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HappyLuke
Guest
& Are you implying that I wouldn't want there to be a God? That I'm willingly ignoring evidence that I personally understand to be valid? perhaps even secretly a believer that's rebelling from God?
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Theophane
Guest
No, I can't. Not with "evidence" and "reasoning" as you know them. All claims and evidence offered given to you by other people cannot hope to replicate the internal transformation that happens when you allow God Himself to do the convincing.
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moretalman
Guest
Happy Luke: Let me recommend a book to you "More than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. Get the updated version that was
published in the 2000's. It's a 125 page book thats a little bigger than a post card. It's less than a 2 hour read for most people.
published in the 2000's. It's a 125 page book thats a little bigger than a post card. It's less than a 2 hour read for most people.
As a start, why don't you try looking up historical evidence of Jesus walking on the face of the earth, and places that have been affected by God according to the bible! 
I saw a couple of documentaries about archaeologists and explorers finding sites that have lined up with biblical events. Taking it a step further, why not visit them? I'd join you if I could, I would LOVE to see these sites.
The one thing I remembered about the documentary was Mt.Sinai. The tipical Mt.Sinai of today doesn't line up with some parts of the bible, so they went to some other mountain that had a sort of nasty black tar or rubble on top of it (Perhaps God's lightning and fire) and the "places or markings" that God told Moses to lay around the mountain were also there, so that people wouldn't climb up and get killed by his awesomeness LOL, in addition to that - Today, they have a fence around it... You know, Because everyone builds fences around a meaningless mountain.
well, that's just my two cents... I'm not completely convinced, but it'll have to do for now.
Exodus 19
I saw a couple of documentaries about archaeologists and explorers finding sites that have lined up with biblical events. Taking it a step further, why not visit them? I'd join you if I could, I would LOVE to see these sites.The one thing I remembered about the documentary was Mt.Sinai. The tipical Mt.Sinai of today doesn't line up with some parts of the bible, so they went to some other mountain that had a sort of nasty black tar or rubble on top of it (Perhaps God's lightning and fire) and the "places or markings" that God told Moses to lay around the mountain were also there, so that people wouldn't climb up and get killed by his awesomeness LOL, in addition to that - Today, they have a fence around it... You know, Because everyone builds fences around a meaningless mountain.
well, that's just my two cents... I'm not completely convinced, but it'll have to do for now.
Exodus 19
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Theophane
Guest
As a start, why don't you try looking up historical evidence of Jesus walking on the face of the earth, and places that have been affected by God according to the bible!
The one thing I remembered about the documentary was Mt.Sinai. The tipical Mt.Sinai of today doesn't line up with some parts of the bible, so they went to some other mountain that had a sort of nasty black tar or rubble on top of it (Perhaps God's lightning and fire) and the "places or markings" that God told Moses to lay around the mountain were also there, so that people wouldn't climb up and get killed by his awesomeness LOL, in addition to that - Today, they have a fence around it... You know, Because everyone builds fences around a meaningless mountain. well, that's just my two cents... I'm not completely convinced, but it'll have to do for now.
I'm not that there is any physical evidence that could not be disputed or discredited in some way.
For the unbeliever, no evidence is possible. For the believer, no evidence is necessary.
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BeenForgiven
Guest
Luke.... I can empathize in a way. I was that way with several different "social issues" and wrestled with the Lord. Many people told me their views etc, but I had to see it from Jesus. He eventually answered me in a way that I could accept. I will be praying that the Lord will speak to you in a way that YOU can receive. I will pray that the Lord will allow the blindness to pass away and that you will see Him clearly and be able to believe because you know the truth in your heart!
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stevef
Guest
Yep I was raised by pretty awesome parents, a very cultured and travelled hippy mother, and a very logical and moral science nerd
I found your last sentence fascinating, it kind of works the other way for me. I see so much suffering and evil in the world and I think it makes it unlikely that a just and loving God exists and is constantly watching out for us and controlling things.
