(Pre) Millennialism/Chiliaism

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Feb 21, 2012
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peaceful:

So Acts 24:15 - And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be
a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust

"a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust"

Matthew 25
The Final Judgment

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


is "figurative" also?

really?:rolleyes:Yes, Revelation does say blessed are those who have part in the first resurrection. . . when are the rest of the dead raised?


see above.

also:

Luke 9:60
New International Version (©1984)
Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

New Living Translation (©2007)
But Jesus told him, "Let the spiritually dead bury their own dead! Your duty is to go and preach about the Kingdom of God."

English Standard Version (©2001)
And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”


Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.


etc
I wasn't saying it was figurative, I was asking you. . .and I see that it isn't.

Thanx.:)
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
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All Jews knew there would be a MEssiah, but some could not accept when he was walking on earth.

No, as a premil, I do not reject Jesus' reign
But you reject that he reigns now...

The Jews expected a conquering Messiah and they didn't see that in Jesus
Kind of like how the premils expect literal battle in Revelation.

they saw someone who was humble, who suffered and who died
Kind of like how we are to be today. humble and expect to suffer for his namesake. HE didn't come into the world fighting so people rejected him. Premils have not seen an actual holy battle so they reject his reign.

not all Jews rejected him.
Yes, I figured you and others would understand the type of Jews I was referring to. You know the ones that believed were called Christians later on. The ones that did not believe are still called Jews


Jesus reigns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords at his second coming when he is coming back to rule with a rod of iron
He didn't come the first time with a rod and iron......like the Jews expected
Do you not see a pattern here?


The wrath is the judgement which is the complete end of the world.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
AHe didn't rule the first time with a rod and iron......
Do you not see a pattern here?


The wrath is the judgement which is the complete end of the world.
Yeah. He has not ruled the nations yet. thus it must be something yet to come.:p
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
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Yeah. He has not ruled the nations yet. thus it must be something yet to come.:p
I edited that comment after you got ahold of it, but I do find it interesting you only took part of what I said and applied to to something else to fit the premil idea.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sorry for the delay. . . Work and other things :)

Paradise and the new heaven and new earth: There is a great correlation between Paradise (Eden) in Genesis 2:4-4:26 and Rev. 1:7, 22:1-5. Genesis 2:24 . . placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubims, and a flaming sword to keep the way of the tree of life - end of original paradise.

Revelation 22:3 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations, And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: ---- the curse which drove man out shall no longer keep him out but shall be "no more" for ever - Paradise restored.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The desciption in Revelation 22:1-5 is of paradise, the Holy City, the New Jerusalem.

What makes this study sooo difficult is that none of this is in chronological order!

But I have found out one tremendous truth. . . .I don't believe ANYONE has the full revelation of the Apocalypse (Revelation). . . we only scratch the surface!

bbl
Amen. something tells me it will be worst than we think.. and probably will not happen exactly as we think. we won;t know till it happens.. Than as usual, we will look back and say wow. why did I not see that!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Proof history repeats i:tself

Jews. They rejected Jesus as Messiah

Premils. They reject Jesus' reign.

The ongoing circle. It goes on and on. People can change the name of those who reject Jesus, but you are STILL rejecting him.
Yeah it is interesting.

The jews thought jesus came first to reign. thus rejected Christ. Because they did not realize the suffering servant, and messiah were one person, who had two different missions.

The amills think Jesus is reigning now.. So much for the rod of iron.. And evil stopping..If this is what the OT prophesied of the reign of messiah. Maybe heaven will not be what we are told it will be also??
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I edited that comment after you got ahold of it, but I do find it interesting you only took part of what I said and applied to to something else to fit the premil idea.
No, I saw nothing in the first part to really respond to. Yes I see you changed it.

To this I will add.. Jesus will not rule with a rod of iron in heaven, we ALL will willingly follow him.. so when will he rule with a rod of iron. Where nations worship him. Judgment on evil is not ruling, it is executing judgment.
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
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Yeah it is interesting.

The jews thought jesus came first to reign. thus rejected Christ. Because they did not realize the suffering servant, and messiah were one person, who had two different missions.

The amills think Jesus is reigning now.. So much for the rod of iron.. And evil stopping..If this is what the OT prophesied of the reign of messiah. Maybe heaven will not be what we are told it will be also??
How can someone have ALL authority of they are not a king?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
How can someone have ALL authority of they are not a king?
to me, Allowing evil to happen so that all people can come to Christ until a specified time yet still being in complete control (which to be honest, has been that way since the begining of creation, nothing has changed there)

And ruling with an rod of iron where ALL NATIONS worship him are two different things..

Have you studied the difference between suffering servant, and Gods messiah as prophesied in the OT?
 
Feb 21, 2012
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All Jews knew there would be a MEssiah, but some could not accept when he was walking on earth.
I didn't say they didn't know. The OT prophecies showed two pictures of the coming Messiah - one a conquering hero, the other a suffering servant. . .It seems they just looked for the conquering hero . . .
But you reject that he reigns now...
Spiritually, yes. . .literally, no. I believe that if he was reigning NOW . . . the world would be a much better place.
Kind of like how the premils expect literal battle in Revelation.

Kind of like how we are to be today. humble and expect to suffer for his namesake. HE didn't come into the world fighting so people rejected him. Premils have not seen an actual holy battle so they reject his reign.
I do expect a literal battle between good and evil. . yes. I know that he reigns spiritually within us, and that he WILL reign literally.
Yes, I figured you and others would understand the type of Jews I was referring to. You know the ones that believed were called Christians later on. The ones that did not believe are still called Jews
Yes, the Jews, Israel as a nation, God's elect.
He didn't come the first time with a rod and iron......like the Jews expected
Do you not see a pattern here?

