I agree apart form the fact that the Jews are still facing great tribulation..... as they have for nineteen hundred years..
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I agree apart form the fact that the Jews are still facing great tribulation..... as they have for nineteen hundred years..
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popeye
Guest
No,you left out the bride and groom .
So many believers are oblivious to the purpose of the GT,and the 4 harvests.
Never has been a mark,flying scorpions,most of the world,humans,and marine life destroyed.
It is all future.......and obvious
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popeye
Guest
When was the mark?
When was there a slaughter of the Jews along the magnitude of Hitler and stalin?
"....such trib as the world has never seen,or ever will see"
That verse alone removes any amil traction.
BTW,the Catholics use the same material as protestant anti-pre tribs.
In Daniel Ch 2&7 he talks about a fourth (beast, iron)who are generally accepted to be the same nation. In following the sequence of nations that Israel lived under, it would seem to be Rome. The description that we get of the Antichrist in ch 7 is usually associated with this fourth nation.
We should remember the beasts of Rev. 12,13,17, are also assumed to be the same nation.
The letter to Thess. was written about 50 ad. Jerusalem and the temple would soon be destroyed, 20 years maybe. Was Paul talking about an event 1900 or more years in the future or something that Jesus said would happen in Lk 21:20-24, Mk 13:14-20?
2 Thess 2:1-12 describes the desecration of the temple in 70 Ad by the Romans before they destroyed the city.
The interesting thing for me is in v8 where antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His coming. This didn't happen to the Caesar who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 Ad. So let me offer this thought, the Antichrist who is destroyed by the appearance of Jesus is head of the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit, renewed Rome (Caesar).
The beast of Rev 17 has eight heads, the one that is destroyed by Jesus at His coming is the eighth head. Remember that Rev 17:18 says, the woman is a city, 17:9 says a city of 7 hills.
The Bible doesn't say 7 years, it talks about days, months, and 3 !/2 times.
The reason for this is so the Israelites who have read and studied the scriptures would understand the meaning. It was written so the reader would associate it with Daniel's time frame of the 3 1/2 t"s. Not literal earthly years, but a time frame to salvation and the restoration of Jerusalem.
Just a comment about the mark of the beast, it is the mark of Caesar(man-god). This was revealed to me:
Satan, Dragon, The kingdom or evil 600
Beast, Roman Empire 60
Caesar, Antichrist 6
The number of a man 666
The power of all in one man.
I really liked your last paragraph, I agree with you almost completely except I see those things as past, with us now facing Armageddon when Iran and it's allies attack Israel, soon.
We should remember the beasts of Rev. 12,13,17, are also assumed to be the same nation.
The letter to Thess. was written about 50 ad. Jerusalem and the temple would soon be destroyed, 20 years maybe. Was Paul talking about an event 1900 or more years in the future or something that Jesus said would happen in Lk 21:20-24, Mk 13:14-20?
2 Thess 2:1-12 describes the desecration of the temple in 70 Ad by the Romans before they destroyed the city.
The interesting thing for me is in v8 where antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His coming. This didn't happen to the Caesar who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 Ad. So let me offer this thought, the Antichrist who is destroyed by the appearance of Jesus is head of the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit, renewed Rome (Caesar).
The beast of Rev 17 has eight heads, the one that is destroyed by Jesus at His coming is the eighth head. Remember that Rev 17:18 says, the woman is a city, 17:9 says a city of 7 hills.
The Bible doesn't say 7 years, it talks about days, months, and 3 !/2 times.
The reason for this is so the Israelites who have read and studied the scriptures would understand the meaning. It was written so the reader would associate it with Daniel's time frame of the 3 1/2 t"s. Not literal earthly years, but a time frame to salvation and the restoration of Jerusalem.
Just a comment about the mark of the beast, it is the mark of Caesar(man-god). This was revealed to me:
Satan, Dragon, The kingdom or evil 600
Beast, Roman Empire 60
Caesar, Antichrist 6
The number of a man 666
The power of all in one man.
I really liked your last paragraph, I agree with you almost completely except I see those things as past, with us now facing Armageddon when Iran and it's allies attack Israel, soon.
