity. (4) And others heard the Word with a good and noble heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. This is how the Lord explains the Gospel. Do you agree with Him?

The final passage is from John 15:

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Mostly self-explanatory. He says they are already clean, which means already justified. He then tells them to abide in Him continually, so that they can bear fruit. Next, He says, if someone does not abide in Him, He can be cast out as a branch.

All these passages, and many more, argue against OSAS.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Where is this written?

Many places. Here is one. In Jn 10:27-30, Jesus Christ explains those who do three things, (1) hear His Voice, i.e. listen to His Teaching, (2) He knows them, and they know Him, i.e. they have continual communion and fellowship with Him, and (3) follow Him, (which includes, as He said, in Mat 16:24, denying oneself, and taking up our Cross, to do so: "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.") will not be plucked out of His hand, which means they will not fall away. OSASers think this applies to all the justified, but it actually only applies to the justified who do those three things the Lord mentions. It is those who never fall away. It is those who are never snatched out of His hand.

Jn 10: 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and My Father are one.”

And in 2 Pet 1:5-11, the Apostle says "if we do these things, we will never stumble". He explains, adding love etc to faith.

2 Pet 1:5 "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

I feel that in Christianity today there is but little emphasis on the cost of discipleship. We want "easy believism", as it is called. It's great to believe Jesus Christ is Our Lord and Savior. I do. After that, we should love Him, strive to keep His Teaching, and grow in His grace, by prayer, by receiving holy Communion, fellowshipping with other believers, reading the Word, doing good works etc. That's what the above passages encourage, and if we do this, we will not stumble, as they say.

PennEd, will answer your post subsequently.

God Bless.

 

[PennEd]

Are there any parables that support this?

So God gives us eternal life through a new Spiritual birth, and then we can supposedly become unborn again by somehow committing Spiritual suicide!

Yes. It’s as ridiculous as it sounds.

 

[PennEd]

Many places. Here is one. In Jn 10:27-30, Jesus Christ explains those who do three things, (1) hear His Voice, i.e. listen to His Teaching, (2) He knows them, and they know Him, i.e. they have continual communion and fellowship with Him, and (3) follow Him, (which includes, as He said, in Mat 16:24, denying oneself, and taking up our Cross, to do so: "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.") will not be plucked out of His hand, which means they will not fall away. OSASers think this applies to all the justified, but it actually only applies to the justified who do those three things the Lord mentions. It is those who never fall away. It is those who are never snatched out of His hand.

Jn 10: 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and My Father are one.”

And in 2 Pet 1:5-11, the Apostle says "if we do these things, we will never stumble". He explains, adding love etc to faith.

2 Pet 1:5 "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

I feel that in Christianity today there is but little emphasis on the cost of discipleship. We want "easy believism", as it is called. It's great to believe Jesus Christ is Our Lord and Savior. I do. After that, we should love Him, strive to keep His Teaching, and grow in His grace, by prayer, by receiving holy Communion, fellowshipping with other believers, reading the Word, doing good works etc. That's what the above passages encourage, and if we do this, we will not stumble, as they say.

PennEd, will answer your post subsequently.

God Bless.

This is complete and utter reliance on YOUR deeds and works.

It is offensive to God, who saw His Son so upset with what was about to happen to Him, that He sweat Blood, in asking Him if there was ANY other way.
There was NO other way.

Imagine how outraged God is when someone thinks they can do something to attain or maintain that for which His Son paid for so dearly.

 

[Snacks]

Many places. Here is one. In Jn 10:27-30, Jesus Christ explains those who do three things, (1) hear His Voice, i.e. listen to His Teaching, (2) He knows them, and they know Him, i.e. they have continual communion and fellowship with Him, and (3) follow Him, (which includes, as He said, in Mat 16:24, denying oneself, and taking up our Cross, to do so: "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.") will not be plucked out of His hand, which means they will not fall away. OSASers think this applies to all the justified, but it actually only applies to the justified who do those three things the Lord mentions. It is those who never fall away. It is those who are never snatched out of His hand.

Jn 10: 27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and My Father are one.”

And in 2 Pet 1:5-11, the Apostle says "if we do these things, we will never stumble". He explains, adding love etc to faith.

