in order for you to create this post you had to twist what John 12 is saying and what i am saying.
you seem rather well versed in doing just that!
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you seem rather well versed in doing just that!
in John 12 Jesus is telling us we make a CHOICE to Follow Him.
that's not GRACE, because GRACE is what Jesus did on the Cross. it's not a Doctrine, it's a WORK done by God.
and you can either CHOOSE it or DENY it!
that's not GRACE, because GRACE is what Jesus did on the Cross. it's not a Doctrine, it's a WORK done by God.
and you can either CHOOSE it or DENY it!
Source for that?
Virtually every translation renders it cut off or taken away, which is what the context suggests also. He cuts off is αἴρει (airei). It is possible, agreed, for this word to be rendered as "lifted up", but the contest suggests otherwise.
How do you read the passage? Every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit, He lifts up? What does that mean?
That's not correct. Christ said clearly about the second: "13But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."
See how clearly He says, they believe for a while then fall away. Since faith justifies, it justified him too, when he believed. He was justified but not saved. You see, OSAS is not the Doctrine of Christ, it is a doctrine of man.
Sorry, that's a total misreading of the passage. Jesus is clearly speaking about a particular unforgiving servant.
That particular servant was justified at first. The Jews who did not believe in Christ were never justified.
That particular servant, who was at first justified, later on fell from grace and became lost. Again, justified but not saved.
Also, whom did Israel refuse to forgive exactly? Israel's - i.e. the Pharisees' - sin was not unforgiveness but unbelief.
Eternal Life is a Metaphor for the Holy Spirit. When you receive the Holy Spirit, you have Eternal Life in you.
But if you sin unto death, e.g. by apostasy, as it says in 1 Jn 5, 2 Pet 2, Heb 6, Heb 10, etc, you return from Life to Death.
God Bless.
i like it when Jesus flat out tells us ONE THING and people deny it because of what they interpret Paul said.
Jesus is GOD!!
His WORDS are first and foremost EVERY TIME, not Paul's!
Jesus is GOD!!
His WORDS are first and foremost EVERY TIME, not Paul's!
twist what John 12 is saying? you did not quote John 12 so I am not sure what you are talking about.
read John 14:10, Jesus WORDS are actually the FATHER'S WORDS Who is DWELLING inside Jesus.
so the Father's WORDS outrank Paul's any day!
so the Father's WORDS outrank Paul's any day!
Grace is the REASON we can be saved we are saved BY Grace.
Yes you can chose or deny, whoever does not believe in condemned already. whoever believes is not condemned because they have believed.
and i agree with this 100%
i also know that had Job cursed God Job would have died. so even those who once believed could choose to stop believing. John 12 is about CHOICE. we CHOOSE to Follow and we can CHOOSE to stop following.
Its because Jesus used terms that vinedressers would understand
A branch that is on the ground can not produce fruit, So the vinedresser lifts up the branch from the ground so it can start to produce fruit..so yes, in context it SHOULD be lifts up. because of how it is used.
They believed, it does not say they trusted.. Many people believe, even demons believe (see James 2) we are saved through faith, not mere belief)
eternal life is not a metaphor.
It is eternal (forever, never ending, without end) life
In john 3, as well as John 6 jesus said they will never perish and have eternal life
John would not contradict himself
He said in his epistle that there were people who had departed from us (which means they walked with us) and have now denied christ, which means they are now a non believer. John makes it clear they were never of us, for if they WERE truly of us, they never would have left.
People do not walk away in unbelief unless they never truly believed to begin with.
People return to law. because their faith was always in the law
they return to religion, because that is where their true faith was
they return to being an unbeliever because they never truly believed in the first place.
God does not make mistakes,..
when the Father speaking through Jesus in John 12 tells us [[YOU MUST FOLLOW]] that is a COMMAND.
what do we do with commands?
we either subject ourselves through submission and obey, which is a CHOICE
or
we say NO, which is also a CHOICE
the Father is so clever because this Verse tosses the entire GRACE BALONEY DOCTRINE out the window!
what do we do with commands?
we either subject ourselves through submission and obey, which is a CHOICE
or
we say NO, which is also a CHOICE
the Father is so clever because this Verse tosses the entire GRACE BALONEY DOCTRINE out the window!
It really does not matter what man says: it matters what God says.
He says that those who believe have eternal life. Those who do not believe do not have eternal life. I believe and therefore I know that I have eternal llfe.
Pretty simple and I believe it.
He did not just say they have eternal life. He said they will never die
so if you can die. after you recieve the promise of never perishing and having eternal life.. well then God lied.
Again, is your faith in God to keep you. or yourself to keep yourself.
You base your whole belief structure on one verse? If one verse is all we need, why don't we just keep this verse and throw out the rest?
