Predestination, Hell and Heaven.

[Blackson]

Just today (21st June 2011), my niece asked me if Ephesians 1:5,11 and Romans 8:28-29 mean that some people are predestined for hell and others for everlasting life in heaven. Actually I do not think these verses or others do make any reference that some men are predestined for Heaven and others for hell, but that we are predestined to Christlike. What do you say?

 

[AnandaHya]

there is a lot of discussion about that. calvanist and Arminians (i think that is how it spelled) talk about predestination and free will debate.

Calvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Calvinism vs. Arminianism: A Discussion of Doctrine

"I. WHAT IS CALVINISM?

Historically, the doctrine we call Calvinism arose out of the teaching of the reformer John Calvin, although five point Calvinism as it is espoused by its followers today was not taught by Calvin, but instead implied by those who carried his teachings to what they considered to be their logical conclusions. Calvinism is often called Reformed theology, as distinct from Lutheran or Anabaptist theology, and is founded upon John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion. The Puritans and independent Presbyterians of Great Britain were heavily influenced by Calvin's writings, but some of its greatest followers were Dutch (Bavinck, Kuyper, etc.). Calvinism is the basis for the doctrine of many Baptist, Presbyterian, and Reformed churches. In The Canons of the Synod of Dort in 1619, a response to the teachings of James Arminius, the five points of Calvinism were stated as follows:
1. Total Depravity, the belief that man is dead in trespasses and sins and totally unable to save himself. Many adherents of Calvinism carry this a step further, claiming that man cannot even desire a relationship with God apart from His working in their hearts. In fact, it is claimed that God must regenerate a person before they can even desire to come to Christ.

2. Unconditional election is the belief that in eternity past God chose or elected certain people to obtain salvation. Some Calvinists (although not all) carry this belief further and teach what is referred to as "double election", or "reprobation", the teaching that God, in eternity past, selected some people to go to heaven and others to go to hell, and there is nothing anyone can do to change God's election; i.e., if you are elected for heaven, you'll go to heaven regardless of what you do, and if you're elected for hell, there is no possibility of your ever being saved. John Calvin taught this, but called it a terrible doctrine.

3. Limited atonement is the Calvinist teaching that Jesus did not die for the sins of the entire world, but that He instead only died for those that He elected to go to heaven. The argument is that Christ's work on the Cross must be "efficacious", that is, it must work for all for whom He died, that He could not have shed His blood for those who are lost. Some Calvinists have gone to great lengths to explain away limited atonement, saying, for example, that Jesus died for all, but does not pray for all, or that His death theoretically could save everyone, but is effective only for the elect. The end result is the same in each case - the belief that Jesus only died effectively for some people, not all.

4. Irresistible grace is the doctrine that teaches that God will draw to Himself those whom He elected regardless of their rebellion against Him. It is the belief that man cannot resist the drawing of God to Himself.

5. Perseverance of the saints, or eternal security, is the doctrine that often attracts people to Calvinism because it is the belief that a true born again Christian cannot lose or give up his salvation because salvation is entirely God's work, not man's.

II. WHAT IS ARMINIANISM?

Jacobus (James) Arminius was a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609. Arminius taught that man is not guilty for Adam's sin, but only when he chooses to sin voluntarily. Arminius started out as a strict Calvinist, but later modified his views, views which were expressed in a document called The Remonstrance in 1610. Arminianism is the theological basis for the Methodist, Wesleyan, Nazarene, Pentecostal, Free Will Baptist, Holiness, and many charismatic churches. Arminianism teaches:
1. Election based on knowledge, the belief that God chose those who would be saved in eternity past based on His foreknowledge of those who would respond to and receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Arminianism rejects the concept that God elected anyone for hell.

2. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died on the Cross for all people, that His blood is sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of every man, woman, and child who has ever lived. Thus, all mankind is savable.

3. Natural inability is the teaching that man cannot save Himself, but that the Holy Spirit must effect the new birth in him. Strict Arminians do not believe that man is totally depraved and condemned as a result of Adam's sin.

4. Prevenient grace is the Arminian belief that the prepatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the Gospel and to cooperate with God in the working out of that person's salvation.