Yes people don't seem to realize that the whole Pre Trib dispensationalist idea is very much a minority position within the
the Church as a whole. It seems to be a case of whoever shouts the loudest. I am not a Pre Trib. I am however reviewing the whole subject at present. I believe that there must be one correct view of the whole subject because I find it hard to believe that God would have allowed such controversy over such an important part of his revelation to us all.
today is the day of salvation.
If i am ready today, and God is my shield and strength, if i have the whole armour of God on than i have nothing to fear.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat_10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
I'm not afraid of tribulation, because God will be with me. It's like a refining fire that tests our faith, The truly faithful will endure the testing but the fake will crumble and break under the pressure.
If Gods people are all taken away, how dose that test and try the saints, how do the faithful glorify God without a being tested.
Rev_2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Jas_1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
1Pe_1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
If i am ready today, and God is my shield and strength, if i have the whole armour of God on than i have nothing to fear.
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat_10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
I'm not afraid of tribulation, because God will be with me. It's like a refining fire that tests our faith, The truly faithful will endure the testing but the fake will crumble and break under the pressure.
If Gods people are all taken away, how dose that test and try the saints, how do the faithful glorify God without a being tested.
Rev_2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Jas_1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
1Pe_1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Keep searching.The answers are there. Reason and logic are your best tools.
When I hear you say "whoever shouts the loudest" it reminds me of the locusts of Rev 9:9 "the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots," false teachers.
I did several things to help me understand.
I started fresh, not forgetting what I was taught, but trying to look at just the Bible itself.
I think trying to understand the symbolism is the hardest, but I know more now than I used to.
I searched as many old books as I could. 1800's 1900's.
I looked for books on symbolism, numbers, sun stars,etc., some was helpful.
The best thing I tried was making time charts.
Draw a line on a big piece of paper and then begin filling in events.
A good place to start would be the resurrection of Jesus. Then on separate papers write 1st seal, 2nd seal, etc., all the events we find in prophecy,bottomless pit open, b.p. closed, life time of the beast.
If you really want some joy don't stop when you reach the end of this world, continue with wedding feast, meet the Father, the Holy city coming down. Then place them on your time line.
I found that some things made more sense this way.
What I found was amazing, but getting closer to God through His word always is.
When I hear you say "whoever shouts the loudest" it reminds me of the locusts of Rev 9:9 "the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots," false teachers.
I did several things to help me understand.
I started fresh, not forgetting what I was taught, but trying to look at just the Bible itself.
I think trying to understand the symbolism is the hardest, but I know more now than I used to.
I searched as many old books as I could. 1800's 1900's.
I looked for books on symbolism, numbers, sun stars,etc., some was helpful.
The best thing I tried was making time charts.
Draw a line on a big piece of paper and then begin filling in events.
A good place to start would be the resurrection of Jesus. Then on separate papers write 1st seal, 2nd seal, etc., all the events we find in prophecy,bottomless pit open, b.p. closed, life time of the beast.
If you really want some joy don't stop when you reach the end of this world, continue with wedding feast, meet the Father, the Holy city coming down. Then place them on your time line.
I found that some things made more sense this way.
What I found was amazing, but getting closer to God through His word always is.
Hello TMS,
While it is true that Jesus said that those who believe in him would have trials and tribulation, the on-going error is not understanding the difference between common trial and tribulation, which comes at the hands of mankind with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, in opposition to God's direct wrath, which is drawing ever nearer.
In the book of Revelation Jesus told John to write what he had seen, what is now, and what will take place later. The "now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period, which we are still. Then in Rev.4:1, John sees a door opened in heaven and a voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "Come up here and I will show you what must take place after this" i.e. after the church period. The "what must take place after this" is a detailed account of the coming wrath of God which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. That period will be an unprecedented time of God's wrath that is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government (Dan.2:31-45, Rev.4 thru 18). It is this time of wrath that scripture states that Believer's are not appointed to suffer, for Jesus rescued us from it by satisfying God's wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins.