2 Pet 1:5 "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

I feel that in Christianity today there is but little emphasis on the cost of discipleship. We want "easy believism", as it is called. It's great to believe Jesus Christ is Our Lord and Savior. I do. After that, we should love Him, strive to keep His Teaching, and grow in His grace, by prayer, by receiving holy Communion, fellowshipping with other believers, reading the Word, doing good works etc. That's what the above passages encourage, and if we do this, we will not stumble, as they say.

PennEd, will answer your post subsequently.

God Bless.

I don’t see any correlation between the verses you’ve shared and “perseverance is a grace God gives later on”. I’ve never heard of such a concept. God dangling the perpetual carrot of grace and security.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

This is complete and utter reliance on YOUR deeds and works.

It is offensive to God, who saw His Son so upset with what was about to happen to Him, that He sweat Blood, in asking Him if there was ANY other way.
There was NO other way.

Imagine how outraged God is when someone thinks they can do something to attain or maintain that for which His Son paid for so dearly.

I cited 5 Scripture passages above. You didn't quote and exegete even one. No, it is not reliance on myself. It is reliance on the Holy Spirit within me to to bear the fruit Christ wants me to bear. Please explain how you understand John 15.

Also, is this what you are calling "complete and utter reliance on yourself"?

"2 Pet 1:5 "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

I didn't say it. The Word of God said it. Again, what is your understanding of this passage?

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

I don’t see any correlation between the verses you’ve shared and “perseverance is a grace God gives later on”.

Well, let's start with the second one, then. What is Peter saying? He is saying, be diligent and add virtue, knowledge ... love etc to faith. And he says, after you do this, God will help you never stumble in your faith, so that you will receive a rich welcome into the Kingdom of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That means some things are expected of us to do before God gives us the grace "to never stumble" again. Can you explain the Parable of the Sower where it says some believe but later fall away?

Be back later. God Bless.

 

[Snacks]

Again, what is your understanding of this passage?

It has to do with living in a glorifying manner which will benefit everyone around you. It has nothing to do with securing one’s salvation.

 

[Rosemaryx]

This is complete and utter reliance on YOUR deeds and works.

It is offensive to God, who saw His Son so upset with what was about to happen to Him, that He sweat Blood, in asking Him if there was ANY other way.
There was NO other way.

Imagine how outraged God is when someone thinks they can do something to attain or maintain that for which His Son paid for so dearly.

Jude 1:24
Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into His glorious presence without a single fault...

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Salvation is indeed a FREE GIFT!

how many times have we gotten FREE CHRISTMAS GIFTS and either have returned them for money, something else, or just hid it out of sight never to use/wear it?

a person has the same right to do that with Salvation. they can give it back, refuse to accept it after awhile, pretend it never happened and live like they did before.

not sure why this is so difficult for the ultimate Grace pushers to accept.

maybe they need to be reminded that Denial [[is not]] a River that runs through Egypt!

Salvation and eternal life are gifts.

If you do not have enough faith in those gift to cherish them, Did you ever truly trust to begin with.

God does not just give those gifts to anyone. He only gives them to people who truly believe,

trying to compair salvation and eternal life with a toy is pretty telling

 

[PennEd]

I cited 5 Scripture passages above. You didn't quote and exegete even one. No, it is not reliance on myself. It is reliance on the Holy Spirit within me to to bear the fruit Christ wants me to bear. Please explain how you understand John 15.

Also, is this what you are calling "complete and utter reliance on yourself"?

"2 Pet 1:5 "But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

I didn't say it. The Word of God said it. Again, what is your understanding of this passage?

No issues with Scripture. Just your terrible commentary on it:

“will not be plucked out of His hand, which means they will not fall away. OSASers think this applies to all the justified, but it actually only applies to the justified who do those three things the Lord mentions. It is those who never fall away. It is those who are never snatched out of His hand.”

YOU just said right here that YOU have to perform some act, deed, or work in order to be justified, which means saved.

Utter heresy.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

That's your opinion. I also asked you to give your interpretation of Jn 15 and 2 Pet 1:5-11 that I cited. You haven't done that. These passages teach exactly what you deny.