You obviously believe that there is such a thing as good and evil, and that following good is the right way to live, and maybe that is in large part due to your parents. But wouldn't that suggest that there is more than just the physical world? I also believe most people feel good when they try to follow what Christ taught as opposed to indulging in the me first materialism that is taught by the world. If this physical world is all there is wouldn't it be more profitable to follow evil (greed, gluttony, selfishness, etc)? And I think some Christians believe God controls everything while others, like myself, believe that God gave us free will, and man creates most of his own messes and evil in the world, often thru sin. I don't blame God for that and there is something in me that needs to believe there is a loving God who will make things right and just in the end, even if that doesn't happen until we leave this earth. If there is an after life, and I believe there is, the time we spend on this earth is a second in time compared to eternity. I can't explain or understand many things about this great creative power we call God, but I can accept that maybe that's the way it's suppose to be for now, and maybe we get many of our questions answered after we pass on. But as I said before, in my limited understanding of reality something had to create this wonderous universe, or at least start and guide the process. The exact nature of what did that and how that happened I can't fully understand, but it's what many of us call God the creator. But for me it's a better explanation than a big bang theory (where did the material come from?) and that explosion just happened to end up in this ridiculously spectacular universe we live in. You may not be convinced in God the creator but how do you scientifically explain this intricate universe coming from nothing?
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Feynman
Guest
Hiiii
Agnostic here >" wouldn't that suggest that there is more than just the physical world?"
- We are evolved to be cooperative, colonial, social animals. Like bees or ants, evolved with instincts to work together and care about others. Apart from some severely psychotic or severely autistic exceptions, we are all born with brains that naturally empathize and sympathize
>"If this physical world is all there is wouldn't it be more profitable to follow evil (greed, gluttony, selfishness, etc)? "
- No for the same reason, we want to live in a kind of society that only works if we cooperate
The enormous perks and profits of cooperation and of caring about other people can be seen in the wealthy, educated, relatively safe lives we lead.
>"But for me it's a better explanation than a big bang theory (where did the material come from?) "
- The big bang theory is confirmed, but it doesn't go back far enough to tell us where all the material came from. We don't know yet, possibly God, possibly some eternal state or something. We do know that the universe expanded from an ultra hot plasma about 14 billion years ago though
So the way you consider God as a rival theory to the big bang is a little wrong, the big bang isn't proposed as an explanation of what created everything, it's just the history of the universe as far back as we know so far.
>"how do you scientifically explain this intricate universe coming from nothing?"
- Nobody has proven that it came from nothing, in fact that might be impossible, we aren't sure. In a big way there's no reason to think a state of nothing has ever existed. But, gravity creates the intricate, complex things like galaxies and solar systems by making very simple clouds collapse into clumps. The hot early universe was very smooth and simple, very uniform (the kind of thing you'd expect from an expanding dense super-plasma). Gravity's attraction brings it all together into clumps
Gravity creates complex things from simplicity, making reality seem like something you wouldn't expect from an explosion on a small scale, like we are used to
If you blew up a stick of dynamite, you'd only end up with chaotic scattered remains.
If you blew up a stick of dynamite the size of a few suns, the resulting cloud of chaotic, simply arranged particles will gravitationally clump together to form stars and planets and whatever complex chemical reactions happen on the surface of those planets
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stevef
Guest
Feynman-I appreciate your response but maybe I've got a simple mind because some of it still doesn't make sense to me. To me there's still a dimension, power, or whatever you want to call it (I call God) that is beyond my understanding who created and guided the creation process. I don't understand something coming from nothing and I don't know how science can ever explain that. You can say that a state of nothing may never have existed, and I would agree, but it is what I call God, because there is no way science can ever explain that to me that will make any sense. In our world and my understanding, everything has a beginning except God, and that's why he's God. And while socialization may explain why most people care for each other to a certain degree, my faith teaches me to go beyond that, including to forgive and love those that may hurt me. It's when I reach that level of love that I feel most satisfied, and my experience is that I am happier and more fulfilled because of my faith and belief in God and Jesus Christ. I also have much more peace in my heart, soul, whatever you want to call it, believing there is a loving and just God who will right the terrible suffering and trajedy that goes on in this world in the place we call heaven. Some may call it a crutch, weakness, or whatever, but it works for me and millions of other people of faith. For me that confirms my faith. You sound similar to my sons (and me when I was young), who have a lot of tough questions about God, some I can't answer. But that's good and maybe it's the way it's suppose to be, otherwise there's no room for faith. And maybe we are all agnostic to a certain degree because I can't prove the existence of God to you any more than you can prove to me that he doesn't exist. You may be happy as an agnostic, but there likely will come a time in your life when you will need faith in a power higher than yourself, it just seems that we humans are made that way. It may be social/religious teaching, or it may be we were made to need the God I believe created us. You sound like you have a background in science, or have done a lot of research into the creation process because you obviously are very intelligent and are seeking answers. But to me scientific discovery reinforces my wonder and faith in God, and I'm sure it's the same for some in the scientific community. This post was started by HappyLuke, who is looking for the answers he needs to convince him of God's existence. It sounds like you also need convincing thru scientific discovery, and that may never come. Belief in God still requires a decision and a step of faith, which is a decision each person can only make for themselves. That's a need and a decision you may not want or need to make now or ever, but for me it's a decision I needed to make and I have more peace and happiness because I did. We probably aren't going to convince each other because our beliefs are our beliefs, but I appreciate where you're at because I was there too as are my two sons, and I do hope you understand me and people of faith a little better as well.