It is because of this lack of understanding between common trial and tribulation and God's coming wrath, that is the cause of this on-going controversy of when Jesus appears to gather the church. Another problem regarding this, is not understanding the magnitude and severity of the coming wrath. People actually think that the end-time events and therefore, the wrath of God, has already taken place at the destruction of the temple. As though this unprecedented wrath could passively take place in the background of history. The wrath that is coming will not be something that the world will be able to avoid. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone there will be approximately 4.4 billion fatalities (a fourth and a third, respectively), and that is not counting trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the bowl judgments. After studying the seals, trumpets and bowls, one can see why Jesus said "If those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth."
In conclusion, the trials and tribulation scriptures that you are quoting above are common to believer's, but has nothing to do with the unprecedented wrath of God which is coming.
Hello abcdef,
The 5th trumpet is not symbolism! You have a star, which is referred to as a "He" having the key to the Abyss, which is a real place under the earth and he opens it. The Abyss is the same place that those demonic beings collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not to send them into. These locusts that come out that look like horses prepared for battle, with breastplates of iron, faces that resemble human faces, hair like women's hair and teeth like lion's teeth, are demonic beings. The beast who once was, now is not and yet will come, is the angel of the Abyss and is their king. This angel/beast is the one who is going to kill the two witnesses. Exactly the way it is stated in scripture, is how it is going to happen. There is no need to apply symbolism here. That said, when John describes the sound of their wings like the sounds of chariots rushing into battle, that is exactly what their wings collectively sound like.
The 5th trumpet is not symbolism! You have a star, which is referred to as a "He" having the key to the Abyss, which is a real place under the earth and he opens it. The Abyss is the same place that those demonic beings collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not to send them into. These locusts that come out that look like horses prepared for battle, with breastplates of iron, faces that resemble human faces, hair like women's hair and teeth like lion's teeth, are demonic beings. The beast who once was, now is not and yet will come, is the angel of the Abyss and is their king. This angel/beast is the one who is going to kill the two witnesses. Exactly the way it is stated in scripture, is how it is going to happen. There is no need to apply symbolism here. That said, when John describes the sound of their wings like the sounds of chariots rushing into battle, that is exactly what their wings collectively sound like.
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popeye
Guest
.....and always keeping in MIND to reject the pretrib verses,and the business in heaven taught by Jesus.
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popeye
Guest
Ask him for a site with a parallel"teaching"
Oh,wait,we know his view is specific to his own mind,he already said so.
How insulting to think another humanoid could "figure out" his private "interpretation".
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popeye
Guest
"....God will be with me"
Uh,no,it says "power is given to the AC to overcome the saints"
Ps 91 is no longer in effect for gentile believers.
The AC IS EMPOWERED to behead all refusing the mark.
It is so powerful. The acts of God concerning his prophetic word.
All die. Every man woman and child,ALL,THAT MEANS A.L.L. refusing the mark.
They are the innumerable number before the throne,in heaven,with washed dirty robes.
They missed the rapture mat 25;1-?
The Symbolism is for all to understand.
The star is "he", isn't that symbolism? Does a literal pit open on earth somewhere and release these bugs? Do they only attack people without the seal? They don't eat grass or trees, what keeps them alive? This angel/beast, what does he look like,does he remain in the spirit, is he a spirit in physical form or a literal animal or person?
Don't we usually associate this beast as a nation, Dan ch 2&7, Rev ch 12,13,17?
Isn't this Satan?
The opening of the pit releases smoke that darkens the sun and air. The understanding of God's word is diminished.
The locusts have the spirit of evil (Satan). Their purpose is to keep souls from finding salvation. Isa 9:15
The description of them tells about their abilities to fight the gospel.
Shaped like horses- Are they as big as horses or just literally shaped like them? - Means they are powerful enemies like a foot soldier against a horseman. We Carry a spiritual sword, shield, helmet, right?
Literal crowns of gold or showing spiritual authority? If they are literal i'm going to want to catch alot of them.
Faces of men, or men?
Long hair, literal or showing attachment to the spiritual world?
Real teeth like a lion or like the forth beast has, Dan 7?
Breastplates of iron, or hard hearted,able to resist the gospel sword?
Sound of chariots to battle, literal or are there so many false teachers that it's hard to find the gospel truth?
Their power to hurt was in their tails, Isa 9:15, The prophet that teaches lies he is the tail.
