Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[delirious]

He would not accomplish the future ones apart from His "death and resurrection" having taken place/been accomplished.

This helps clarify for me that at least you believe that the 6 things in Daniel 9: 24 cannot be accomplished apart from the cross.

So in the OT priestly duties, some [re: "atonement"] were accomplished IN THE TEMPLE (i.e. on the day of Atonement), whereas others [re: atonement] were accomplished by the priest going OUTSIDE of and far from the temple, to where the "lepers" were, and were in need of "cleansing" ('make atonement for'), and not on that one particular date alone.

You are making a category error. You are trying to say that because the priest went "OUTSIDE AND FAR FROM THE TEMPLE TO CLEANSE THE LEPERS" that this is why Jesus had to be crucified "OUTSIDE THE 70 WEEKS TIME FRAME".

That is a logical fallacy and the two have nothing to do with each other. If you want to keep believing the 70th week is in the future that is up to you. I tried my best to show you from Daniel 9: 24 that Christ already fulfilled those things in the 70th week.

There is no future week, or 7-year treaty between the antichrist and Israel and Daniel 9: 24 proves that.

 

[delirious]

What do you guys think “finish the transgression” means? What transgression?

It means this...

Matthew 23: 31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 FILL UP THEN THE MEASURE OF YOUR FATHER'S GUILT 33 Serpents, brood[n] of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth,from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

Jesus was the last prophet and obviously the Messiah. They "finished the transgression" in murdering Jesus.

 

[KJV1611]

It means this...

Matthew 23: 31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 FILL UP THEN THE MEASURE OF YOUR FATHER'S GUILT 33 Serpents, brood[n] of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth,from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

Jesus was the last prophet and obviously the Messiah. They "finished the transgression" in murdering Jesus.

That’s what I believe also.

 

[Locutus]

I fink "finish the transgression" is to doooo with the end of the law rather than Jesus' death which it heralded.

 

[delirious]

I fink "finish the transgression" is to doooo with the end of the law rather than Jesus' death which it heralded.

The problem I see with that interpretation is the same one the dispensationalist has.

By tying the "the finishing of the transgression" to A.D. 70 then you have at least one of the six things described in Dan 9: 24 being accomplished outside the time frame of the 70 weeks. Gabriel says all 6 of those things in Dan 9: 24 will be accomplished within the 70 weeks.

The problem is solved when a person realizes that Dan 9: 27 is talking about Jesus and not an Antichrist. Jesus, on the cross, accomplished all 6 of those things in the 70th week. Just like Gabriel said He would in Dan 9: 24.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You are making a category error. You are trying to say that because the priest went "OUTSIDE AND FAR FROM THE TEMPLE TO CLEANSE THE LEPERS" that this is why Jesus had to be crucified "OUTSIDE THE 70 WEEKS TIME FRAME".

That is a logical fallacy and the two have nothing to do with each other.
[…]

Nope. What I'm trying to say is that Jesus' death on the Cross was the "cut off, but not for himself" (or "and have nothing"), which thus sent Him "on a far journey, who left his house [G3614]..." [Mk13:34; Matthew 25:14; Lk19:12,15,17,19; Heb3:2,5,6; Mt13:57-58; Prov7:18-20, etc, etc]

… so I'm saying that nothing requires the "atonement" referred to in Dan9:24's "to make reconciliation for iniquity" [same word as in: https://biblehub.com/text/leviticus/26-40.htm; i.e. SINGULAR ] to be the one of the event "on the Cross," as you are assuming it to be.

There is no future week, or 7-year treaty between the antichrist and Israel and Daniel 9: 24 proves that..

I remain unconvinced.

But I see similarities (to my view) in what is said in Hosea 5:15-6:3... "return to My place UNTIL they acknowledge THEIR OFFENCE..." [singular ]

 

[Locutus]

The problem I see with that interpretation is the same one the dispensationalist has.

By tying the "the finishing of the transgression" to A.D. 70 then you have at least one of the six things described in Dan 9: 24 being accomplished outside the time frame of the 70 weeks. Gabriel says all 6 of those things in Dan 9: 24 will be accomplished within the 70 weeks.

The problem is solved when a person realizes that Dan 9: 27 is talking about Jesus and not an Antichrist. Jesus, on the cross, accomplished all 6 of those things in the 70th week. Just like Gabriel said He would in Dan 9: 24.

The problem with your position is that transgression is tied to the law:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT (to fix link): https://biblehub.com/text/leviticus/26-40.htm

 

[delirious]

Nope. What I'm trying to say is that Jesus' death on the Cross was the "cut off, but not for himself" (or "and have nothing"), which thus sent Him "on a far journey, who left his house [G3614]..." [Mk13:34; Matthew 25:14; Lk19:12,15,17,19; Heb3:2,5,6; Mt13:57-58; Prov7:18-20, etc, etc]

… so I'm saying that nothing requires the "atonement" referred to in Dan9:24's "to make reconciliation for iniquity" [same word as in:

You are still left with the same problem. You just said in your last post to me that you couldn't see the 6 things listed in Daniel 9: 24 being accomplished apart from Jesus and the cross.