St. Paul the Apostle on OSAS: "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." (1 Cor 9:27)
This verse disproves OSAS, because it shows Apostle Paul considered as a possibility that he could become disqualified, which OSAS says is impossible. It also shows, as per the consistent teaching of Christ in the Gospel, that those who do truly believe (and obviously St. Paul did truly believe) can really fall away. And if someone says only OSASers are saved, then the absurdity follows that St. Paul was not saved, because he proclaimed as a possibility that he could become a castaway here.
The KJV renders this place as castaway. The Greek word is ἀδόκιμος. Either castaway or disqualified essentially captures it.
St. Peter the Apostle on OSAS: "Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.” (Mat 26:33)
This would be the Clearest Proof of OSAS in the Bible, if only it were true! But as we all know, it didn't turn out that way. St. Peter was one of the first to deny Christ that night, that dark night with its great trials that he did not anticipate, and he sinned and fell. Of course, the Lord forgave and restored him later on. But what is the Holy Ghost trying to teach us here? That often, the very person who says, that even if everyone else falls away from Christ, he never will, might be first to fall.
So we should be careful and not say like that. Rather, we should say, "I hope the Holy Spirit by God's Grace preserves me from falling". If St. Peter, who worked so many miracles in the Lord's Name, fell, can we say we never will?
If St. Paul, who wrote 13 books of Scripture, and Evangelized so many for the Lord, says he could become disqualified, what should that teach us? The Lord said: "But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved." (Mat 24:13)
We must pray for the Grace to Persevere, not presume we have already received it. And when we do persevere to the end in faith in Christ, not only ourselves but every one will know we did receive it, just as we know it of Peter and Paul today.
Will cite some other passages from Peter and Paul later on, like Heb 6 and 10 and 2 Pet 2 that also touch on the issue.
God Bless.
This verse disproves OSAS, because it shows Apostle Paul considered as a possibility that he could become disqualified, which OSAS says is impossible. It also shows, as per the consistent teaching of Christ in the Gospel, that those who do truly believe (and obviously St. Paul did truly believe) can really fall away. And if someone says only OSASers are saved, then the absurdity follows that St. Paul was not saved, because he proclaimed as a possibility that he could become a castaway here.
The KJV renders this place as castaway. The Greek word is ἀδόκιμος. Either castaway or disqualified essentially captures it.
St. Peter the Apostle on OSAS: "Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.” (Mat 26:33)
This would be the Clearest Proof of OSAS in the Bible, if only it were true! But as we all know, it didn't turn out that way. St. Peter was one of the first to deny Christ that night, that dark night with its great trials that he did not anticipate, and he sinned and fell. Of course, the Lord forgave and restored him later on. But what is the Holy Ghost trying to teach us here? That often, the very person who says, that even if everyone else falls away from Christ, he never will, might be first to fall.
So we should be careful and not say like that. Rather, we should say, "I hope the Holy Spirit by God's Grace preserves me from falling". If St. Peter, who worked so many miracles in the Lord's Name, fell, can we say we never will?
If St. Paul, who wrote 13 books of Scripture, and Evangelized so many for the Lord, says he could become disqualified, what should that teach us? The Lord said: "But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved." (Mat 24:13)
We must pray for the Grace to Persevere, not presume we have already received it. And when we do persevere to the end in faith in Christ, not only ourselves but every one will know we did receive it, just as we know it of Peter and Paul today.
Will cite some other passages from Peter and Paul later on, like Heb 6 and 10 and 2 Pet 2 that also touch on the issue.
God Bless.
as a Doctrine it most certainly is.
the Gospel of Yeshua the Messiah includes Grace-Mercy and Everything Else.
the Doctrine of Grace alone is sacrilegious on its own merit of teaching.
am i saved by Grace?
Yes!!
because i am saved by when God bestowed His GRACE or God's Redemption At Christ's Expense upon the Cross.
but that Doctrine is the Gospel of Christ, not the Doctrine of Grace.
because while God bestowed His Grace upon the Cross, He also bestowed His Mercy, His Love, His Favor, His Long Suffering.
but we don't separate those into a Doctrine of Mercy, Doctrine of Love, Doctrine of Long Suffering, NOR a Doctrine of Grace. it is ALL already included in the Gospel of Christ!
these separate Doctrines are IDOLS when they should be the Staples to the Work upon the Cross.
the doctrine of grace INCLUDES Gods mercy, love, favor and long suffering
without those. there is no grace.
why are they IDOLS when alone?
look at how it's been twisted that one can be Saved and then can literally become a Satan Worshiper and still be Saved by Grace.
WRONG!!
some versions include a License to Sin!
WRONG!!
look at how it's been twisted that one can be Saved and then can literally become a Satan Worshiper and still be Saved by Grace.
WRONG!!
some versions include a License to Sin!
WRONG!!
sorry my friend, Just because people turn the grace of God to licentiousness does not mean the doctrine of grace is in error.
As Jude said, their condemnation was preordained.
Grace is not a license to sin.