The number 5 shows division (ten virgins divided). The 5 months is the time that the flood separated Noah from his old world. The number 5 in relation to the first four shows that it is the beginning of separate events.
V 6, you are a Christian, didn't you die to the world and become alive to Jesus through His blood? but there are people who want to die to the world and be alive to God but can't find it.
I praise God for people like you who love His word, Let us stand together in His love
The star is "he", isn't that symbolism? Does a literal pit open on earth somewhere and release these bugs? Do they only attack people without the seal? They don't eat grass or trees, what keeps them alive? This angel/beast, what does he look like,does he remain in the spirit, is he a spirit in physical form or a literal animal or person?
Don't we usually associate this beast as a nation, Dan ch 2&7, Rev ch 12,13,17?
Isn't this Satan?
The opening of the pit releases smoke that darkens the sun and air. The understanding of God's word is diminished.
The locusts have the spirit of evil (Satan). Their purpose is to keep souls from finding salvation. Isa 9:15
The description of them tells about their abilities to fight the gospel.
Shaped like horses- Are they as big as horses or just literally shaped like them? - Means they are powerful enemies like a foot soldier against a horseman. We Carry a spiritual sword, shield, helmet, right?
Literal crowns of gold or showing spiritual authority? If they are literal i'm going to want to catch alot of them.
Faces of men, or men?
Long hair, literal or showing attachment to the spiritual world?
Real teeth like a lion or like the forth beast has, Dan 7?
Breastplates of iron, or hard hearted,able to resist the gospel sword?
Sound of chariots to battle, literal or are there so many false teachers that it's hard to find the gospel truth?
Their power to hurt was in their tails, Isa 9:15, The prophet that teaches lies he is the tail.
The number 5 shows division (ten virgins divided). The 5 months is the time that the flood separated Noah from his old world. The number 5 in relation to the first four shows that it is the beginning of separate events.
V 6, you are a Christian, didn't you die to the world and become alive to Jesus through His blood? but there are people who want to die to the world and be alive to God but can't find it.
I praise God for people like you who love His word, Let us stand together in His love
Humanoid? Sounds like something out of Startrek. One thing I reject is John Derby and Cyrus Schofields private interpretations which much of the current eschatology is based on.
Humanoid? Sounds like something out of Startrek. One thing I reject is Cyrus Schofields private interpretation which much of the current eschatology is based on.
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popeye
Guest
The bible.
If they did agree with the bible,then that is ok with me.
Aren't those guys dead?
Hello again abcdef,
How about this for the answer, the angel opens the shaft to the Abyss and smoke comes out obstructing the atmosphere and therefore the sun, just as is stated in the verse. No need for symbolism.
The purpose of these demonic beings is stated right in the scripture: "They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months." That is their purpose. Keep in mind, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the wrath of God. This 5th trumpet happens to be torment only, as the scripture states that the inhabitants will not be able to kill themselves in order to escape it.
The scripture does not say that they are "shaped like horses." What it does say is "They looked like horses prepared for battle" the emphasis being on how a horse would be arrayed prepared for battle and not that they are shaped like horses.
Again, John does not say that they are crowns of gold, but something like crowns of gold. The fact is that, there is just not enough information in the context to determine what those things on their heads actually are. As a Christian, you would be here to see them, for if you happen to be on earth when they are released, then you would be one of those whom they would be stinging. For scripture states that, the only ones who are protected from this torment are those who are sealed and that would only be the 144,000 out of Israel. Everyone else will be fair game.
Just as the scripture states, their faces will resemble human faces.
They will literally have hair like women's hair according to the scripture. There is no need to attach symbolism to these characteristics. Just read it at face value and you will understand it.
Just as the scripture states, they will have teeth like lions teeth. Again, no need to symbolize.
They will have breastplates like breastplates of iron.
The sound of chariots rushing into battle is the literal sound that their wings will make collectively when flying. Again, there is no reason to attach a symbolic meaning to these characteristics.
The rest of the context explains that they have tails and stings like that of a scorpion when it strikes a person. These stings like scorpions is how they are going to torment the inhabitants of the earth during that 5 months.
abcdef, all that you are doing is misapplying scriptures that have nothing to do with each other. My advice to you, is to stop looking for the answers somewhere else and pay attention to the immediate scriptures themselves. Most of the symbolism in Revelation is revealed right in the same book. Not everything in Revelation needs to be interpreted from the OT, because the meaning is right there.
