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Hi Drett, Thanks for the reply.
Can you please refer me to cases where it is explicitly stated that polygamy is not only acceptible, but also is part of God's created design. I think you will appreciate the difference between the two when we consider the relevance that distcintion has to the related question of divorce. Jesus explicitly states that he and Moses teach two different things on the issue of divorce, so it is also important we clarify that question in this matter as well.
Answering that question will also help us answer how this question relates to your quote from Matthew 5:17, which critically turns on what is meant by the world 'fulfill'.
As for Augustine, again, you assert that he 'invented' the banning of polygamy in Christianity, and the only proof you offer is that he wrote against the practice. You ignore my previous post where I specifically name other pre-Augustinian writers who also write against the practice. I could also reference the pre-Christian Hillelites, or the Qumran community, as examples of people who thought polygamy was an objectionable practice for contemporary communities.
I did not say Augustine referred specifically to the the teaching of Jesus, I simply said he was reasoning from the Scriptures, which he does. He also reasons against it in that it is not acceptable under civil law. He makes the point that the church fathers did not have multiple wives out of lust, but for the purposes of filling the earth, which I think is questionable (I disagree with Augustine?! What?). But really, it matters little to me what you think of what Augustine wrote. I'm happy to cede the point - I have no particular desire to defend the specifics of Augustine's argument on the matter, as I merely referred to it as a secondary matter.
If you wish to deal with the specifics of Jesus teaching (which you did not address in your last post, only to say he did not make an explicit stateent. However, as I have already written, I do believe he makes at the very least a relevant remark)
Really? That's an argument from silence if ever I've seen one.
For reference, here is a short list of other things Jesus did not come straight out and explicitly ban:
1. Being drunk
2. Rape
3. homosexual sex
4. abortion
5. cannibalism
6. Drug taking
7. Speeding
8. belief and practice of witchcraft
Jesus can reject things by the principle of what he teaches, not just by explicitly saying "do this, do that". In fact, to often be deliberately general and image-based in his teaching is quite a Jesus kind of thing to do. You will have to show me Jesus not banning polygamy outright is sufficient to accept polygamy, particularly given the teaching of the rest of the Bible.
Hi Nick
My time is short so I just answer this part for now. The list you provided was activities that have already been banned so Jesus did not need to make further comments on it. If something is accepted and needs to be banned then it needs to be explicitly banned. People continued polygamy for centuries after Jesus ascended into heaven because it was still accepted.
The only way I can really reconcile the idea of polygamy is that it was the culture of the time of the Bible. The Hebrews treated their women a lot better than many of the surrounding people. Since Jesus was radical in his treatment of women, it is inconsistent for God to have so little regard for women to have polygamy as the ideal family. If you really look closely, the law gives a first wife even more rights than a divorce with the husband being required to take care of her and—after he brings in wife #2—put up with her for the rest of her life. I think this is an example of God working within the culture that exists instead of radically overhauling it overnight.
Another example is slavery. He gives commands on how slaves and owners are to treat each other. Thorough analysis of scripture as a whole shows that slavery is not an ideal social construct. I think the same is true for polygamy.
Another example is slavery. He gives commands on how slaves and owners are to treat each other. Thorough analysis of scripture as a whole shows that slavery is not an ideal social construct. I think the same is true for polygamy.
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Here's what I don't understand in what you're saying: The first woman you marry is the wife period. You both are bonded together with the ordination of God. The second woman you sleep with is called adultery. There is no marriage, not in God's eyes as God is the only one that gives the OK. Marriage is not something from man first off, it is from God only, make no mistake about that.
The third woman is adultery also, you are not married but to the first. You may have a piece of paper you may have this and that, but you don't have God's say so. Period. NO IF'S, NO AND'S, AND NO BUT'S. You only have sin of adultery.
And, the same for the forth woman.
Now, divorce? You can only divorce the woman you were married to by God. You can't divorce a woman you are not married to which is woman #2, #3, and #4. You can only stop sinning by adultery with them.
Now it does say in the NT By the Lords command that under certain conditions you may divorce your spouse. But yes, it was not so from the beginning, which anyone with brains knows was the Marriage of Adam and Eve by God, NOT MAN. It is not in man's power to marry anyone except it is given to man to do so by God. But again, it can only be of one man and one woman.
Therefore polygamy is not the marrying of a man to two or more woman simply so because God in His righteousness only marries one man to one woman. The second woman or more is only the sin of adultery. And this is ordained from God from the beginning of mankind.
Abram had one wife Sarai and Hagar was Sarai's maid servant. Once again like Eve deceiving Adam, Sarai deceived Abram as she had no right giving Hagar to Abram to act as a wife in the first place. And, Abram committed adultery with Hagar, God never married them. Did God give the OK? No. Sarai did. Who was she to give orders to man? No one!