You still have Jesus crucified outside the 70 week time frame. Gabriel says in Daniel 9: 24 that it will happen within. You have never provided an answer for this.

I see this as absolutely catastrophic to the dispensational interpretation that removes the 70th week into the future. Daniel 9: 24 is telling us that removing the 70th week to the future is not possible. I'm still not sure why you can't see this.

 

[delirious]

The problem with your position is that transgression is tied to the law:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I don't have transgression tied to the law. Jesus fulfilled all 6 things on the cross during the 70th week. That is why Gabriel didn't say 76 weeks (which would be roughly necessary in your view of 70 A.D.) or 42 weeks or 57 weeks or some other number.

Gabriel said 70 weeks. Jesus was crucified in the 70th week and fulfilled those 6 things as Daniel 9: 26 and 27 tell us. So I don't see what the issue is with my interpretation.

You did not answer my question I posed to you because I don't think you have an answer for it anymore than the dispensationalist does who suffers the same problem. How do you account for the "finishing of the transgression" happening outside the 70 week time frame in your view?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You are still left with the same problem. You just said in your last post to me that you couldn't see the 6 things listed in Daniel 9: 24 being accomplished apart from Jesus and the cross.

You still have Jesus crucified outside the 70 week time frame. Gabriel says in Daniel 9: 24 that it will happen within. You have never provided an answer for this.

I see this as absolutely catastrophic to the dispensational interpretation that removes the 70th week into the future. Daniel 9: 24 is telling us that removing the 70th week to the future is not possible. I'm still not sure why you can't see this.

It seems as though you are not reading WHAT it is I have written (or perhaps I'm not conveying my point clearly enough), because you are simply repeating yourself (as to my point), whereas I am trying to point out how I am NOT making the point that you seem to think I am.

"make reconciliation for iniquity" [same word as in---> https://biblehub.com/text/leviticus/26-40.htm (see context also)]

"within" is STILL IN "the 70th Week" (i.e. FUTURE, when it occurs [the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" of Rev1:1/4:1/7:3, etc...], the "ONE WEEK" time period).

 

[delirious]

It seems as though you are not reading WHAT it is I have written (or perhaps I'm not conveying my point clearly enough), because you are simply repeating yourself (as to my point), whereas I am trying to point out how I am NOT making the point that you seem to think I am.

"within" is STILL IN "the 70th Week" (i.e. FUTURE, when it occurs [the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" of Rev1:1/4:1/7:3, etc...], the "ONE WEEK" time period).

No sir. I have read what you posted and understood it. I don't think you are understanding my point and how it is fatal to the dispensational interpretation of the 70 weeks.

I know that you believe the 70th week is still future and will be inaugurated when the Antichrist signs/confirms a treaty with Israel. I know that you believe that during this 70th week is when the 6 things in Daniel 9: 24 are completed.

But you have missed my point. You have already said that Jesus' crucifixion plays a pivotal role in helping to accomplish those 6 things in Dan 9: 24. So let me try to restate my point as clearly as I can:

If Jesus' crucifixion plays ANY ROLE WHATSOEVER in bringing to pass those 6 things in Dan 9: 24 then the 70th week cannot be detached from the 69th week and must follow immediately after it. Otherwise, you have Jesus helping to fulfill the 6 things of Dan 9: 24 outside the time frame of the 70 weeks which contradicts Gabriel in Dan 9: 24.

I mean this with all due respect but I don't think you are understanding how important that last point is and how it is fatal to the dispensational interpretation of the 70 weeks prophecy.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Nope. I said He would not be able to do the FUTURE aspects apart from His having died and resurrected (not saying that His death on the Cross IS the Dan9:24 thing listed, per the usage of "make atonement for" in other ways, by the priest [OT; example Lev14 and the "cleansing of a leper" NOT "IN the temple"]).

 

[delirious]

Nope. I said He would not be able to do the FUTURE aspects apart from His having died and resurrected (not saying that His death on the Cross IS the Dan9:24 thing listed

That's exactly what I said in my last post. You believe it was PARTIALLY fulfilled by Christ on the cross. That's why I said you believe it will be COMPLETED in the 70th week. Here is the quote that shows I understood you correctly:

I know that you believe the 70th week is still future and will be inaugurated when the Antichrist signs/confirms a treaty with Israel. I know that you believe that during this 70th week is when the 6 things in Daniel 9: 24 are completed.

Your problem still remains. You believe that Christ PARTIALLY fulfilled those 6 things in Dan 9: 24 on the cross. But your system has Christ crucified OUTSIDE of the 70 weeks time frame. That means, according to your system, that when he comes back in the 70th week he COMPLETES THE OTHER PART THAT IS REMAINING.