As for John 10, firstly, I didn't say what you think I said: "YOU have to perform some act, deed, or work in order to be justified, which means saved", even the first part is wrong.

Firstly, I didn't say we need to perform some work to be justified, I spoke of those already justified.

I said those who are already justified are commanded by the Lord to do some things in order to gain the grace to persevere. 2 Pet 1:5-11 says the same: be diligent to add virtue, knowledge, love etc to faith, and then you will never stumble.

As for "justified, which means saved", that begs the question. That is what OSASers claim and non-OSASers deny.

Now, please interpret these three passages for us.

1. Jn 15 and the Lord saying branches in Him can be cut off. He says they are already clean, i.e. justified.
2. The Parable of the Sower cited above. It clearly says some believe at first but then later fall away.
3. And 2 Pet 1:5-11. Initial Justification is by grace through faith. In order to "never stumble", yes, you and I have to do certain things - the things you and I are commanded to do in this passage in 2 Peter.

 

[ResidentAlien]

The whole book of Galatians is about whether or not they were saved after salvation and Paul had doubts they were saved. When you stop believing the cross you lose your salvation. Now we shouldn't judge those who believe the cross. If you believe the cross I'm not going to say you're lost.

So true:

"Stand fast therefore in the freedom in which Christ has made us free, and do not be loaded down again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You have become severed from Christ, you who are justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Galatian 5:1-4​

The truth is plain as the nose on your face. Some people are simply blind to. Why is that? That's anyone's guess. Maybe they don't know the scriptures as well as they think they do. Maybe they've been so indoctrinated by a denomination or theology they can't see past it. I wouldn't say they're lost either; but if they don't at some point acquire a genuine love of truth they may become lost.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You may say whatever you want about my faith: but you won't change what I know:

I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able and keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

And I know that because of God's grace and love in my heart! It has everything to do with God, and nothing to do with OSAS.

It has everything to do with eternal life

You either have it or you do not

If you have it, You don't lose it..

if you don;t have it, you never had it.

You can't say you trust Christ, then say you believe if you lose faith you will lose salvation.. You contradict yourself..

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Jude 1:24
Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into His glorious presence without a single fault...

And please read verses 20 and 21 also in Jude 1.

"Maintain Your Life with God
"20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

https://biblehub.com/nkjv/jude/1.htm

So what we are commanded to do in this passage? (1) Build ourselves up in the holy faith (2) pray in the Holy Spirit (3) keep ourselves in the love of God (4) and look (Greek actually has "προσδεχόμενοι (prosdechomenoi)" which means "as you await or wait for" as other translations render it) for the Mercy of Our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

God Bless.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Re: bolded. Are you sure about that? Here are three passages that indicate otherwise.

Mat 18: "27Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt ... 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him."

What happened here? He was forgiven (justified) to begin with, yet not finally saved, because of his unforgiveness toward a fellow servant, as the parable makes clear. So it is clear that forgiveness/justification is not the same as final salvation.

Other verses:

Luk 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience."

Here, we see 4 categories. (1) those who never believe the Word. (2) those who at first receive the Word with joy, believe for a while but then in time of temptation fall away. This itself suggests OSAS is wrong. (3) Then some believe but are choked with cares, riches and pleasures of life and yield no lasting fruit to maturity. (4) And others heard the Word with a good and noble heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. This is how the Lord explains the Gospel. Do you agree with Him?

The final passage is from John 15:

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Mostly self-explanatory. He says they are already clean, which means already justified. He then tells them to abide in Him continually, so that they can bear fruit. Next, He says, if someone does not abide in Him, He can be cast out as a branch.

All these passages, and many more, argue against OSAS.

You can not relegate fruit passages to salvation. That is sanctification.. In john 15. the words literally say in the greek that he lifts up. (takes away is the incorrect interpretation)

as for the 4 examples. Only the last one was ever saved., that is why he bore fruit. because he was attached to the vine

as for the first example. God saved Israel. and yet they turned and refused to forgive others.. Not everyone in Israel was saved. Jesus was making a point. just because your forgiveness was purchased does not mean you were ever saved. Jesus paid it all. for the hwole world.

eternal life is eternal. not conditional.