Read this carefully and you'll see Abram never excepted Hagar as a wife because He still called Hagar, Sarai's handmaid who it shows was still under the command's of Sarai. How could one wife be over another wife? They would be equal. So the only thing you have here is deception and adultery:
Gen 16:1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. 2And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. 3And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 4And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. 5And Sarai said unto Abram, MY WRONG be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. 6But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
7And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. 9And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. 10And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
B
Bryancampbell
Guest
Good one except bipolar is not split personality they are two separate things.
B
Bryancampbell
Guest
If it were, I would had gone with Leo's post. Preach to them each the gospel, then divorce em all but one.
When someone wife has Bipolar, in spiritual sense, that person has a battle of many demons in them that is trying to push away the good spirits or a person good nature. As it says that no one can serve two, because eventually they will choose one over the other like David had chosen to love Bathsheba over the other wives. If a person has more than one wife, their household will be consider a Bipolar household. Paul has said that there will be many obstacles to deal with just only one person, but imagine that if a person has to deal with two or greater. Abraham had to women in his bed and which he was doing a lot of tossing and turning in the bed with his wives until one of his wives kicked the other from out of the bedroom, and which God approved.
If it were, I would had gone with Leo's post. Preach to them each the gospel, then divorce em all but one.
That's what I was explaining in that long post, you can't divorce the other three because you aren't married to them in the first place by God's own ordinances- one man...one woman. It's literally impossible for a man to be married to more than one woman. The second and succeeding woman are only adulterers, they are not wives. Man can call them wives but they aren't because God is the one who decides the rules, not man.
So polygamy is another stupid man made word for something impossible for man to do. The real word can only be adultery.
You got me confused on that one. Demons? No No, there's no demons with bipolar as certain chemicals taken in the form of pills controls it. Demons cannot be controlled by pills.
And one again, Abram had only one wife, Hagar was always Sarai's maidservant never Abrams wife. He slept with her, but that is not an ordained marriage by God.
L
LT
Guest
You are kinda forcing me to play "devil's advocate" here, because I have already stated that: I found where the Bible shows polygamy as immoral. HOWEVER, your definition of marriage and adultery is purely American, and is not found in the Bible at all. You are speaking about things that God does not say, as if they are just fact. You use the term "in God's eyes", but how can YOU speak for God if He has not spoken for it in His Word?
You are claiming that God only recognizes ONE marriage. Prove that in the Bible. At least try to prove that He only accepts one marriage at a time.
Abraham's situation is complicated, but where in the Bible does it call it "adultery?" It calls it immoral BECAUSE Abraham never married Hagar, which means it was fornication. David committed adultery with Bathsheba because she was already MARRIED to another man. Do not confuse adultery and fornication. Adultery is having sex with someone who is married to someone else. Fornication is sex with someone you are not married to. (Hagar did not commit adultery with Abraham because Sarah forced her to, as her master. Sarah is the one who sinned here)
God told David that what he did was wrong, but did not tell him to DIVORCE Bathsheba!
There are plenty of examples of second and 3rd marriages that are BLESSED by God! In fact, if God did not RECOGNIZE 2nd or 3rd or 4th marriages, HOW ARE THERE 12 TRIBES of Israel? If God did not recognize 2nd or 3rd marriages, then Jesus could not be considered an heir to the throne of David.
I am not posting this to support polygamy, but to speak rightly of God. Do not put words in His mouth. The Bible shows polygamy in the same light that it shows slavery "allowed, but but immoral".
L
LT
Guest
The fact that there are 12 tribes of Israel destroys your argument. God does recognize multiple wives as legitimate marriages.
Jeremiah 17:5This is what the Lord says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the Lord.
Ephesians 6:12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Acts 5:16Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.
1 Corinthians 6:16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.”
Those impure spirits are not bipolar sorry. It's called a chemical imbalance in the brain. Study.
And yes the two will become one flesh and it doesn't say the three will become one flesh...There is a big difference between the state of marriage and the state of adultery.
L
LT
Guest
I'm not saying that the three become one. When a person lay with a woman, they become one. And if that same person lay with another, they has forsaken their first love for another and which that is a divorce and which God doesn't believe that a soul should forsake another soul that they are committed to. Sarai was handed over to pharoah to be his wife with the approval of Abram. But God had intervene to not let that happen as He had intervene and told Abram to listen to his wife.
About the bipolar; I haven't seen no one that has been cured by pills. The excuse they uses why it doesn't work is that they were given the wrong doses or prescriptions.
Columbine, Bullying, and the Mind of Eric Harris | Psychology Today
It's ok, but I didn't say it was a cure, I only say the right chemical pills put the mind back into balance and poof, Your demon is gone. So it wasn't a demon to begin with.