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moretalman
Guest
Feynman: I'm a believer. I'm passionately convinced that God Almighty maker of all that is, came to earth in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ prophesied of by the Hebrew prophets. I also believe in the Big Bang. I believe God said: Let there be light & BANG! there was light. And while I wasn't there to witness it, (had I been I would have been sure to have video taped it all & then I could have proved it to all of you skeptics) I think it's probably safe to assume that it was a big bang, a very big bang. On second thought it could have been a little bang, or maybe it was a medium sized bang - ya know what, it just dawned on me, since none of us were there to witness it, determining just how it all happened could prove extraordinarily challenging. Ah ha ! There was someone there. God ! Maybe we should ask Him ! He knows. Of course you gotta remember, God is under no obligation to reveal to us every detail of just how he did this thing. I mean think about it a minute, if you were the creator of the universe, do feel you should have to tell everyone you created everything there was to know about how you created the universe?
Or do you feel you should be at liberty about how & to whom you reveal what? Some how I suspect God is probably at liberty on this thing. And ya know another thing, God showed me, so understand now, I can't "prove" this, but I believe God used his intelligence to create the universe. Yea that's right, he had to know how to do it. I mean have you ever known anyone, who did anything successfully without "knowing" how to do it?
It's a no brainer man. Now if God knew how to create the universe I'd say he probably is someone that could clue you in on a few things. So let me suggest that you say " God you created the universe so could you please clue me in on the the part I'm supposed to play in all of this?"
Now, if you do this & you never hear back from God on it. Your in the clear. Because God is a fair & square guy. I know because I've met him, his character is impeccable. In fact he's absolutely incapable of any act of injustice. So, on judgment day you'll be able to say "God I ask you to show me about this thing & I never heard back from you, so it wouldn't be fair for you to punish me or even allow anything bad to happen to me, because you didn't show me what I was supposed to do.
And God would say "your right I can't hold you accountable for anything I didn't make you aware of."
Feynman let me make you aware of the fact that there is a God, you were born to be his son or daughter & thru faith in him you can have assurance of eternal life. Pray, ask him to reveal himself to you. He is a faithful God, he loves you. He will hear & honor your prayer.
Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13
If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus & believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness & with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 2:8 & 9
Many Blessing <> Johnny
Or do you feel you should be at liberty about how & to whom you reveal what? Some how I suspect God is probably at liberty on this thing. And ya know another thing, God showed me, so understand now, I can't "prove" this, but I believe God used his intelligence to create the universe. Yea that's right, he had to know how to do it. I mean have you ever known anyone, who did anything successfully without "knowing" how to do it?
It's a no brainer man. Now if God knew how to create the universe I'd say he probably is someone that could clue you in on a few things. So let me suggest that you say " God you created the universe so could you please clue me in on the the part I'm supposed to play in all of this?"
Now, if you do this & you never hear back from God on it. Your in the clear. Because God is a fair & square guy. I know because I've met him, his character is impeccable. In fact he's absolutely incapable of any act of injustice. So, on judgment day you'll be able to say "God I ask you to show me about this thing & I never heard back from you, so it wouldn't be fair for you to punish me or even allow anything bad to happen to me, because you didn't show me what I was supposed to do.
And God would say "your right I can't hold you accountable for anything I didn't make you aware of."
Feynman let me make you aware of the fact that there is a God, you were born to be his son or daughter & thru faith in him you can have assurance of eternal life. Pray, ask him to reveal himself to you. He is a faithful God, he loves you. He will hear & honor your prayer.
Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13
If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus & believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness & with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 2:8 & 9
Many Blessing <> Johnny
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moretalman
Guest
Feynman: Where do you suppose all of this gravitation comes from? Could it be the hand of God?
Some things are so small you can't see them. Other things are so big you can't see them.
Can you back up far enough to see God?
We look at the the universe, we analyze it, we discover some things about it, what's going on in it. Without ever thinking about the fact that what we are doing is watching, studying, trying to comprehend with our obviously fallible & finite mind the wonders of the universe. The wonders of God's creation.
Thru faith you can gain access to the divine mind, one incapable of error or any possibility of miscalculation. Why not make an appeal to him? Who more than him would be able to unfold to us the mysteries of the universe?
