...and one was lost.
Exactly.
...and then they must abide in Him.
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...and one was lost.
Exactly.
...and then they must abide in Him.
You read the vs. Backwards to attempt to avoid the truth,lol.
Vs 3-14 is one verse in the greek.
It speaks of election unto salvation resulting in belief...lol
Not man believes first.
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Do Calvinists believe they are only half saved?
Is that what limited atonement means?
God is not offering limited anything. If you think you are limited, you probably are, but God is not.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John
Is that what limited atonement means?
God is not offering limited anything. If you think you are limited, you probably are, but God is not.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John
Everyone Limits the atonement.
Do you think Satan and fallen angels are saved?
The term is speaking of Jesus dying a Covenant death for those the Father has given to Him.
He is not willing that any perish,2 Pet.3:9...everyone of those people will be saved. Not one will be lost.
Jesus seeks and saves each one. He does not try and save them and fail.
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
So you have free will to either receive or reject Christ. But once you are saved you do not have freewill to reject him
.. Do you see the problem
.
Think of it as a tattoo ~ it’s permanent.So you have free will to either receive or reject Christ. But once you are saved you do not have freewill to reject him
Do you see the problem
So you have free will to either receive or reject Christ. But once you are saved you do not have freewill to reject him
Do you see the problem
No because if the Holy Spirit is actually in somebody's soul after receiving Christ, then it's up to Him whether He leaves or not.. not us.
We don't have the kind of power to force the Holy Spirit out of us.
If He gives eternal life, it is eternal.
The consequences for sin are rebuke, admonishing, correction from the Holy Spirit and church leaders. That is relationship.
Somebody who is saved could be kicked out of church, lose fellowship with other believers, even have their life taken by God to discontinue sin.
But not send them to hell.
God owns a person's salvation.. not that person. God gives it.. He keeps it, not us.
No because if the Holy Spirit is actually in somebody's soul after receiving Christ, then it's up to Him whether He leaves or not.. not us.
But God doesn't make people into robots does he
When you are saved does God make you a robot. With no free will.
I know Calvinists agree that man has freewill/agency before and after being saved... Yet now am seeing that the semig-pelagian camp are saying this is not true... You have no freewill after being saved (well those in the OSAS camp atleast).
I would say this creates problem in their theology
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The term limited atonement is an incorrect interpretation with an understanding that goes along with it.
I don't know about that, but I told you to get a hold of Him. You are spouting a false gospel and that is never good.
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You are simply spinning on the roundtable of TULIP now and it is not a pretty song.
I do understand though, that you cannot change your mind at this point. Even a fish needs help to pull out the hook when it is caught.
Think of it like a family biological connection. Once born into it (although this part isn't by the persons choice) ...
They then can't have that undone.
When a person is born again into God's Family by belief in Jesus as God and Saviour, they have a deeper bond than a family one..not bound by death.
If a son or daughter rejects their parents.. the parents stay if they are doing their job. Their Son or daughters status as theirs remains even if they change their name.
The parents are hurt.. grieve.. and would hopefully out of love correct their child.. but not leave.
The key thing is relationship... God is not separated from a believer.. He indwells a believer. God isn't in the sky somewhere so we can take or leave Him.. but actually in our soul thru the Holy Spirit.
Enuff said
So man makes his on freewill choice to be saved.. Yet he can't make a freewill choice to walk away from his salvation. If God indwells a believer and the believer can't reject this then, you are infact saying that God has now removed his freewill.
Seems to me that the Calvinist have it right.. Man has freewill/agency before salvation and has freewill/agency after salvation. And yet will persevere till the end.
Anyhow, I think we can leave it there. Freedom of the will or freewill is about 'being' not choice making.. Choice making as in thoughts, intention and actions are an out flowing from'being'.
The freewill doesn't change, but the being changes.
Once the being was enslaved to sin, and therefore all desires, thoughts and cations were enslaved to sin, but freely made. God doesn't force anyone to believe, but rather he renews the being (heart) so now those desires thoughts and intentions have been fred to choose the good freely... The human free will is not changed but the being (heart) is, therefore we can choose the good even faith..
Have a good evening folks
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God is not offering limited anything. If you think you are limited, you probably are, but God is not.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
John
I really do wish to discuss how we view the topics outlined in the title. It seems that most threads here that are started with intent to discuss these themes, are done so with a view to showing preference for a Calvinistic/Reformed approach which makes it difficult to express another view.
I am not Calvinist and I am not Armenian either. For the sake of understanding what either of those are about, here is a simple explanation:
Calvinism centers around the supreme sovereignty of God, predestination, the total depravity of man, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and the perseverance of saints.
Arminianism on the other hand emphasizes conditional election based on God’s foreknowledge, man’s free will to cooperate with God in salvation, Christ’s universal atonement, resistible grace, and salvation that can potentially be lost. source
Since I say I am neither, the question then is what do I believe? My best answer would be somewhere in between I guess, although I was once persuaded to be Calvinistic by the church I grew up in. I don't think either belief is salvic, that is neither depends on whether or not you are saved, but a person will definitely view things according to what they accept as doctrine. That, just might impact your entire life!
I'm not a moderator and I don't intend to moderate the comments of anyone responding. BUT that does not cover twisting of what is said or ignoring what is said. In other words, let's all adult here and be fair in our responses and accurate.
Though this may seem way out of context, it isn't. It has to do with FORE, PRE, before in belly I knew you...the difference between chosen and called. I know GOD knows the beginning from the end BUT I don't believe we are all 'actors' playing out a part in a play already a fore gone conclusion. If that means God had to make promises to Himself or whatever. I believe in free will ALONG WITH not freewill, having been justified previously. If this is way off course, then please just disregard...no problem.
First off, what do you know about Satan? and why was he in the garden of Eden in the first place? I only ask because a lot can be learned from any life that may have come 'previous' to this. So as not to blind side, I am speaking to things like
Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
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uh...I'm hoping you mean other lives and not reincarnation?
More than I want to