Regarding these things resembling Locusts, the rest of the context that describes these things reveal that they are literal demonic beings and are not symbolic for something else.
* They come out of the Abyss, which is the same place that those demons collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not to send them into and is the same place that Satan is going to be thrown into when the Lord returns to the earth to end the and therefore, it is the literal Abyss that these demonic beings come out of.
* They are intelligent, as they are "told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. Also, they were not allowed to kill the inhabitants of the earth but only to torture them for five months" Intelligence!
* They have a king over them, which is that angel of the Abyss, who is that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come out of the Abyss.
When the Abyss is opened here at the 5th trumpet, it remains open from that time onward. It is locked back up again after Jesus returns to end the age and Satan is thrown into it during the thousand year reign of Christ. (Rev.9:1-2, 20:1-3)
"
How about this for the answer, the angel opens the shaft to the Abyss and smoke comes out obstructing the atmosphere and therefore the sun, just as is stated in the verse. No need for symbolism.
The purpose of these demonic beings is stated right in the scripture: "They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months." That is their purpose. Keep in mind, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the wrath of God. This 5th trumpet happens to be torment only, as the scripture states that the inhabitants will not be able to kill themselves in order to escape it.
The scripture does not say that they are "shaped like horses." What it does say is "They looked like horses prepared for battle" the emphasis being on how a horse would be arrayed prepared for battle and not that they are shaped like horses.
Again, John does not say that they are crowns of gold, but something like crowns of gold. The fact is that, there is just not enough information in the context to determine what those things on their heads actually are. As a Christian, you would be here to see them, for if you happen to be on earth when they are released, then you would be one of those whom they would be stinging. For scripture states that, the only ones who are protected from this torment are those who are sealed and that would only be the 144,000 out of Israel. Everyone else will be fair game.
Just as the scripture states, their faces will resemble human faces.
They will literally have hair like women's hair according to the scripture. There is no need to attach symbolism to these characteristics. Just read it at face value and you will understand it.
Just as the scripture states, they will have teeth like lions teeth. Again, no need to symbolize.
They will have breastplates like breastplates of iron.
The sound of chariots rushing into battle is the literal sound that their wings will make collectively when flying. Again, there is no reason to attach a symbolic meaning to these characteristics.
The rest of the context explains that they have tails and stings like that of a scorpion when it strikes a person. These stings like scorpions is how they are going to torment the inhabitants of the earth during that 5 months.
abcdef, all that you are doing is misapplying scriptures that have nothing to do with each other. My advice to you, is to stop looking for the answers somewhere else and pay attention to the immediate scriptures themselves. Most of the symbolism in Revelation is revealed right in the same book. Not everything in Revelation needs to be interpreted from the OT, because the meaning is right there.
Regarding these things resembling Locusts, the rest of the context that describes these things reveal that they are literal demonic beings and are not symbolic for something else.
* They come out of the Abyss, which is the same place that those demons collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not to send them into and is the same place that Satan is going to be thrown into when the Lord returns to the earth to end the and therefore, it is the literal Abyss that these demonic beings come out of.
* They are intelligent, as they are "told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. Also, they were not allowed to kill the inhabitants of the earth but only to torture them for five months" Intelligence!
* They have a king over them, which is that angel of the Abyss, who is that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come out of the Abyss.
When the Abyss is opened here at the 5th trumpet, it remains open from that time onward. It is locked back up again after Jesus returns to end the age and Satan is thrown into it during the thousand year reign of Christ. (Rev.9:1-2, 20:1-3)
"
Physically yes but they invented dispensationalism and promoted the Pre Trib view point. Schofields dubious Bible with his notes is the backbone of that theology and since his death in 1922 has been revised four times. The most notable version
was published in 1967. Although Schofield is long dead he is still listed as a member of the OUP editorial board.
published by the Oxford University Press is. Schofields Bible is basically the KJV but he revised it in hundreds of places to make it fit with his theology and notes he added to it. I'm suprised you havn't heard of these two gentlemen.