BUT THE FIRST PART (WHEN HE WAS CRUCIFIED) HE DIDN'T DO WITHIN THE 70 WEEKS.

This contradicts Gabriel in Dan 9: 24. Gabriel says these 6 things will ALL happen WITHIN the 70 weeks. That means all of it. Not just some of it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I'm not saying the Dan9:24 wording speaks of His Cross-work. (you are)

https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/9-24.htm "make reconciliation for iniquity" [or, the iniquity]

 

[delirious]

^ I'm not saying the Dan9:24 wording speaks of His Cross-work. (you are)

I'm not talking about just "atoning for iniquity" (although I do believe Jesus did that and all 6 things on the cross). I've been talking about the 6 things that Gabriel mentions in Daniel 9: 24. You said...

He would not be able to do the FUTURE aspects apart from His having died and resurrected

So you are an agreement with me that His crucifixion plays a key role in accomplishing the 6 things of Daniel 9: 24. I believe they were all completed right there on the cross, in the 70th week, just like Gabriel said they would be.

You believe that it only "made possible" the fulfilling of the 6 things in Daniel 9: 24 to be "completed" in a future 70th week.

But you have the most critical event in all of human history, the crucifixion, OUTSIDE the 70 weeks. If you don't understand how that destroys the dispensational interpretation of the 70 weeks I don't know how to make it any clearer to you.

The only way for your interpretation, that removes the 70th week into the future, to be true is if you say Jesus' death played NO ROLE WHATSOEVER in accomplishing the 6 things of Daniel 9: 24. We obviously know that is not true.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here is yet another usage of "to make atonement for" (Exodus 30:15-16 and Numbers 31:50):


The Atonement Money

11 Then the LORD said to Moses, 12 “When you take a census of the Israelites to number them, each man must pay the LORD a ransom for his life when he is counted. Then no plague will come upon them when they are numbered. 13 Everyone who crosses over to those counted must pay a half shekel, according to the sanctuary shekel, which weighs twenty gerahs. This half shekel is an offering to the LORD.

14 Everyone twenty years of age or older who crosses over must give this offering to the LORD. 15 In making the offering to the LORD to atone for your lives, the rich shall not give more than a half shekel, nor shall the poor give less. 16 Take the atonement money from the sons of Israel and use it for the service of the Tent of Meeting. It will serve as a memorial for the Israelites before the LORD to make an atonement for your lives [/for yourselves].”

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

ALSO, "Lamb" in Revelation is a completely distinct Grk word from the word for "Lamb" used in John 1:29, and is used only ONE other place outside Revelation (which I see as very significant [to this point/discussion]).

 

[delirious]

Here is yet another usage of "to make atonement for" (Exodus 30:15-16 and Numbers 31:50):

I"m not talking about "atoning for iniquity". I've been talking about all 6 things Gabriel mentions that will be accomplished WITHIN the 70 weeks in Dan 9: 24.

Without Jesus and the cross, "the transgression can't be finished"
Without Jesus and the cross, "to make an end of sins" can't be made.
Without Jesus and the cross, "to atone for iniquity" can't be made.
Without Jesus and the cross, "everlasting righteousness" cannot be brought in
Without Jesus and the cross, "vision and prophecy" cannot be sealed up. Weren't there many OT prophecies about Jesus?
Without Jesus and the cross, "to anoint the most holy" cannot be made.

Are you saying Jesus didn't play a role in helping to accomplish any of these things? We both know he obviously did.

But the dispensational interpretation of Daniel's 70 weeks has Jesus crucified OUTSIDE the 70 weeks. Not possible according to what Gabriel says in Daniel 9: 24.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I"m not talking about "atoning for iniquity". I've been talking about all 6 things Gabriel mentions that will be accomplished WITHIN the 70 weeks in Dan 9: 24.

Without Jesus and the cross, "the transgression can't be finished"
Without Jesus and the cross, "to make an end of sins" can't be made.
Without Jesus and the cross, "to atone for iniquity" can't be made.
Without Jesus and the cross, "everlasting righteousness" cannot be brought in
Without Jesus and the cross, "vision and prophecy" cannot be sealed up. Weren't there many OT prophecies about Jesus?
Without Jesus and the cross, "to anoint the most holy" cannot be made.

Are you saying Jesus didn't play a role in helping to accomplish any of these things? We both know he obviously did.

But the dispensational interpretation of Daniel's 70 weeks has Jesus crucified OUTSIDE the 70 weeks. Not possible according to what Gabriel says in Daniel 9: 24.

I'm not sure what your beef is... Let me ask you this (I just posted this passage, below, in a different thread), when do you see the bold phrase taking place? :


Romans 11 -

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in [G1525].

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them [Israel], when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they [Israel] are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they [Israel] are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [/irrevocable].


… on the Cross? (Nisan of 32ad or thereabouts [literally on Passover at His death]), or sometime in the future?