The wrath is the judgement which is the complete end of the world.
Nope, no pattern. . .The wrath is not just the judgment unless you think the Seal judgments, Trumpet judgments and Bowl judgments are also figurative?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I didn't say they didn't know. The OT prophecies showed two pictures of the coming Messiah - one a conquering hero, the other a suffering servant. . .It seems they just looked for the conquering hero . . .

Amen. and why did they not see? Because they thought the law saved them, thus they did not need a savior. Plus not once was the suffering servant called the messiah,. not to mention, the characteristics of both were of two completely different men (as it appeared) His own disciples did not even understand this. It was the mystery God used to his own advantage, the mystery was revealed to mankind AFTER his ressurection.

 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
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No, I saw nothing in the first part to really respond to. Yes I see you changed it.

To this I will add.. Jesus will not rule with a rod of iron in heaven, we ALL will willingly follow him.. so when will he rule with a rod of iron. Where nations worship him. Judgment on evil is not ruling, it is executing judgment.
"Ask of me, and I will give (thee) the nations for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel" (Psalms 2:8-9)

2 Corinthians 2: [SUP]3 [/SUP]For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.[SUP]4 [/SUP]The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.[SUP]5 [/SUP]We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.[SUP]6 [/SUP]And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience,...


Christians have victory over the enemy because of the cross. The war and battle we fight is not physical!

What do you think the armor of God is? An actual sword and shield?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
"Ask of me, and I will give (thee) the nations for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel" (Psalms 2:8-9)

2 Corinthians 2: [SUP]3 [/SUP]For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.[SUP]4 [/SUP]The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.[SUP]5 [/SUP]We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.[SUP]6 [/SUP]And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience,...


Christians have victory over the enemy because of the cross. The war and battle we fight is not physical!

What do you think the armor of God is? An actual sword and shield?
lol.. you missed my point. Yes I agree we are not to us military might, or fight to spread Gods gospel. Jesus proves this at his arrest (to bad the early church did not figure this out)

I am not talking about this. I am talking about what scripture says concerning the messiah. vs the suffering servant. (ps, ruling with a rod of iron does not mean God uses military either, he won't have to)
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
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lol.. you missed my point. Yes I agree we are not to us military might, or fight to spread Gods gospel. Jesus proves this at his arrest (to bad the early church did not figure this out)

I am not talking about this. I am talking about what scripture says concerning the messiah. vs the suffering servant. (ps, ruling with a rod of iron does not mean God uses military either, he won't have to)
I don't have much time here. I have to go visit some people but I will try to get through as much as I can...May have to come back later..

The Jews thought Jesus would come in to the world fighting, right? That is why many rejected him. Correct? This is how they understood prophecy. Is this correct?
 
Feb 21, 2012
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"Ask of me, and I will give (thee) the nations for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel" (Psalms 2:8-9)

2 Corinthians 2: [SUP]3 [/SUP]For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.[SUP]4 [/SUP]The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.[SUP]5 [/SUP]We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.[SUP]6 [/SUP]And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience,...


Christians have victory over the enemy because of the cross. The war and battle we fight is not physical!

What do you think the armor of God is? An actual sword and shield?
Yes, Psalm 2:8,9 is a prophecy of the coming Messiah. So also is Isaiah 53:3-5 which shows him in a whole different light. The Jews believed the prophecy of Psalm 2:8,9 but for whatever reason they disregarded the prophecy in Isaiah.

Do you know what the armor of God is for? We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. . .demonic influences. . . .oh but isn't he bound in chains?

We have won the victory. . .in the future. We still battle with sin all the time. literally, Jesus came the first time as a humble, suffering servant. He literally died and was literally raised from the dead. . and he is literally coming again to rule with a rod of iron
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I don't have much time here. I have to go visit some people but I will try to get through as much as I can...May have to come back later..

The Jews thought Jesus would come in to the world fighting, right? That is why many rejected him. Correct? This is how they understood prophecy. Is this correct?
What they saw was this.

The messiah

1. He will be human, born as a child
2. He will be a ruler (government will be on his shoulders)
3. He will be God himself (He will be called mighty God)
4. His kingdom will be eternal, it will never end.
5. He will NEVER DIE
6. He will come from Judah, and rule isreal, and his kingdom will be worldwide in scope. and his kingdom will come from the strength of God himself. it can not be defeated.
7. Those who rebelled againsed him, and survived the final battle will come and worship him. No one will look down on him, but look up to him. and serve him and him only.
8. He will be served, not be a servant.
9. We are given his name: Messiah, or as we know it Christ.


What they did not see was this.


Suffering servant (name given by many theologians)

1. He will be human.
2. He will have no kingdom, no one will look up to him, they will look down on him.
3. He is not said to be God (although he is not said not to be God)
4. He takes our punsihment for our sin.
5. He dies a horrible death
6. He will rise from the dead
7. His death will justify many.
8. He is given no name. so we do not know who he will be.


After Christ resurrection. this was revealed to the world. Many of his disciples saw it, and believed. most of the jews still did nto see it.

Because again, they did not think they needed to be saved, they thought they were already right with God as Gods chosen people and the law.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
maybe I should open another thread on this getting off topic here
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
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We have won the victory. . .in the future
His death was not victorious then and even now? Wow.


I am actually appalled. I'm done here. I refuse to discuss this any further.


EG, I may pm you later with our discussion.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
His death was not victorious then and even now? Wow.
Yes, He won the victory for us all, from adam till the last saved person as the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.


EG, I may pm you later with our discussion.
OK sis