Pre-existence

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L

luciddream1982

Guest
#1
#1
Do you believe we existed before the flesh?

These verses would suggest maybe so...

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? ......How could the mans sin cause him to be born blind when he wasn't born yet?


This verse strongly suggest that we didnt pre-exist.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#2
Jul 2, 2011
21,236
6,530
113
#2
luciddream1982 said:
Do you believe we existed before the flesh?

These verses would suggest maybe so...

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? ......How could the mans sin cause him to be born blind when he wasn't born yet?


This verse strongly suggest that we didnt pre-exist.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Click to expand...
I believe the first two quotes are in reference to Someone far greater than you or I. The third quote does not deal with pre-existence at all, rather it deals with sin and guilt of predecessors.
However it is written God foreknew us. It is not relavent to salvation from and during this age though, all that is relavent is Jesus Christ.
 
L

luciddream1982

Guest
#3
#3
JaumeJ said:
The third quote does not deal with pre-existence at all, rather it deals with sin and guilt of predecessors.
Click to expand...
The disciples asked if the mans own sin had caused him to be born blind. How could he have sinned if he wasn't born yet?
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#4
Jul 2, 2011
21,236
6,530
113
#4
luciddream1982 said:
The disciples asked if the mans own sin had caused him to be born blind. How could he have sinned if he wasn't born yet?
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You know yourself, all men are sinners, no man is without sin, not even a newborn.
 
V

virteous_man

Guest
#5
#5
Peace be upon you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Very exciting topic now Christ our Lord said Himself Luke 20:25 KJV "Render therefore to Caesar the things which be Caesar's and to God the things which be God's." Therefore if we did excist before we were born then that would be God's. Now I have found in my reading of the KJV 4 verses that deal with predestination which are as follows:

Romans 8:29-30 KJV "For whom He did foreknow, He did also predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethen. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5 KJV "Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."

Ephesians 1:11 KJV "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will."

I have been studying for a Preacher Degree and I have been learning about all the different theogical points and arguments over the century's and decades of mankind since Christ's death, burial, ressurection, and accension. I had never gave much thought over the years about how these things have influenced my life without being aware of them.

We as people sometimes misunderstand that the great scribes, scholars, thinkers and reformers of the past had very deep convictions of why they made perticular stands on different dogma's, creed's, and doctrine's. Now some of them disagree with one another but I am reminded of 1 Timothy 3:16 KJV "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, recieved up into glory."

So the mystery of godliness has been waged and waged upon since before any of us were even born into this world. Whether we be predestined or not is not the issue the question is what will you do with Christ Jesus here and now. For we are called to holiness, perfection, and glory.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#6
Jul 2, 2011
21,236
6,530
113
#6
virteous_man said:
Peace be upon you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Very exciting topic now Christ our Lord said Himself Luke 20:25 KJV "Render therefore to Caesar the things which be Caesar's and to God the things which be God's." Therefore if we did excist before we were born then that would be God's. Now I have found in my reading of the KJV 4 verses that deal with predestination which are as follows:

Romans 8:29-30 KJV "For whom He did foreknow, He did also predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethen. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5 KJV "Having predestinated us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."

Ephesians 1:11 KJV "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will."

I have been studying for a Preacher Degree and I have been learning about all the different theogical points and arguments over the century's and decades of mankind since Christ's death, burial, ressurection, and accension. I had never gave much thought over the years about how these things have influenced my life without being aware of them.

We as people sometimes misunderstand that the great scribes, scholars, thinkers and reformers of the past had very deep convictions of why they made perticular stands on different dogma's, creed's, and doctrine's. Now some of them disagree with one another but I am reminded of 1 Timothy 3:16 KJV "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, recieved up into glory."

So the mystery of godliness has been waged and waged upon since before any of us were even born into this world. Whether we be predestined or not is not the issue the question is what will you do with Christ Jesus here and now. For we are called to holiness, perfection, and glory.
Click to expand...
In reference to Romans 8:29-30, it is very possible that in this quote the verb to forknow is a reference to our having come to the Lord, and His Holy Spirit foreknowing us previous to becoming conformed to Jesus Christ and becoming His children. Prevous to our (each's) coming to Jesus Christ, we were dead because of sin. I am not chiseling this into stone by any means, however it makes total sense to me. Thus we are foreknown indeed, however while we walk this age in the flesh, and previous to the beginning of being conformed to Jesus Christ, one day, His Day, to be actually perfect. Now that is wondrous and wonderful, and I praise and give glory to God, Jesus Christ, amen.
 