He's also capable of of reaching you with a revelation of who he is. On his terms. Would it be your place to dictate to him just how he should go about that? Don't you think such a being, one who purports to have created the universe might be able to decide for himself how to introduce himself to you?
Or do you really want him to? Because if he does. It's going to change everything. You'll have to climb down off the throne of your own life & let him take his rightful place there.
You'll have to place your trust in something you can't quite get your head around.
But it's OK. God is more trust worthy than you are. He's smarter than you. Trust me you'll never be able to create a universe. Well, maybe, after you take your place by his side in eternity, he just might clue you in on a few things & endow you with some extraordinary creative abilities, but he hasn't made me privy to all of this so I can't speak with any significant degree of certainty.
But one thing is for sure, your gonna have to go to him with an honest heart & ask him to bring himself to your attention, if you do he will be faithful to hear & honor your prayers, he loves you, he made you to be his son, he won't rest until he's done that.
But nor will he force you to submit to him. He's put that in your power. You can be your own God. Or you can let your Maker have his rightful place in your heart.
So which will it be Feynman? Who will you trust more? Yourself or.... ?
...things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
[h=3]Hebrews 11:3[/h]
[h=3]
[/h]
[h=3][FONT='courier new', monospace]Oh Yes he came he spoke to me/Yet with my ears I did not hear/Oh but into my heart his voice did speak/ [/FONT][/h]
[h=3][FONT='courier new', monospace]Into my soul he did declare/My son I call you this day to search for those things greater/[/FONT][/h]
[h=3][FONT='courier new', monospace]It's here you'll find the truth my son/It's here where all that's unknown will come[/FONT][/h]
[h=3][FONT='courier new', monospace]Make me (us) free/Let me (us) see - inside my (our) own heart(s)/Open my (our) eyes Oh Lord/ Please remove [/FONT][/h]
[FONT='courier new', monospace][h=3]the blindness from[/h][h=3]our mind/Release us please/ To live this life you've given to me (us)....[/h][/FONT]
Some things are so small you can't see them. Other things are so big you can't see them.
Can you back up far enough to see God?
We look at the the universe, we analyze it, we discover some things about it, what's going on in it. Without ever thinking about the fact that what we are doing is watching, studying, trying to comprehend with our obviously fallible & finite mind the wonders of the universe. The wonders of God's creation.
Thru faith you can gain access to the divine mind, one incapable of error or any possibility of miscalculation. Why not make an appeal to him? Who more than him would be able to unfold to us the mysteries of the universe?
He's also capable of of reaching you with a revelation of who he is. On his terms. Would it be your place to dictate to him just how he should go about that? Don't you think such a being, one who purports to have created the universe might be able to decide for himself how to introduce himself to you?
Or do you really want him to? Because if he does. It's going to change everything. You'll have to climb down off the throne of your own life & let him take his rightful place there.
You'll have to place your trust in something you can't quite get your head around.
But it's OK. God is more trust worthy than you are. He's smarter than you. Trust me you'll never be able to create a universe. Well, maybe, after you take your place by his side in eternity, he just might clue you in on a few things & endow you with some extraordinary creative abilities, but he hasn't made me privy to all of this so I can't speak with any significant degree of certainty.
But one thing is for sure, your gonna have to go to him with an honest heart & ask him to bring himself to your attention, if you do he will be faithful to hear & honor your prayers, he loves you, he made you to be his son, he won't rest until he's done that.
But nor will he force you to submit to him. He's put that in your power. You can be your own God. Or you can let your Maker have his rightful place in your heart.
So which will it be Feynman? Who will you trust more? Yourself or.... ?
...things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
[h=3]Hebrews 11:3[/h]
[h=3]
[/h]
[h=3][FONT='courier new', monospace]Oh Yes he came he spoke to me/Yet with my ears I did not hear/Oh but into my heart his voice did speak/ [/FONT][/h]
[h=3][FONT='courier new', monospace]Into my soul he did declare/My son I call you this day to search for those things greater/[/FONT][/h]
[h=3][FONT='courier new', monospace]It's here you'll find the truth my son/It's here where all that's unknown will come[/FONT][/h]
[h=3][FONT='courier new', monospace]Make me (us) free/Let me (us) see - inside my (our) own heart(s)/Open my (our) eyes Oh Lord/ Please remove [/FONT][/h]
[FONT='courier new', monospace][h=3]the blindness from[/h][h=3]our mind/Release us please/ To live this life you've given to me (us)....[/h][/FONT]