V

virteous_man

Guest
#7
#7
Hmm ok thanks JaumeJ, I will try and keep that in mind.
 
L

luciddream1982

Guest
#8
#8
JaumeJ said:
You know yourself, all men are sinners, no man is without sin, not even a newborn.
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I'm not sure that I agree we are born sinners. I think maybe we become sinners. What is sin? transgression of the law. An infant doesn't even have any concept of law.

Some people use this verse to say we are sinners even in the womb but I think its referring to Davids mother being a sinner and not so much David himself.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#9
Jul 2, 2011
21,236
6,530
113
#9
luciddream1982 said:
I'm not sure that I agree we are born sinners. I think maybe we become sinners. What is sin? transgression of the law. An infant doesn't even have any concept of law.

Some people use this verse to say we are sinners even in the womb but I think its referring to Davids mother being a sinner and not so much David himself.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Click to expand...
First we must believe that God is good. He is! He knows the difference, providing there is one. Now, all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Perhaps when we are so young we do not even realize we are here, just perhaps. I believe that all have sinned. Now anyone not conscious of sin is not guilty of sin. All of this sounds like a circle biting itself in the behind, but it is simply another mystery. The pivotal word there is simply. Mary used to keep things to herself when she did not quite get a grasp on something. I like to be as much like that as possible. She was wise.
 
L

luciddream1982

Guest
#10
#10
luciddream1982 said:
I'm not sure that I agree we are born sinners. I think maybe we become sinners. What is sin? transgression of the law. An infant doesn't even have any concept of law.

Some people use this verse to say we are sinners even in the womb but I think its referring to Davids mother being a sinner and not so much David himself.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Click to expand...
After thinking about it some more. I think we are born with a natural tendency to sin or transgress the law, but when you are to young to even understand what law is, then I dont believe those sins are imputed to you.
 
C

Crazy4GODword

Guest
#11
#11
luciddream1982 said:
After thinking about it some more. I think we are born with a natural tendency to sin or transgress the law, but when you are to young to even understand what law is, then I dont believe those sins are imputed to you.
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True, but God did puts some law in our hearts, a conscious that convicts. So we cannot say that we don't know what's good and bad. But I believe that once a person really understands like a teenager or older, then they are accountable.
 
T

TimP

Guest
#12
#12
Hello there,

Having dealt with Mormonism and their doctrines for a number of years, the issue of pre- existence is something I have looked into quiet seriously.

Absolutely nothing in the Bible even hints at us having a pre-existent life in heaven or any were else.

Every single reference to God knowing someone prior to his or her birth stems from His omniscience and knowing literally everything about us before the beginning of anything.

Certain teachers and preachers will take individual, or small groups, of Scripture and twist them to meet their particular needs.

But rest assured when you're spirit inhabits the human body it is the first time you have ever existed outside of the mind of God.

Once created, that soul will live for eternity. You will continue to exist through this earthly life then beyond that either in God's presence or in outer darkness separated from God eternally.


In Christ's love,


TimP
 
B

babyboyblue

Guest
#13
#13
luciddream1982 said:
Do you believe we existed before the flesh?

These verses would suggest maybe so...

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? ......How could the mans sin cause him to be born blind when he wasn't born yet?


This verse strongly suggest that we didnt pre-exist.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Click to expand...

None of those verses suggest a preexistence.

The first three suggests that God knows all things and he has a plan for our lives.
 
resurrection33

resurrection33

Banned
#14
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
128
0
71
#14
luciddream1982 said:
Do you believe we existed before the flesh?

These verses would suggest maybe so...

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? ......How could the mans sin cause him to be born blind when he wasn't born yet?


This verse strongly suggest that we didnt pre-exist.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Click to expand...
I don’t think we existed before we were born as flesh into this world.
 
E

EcarG

Guest
#15
#15
I don't think we exsisted before we were created lol. . He knew us the second He decided to create us, our spirit was formed before we got wrapped in flesh. At least that's what I believe
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#16
Jul 2, 2011
21,236
6,530
113
#16
In the Book, Daniel, there is mention of a certain number of the righteous to be achieved. I do not believe it is mentioned because of a lack of housing in heaven for more, I believe that number was determined before we began to be incarnate. Please let me know if and how you understand this reference..............in Jesus Chirst, Yeshua Mashiach....................
 
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