5. Conditional perseverance is the belief that man can choose to reject God, and therefore lose his salvation, even after he has been born again. Rather than the "once saved always saved" doctrine of the Calvinists, the Arminian believes that you must abide in Christ to be saved, and that you can choose to walk away from God. Arminius himself, and his early followers, stated that they were unsure of this doctrine and that it required further Biblical study. Later Arminians, however, accepted it."

 

[wwjd_kilden]

if we are predestined, then why Jesus?.... if those who are saved are saved, and those who are not are predestined not to from the start, there would be no need for the sacrifice

 

[REDMama]

What does Jesus say? Does the good Lord send anyone to hell, NO, his desire is to seek and save that which is lost, and bring a life back into the kingdom. Only human strength, wisdom, love, which is wavering, and imperfect will condemn, fail, and make a mistake by making a decision of sending someone to hell.

 

[Crypto]

Just today (21st June 2011), my niece asked me if Ephesians 1:5,11 and Romans 8:28-29 mean that some people are predestined for hell and others for everlasting life in heaven. Actually I do not think these verses or others do make any reference that some men are predestined for Heaven and others for hell, but that we are predestined to Christlike. What do you say?

You'd be correct, Calvinists take those out of context.

 

[Lucy68]

if we are predestined, then why Jesus?.... if those who are saved are saved, and those who are not are predestined not to from the start, there would be no need for the sacrifice

Good point. I think the above scriptures indicate not predestination but God's foreknowledge.

My husband's family debated this to death and I think it really hurt his growing faith. The devil is very wise on how to snuff out a flame. Thank goodness, he seems to have healed from that experience.

 

[dmdave17]

Three times in the Book of Ezekiel, God says that He takes no pleasure in anyone's death; that He would prefer that everyone repent and be saved. Two examples follow.
"'Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?' declares the Sovereign Lord. 'Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?'" (Ezekiel 18:23)
"'For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone', declares the Sovereign Lord. 'Repent and live!'" (Ezekiel 18:32)

I believe that this is pretty strong evidence to support the case that no one is predestined for hell. God wants everyone to come into a right relationship with Him and spend eternity in His presence. Unfortunately, He knows that, due to our sinful human nature, it is not going to be that way.

 

[DiscipleWilliam]

Greetings,

As someone who upholds the validity of predestination and election, please allow me to clarify some of the frequent misnomers that have been spoken of while simultaneously answering your question about predestination my brother.

1) God is sovereign (Ex. 15:18; 1 Chron. 25:11; Psa. 22:28) meaning there isn't anything that He cannot do or accomplish.
2) He exercises the sovereignty in actively ordaining everything (Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6-8; Job 9:12; Job 12:6-10; Psa. 33:11; Psa. 115:3) meaning, by His providence all things that He ordains must come to pass.
3) God only purposed to redeem a certain number of people (1 Chron. 17:20-21; Matt. 22:14; 1 Peter 2:8-9) and
4) Christ only gave His life for the elect (Isa. 53:10; Matt. 1:21; John 6:35-40; John 10:3-4,11,14-15). Jesus Christ didn't even pray for the world, He only prayed for the elect (John 17:9).

When God predestines some unto salvation it is the attribute of grace manifested from Him unto the undeserving. We as created men and woman do not have the right to ask 'why' (Job 33:12-13; Isa. 29:16; Isa. 45:9-10; Matt. 20:1-16; Romans 9:19-24). God's motivation in election is His own good pleasure (Eph. 1:5; 2 Tim. 1:9). God does not force people to go to hell or condemn them before they are born, He just allows some to freely proceed in their own sin until they perish from this life, then He rightfully judges them. God has a general love for all created things in that they all are appointed, at least some good, by His longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (Romans 9:22) but He doesn't wish every good to them all. So therefore, He doesn't wish salvation (eternal life) to all, so it's said that He reprobates some. Reprobation is not a positive action. Reprobation is the cause of what is in the present namely, sin; but it is the cause of the lack of grace shown by God (which He is under no obligation to show). Furthermore, Reprobation (lack of grace) is the cause of what's assigned in the future, namely, eternal punishment, but the punishment is just because it is a punishment for the sin of an individual.

Let me further clarify this idea of the "predestination of God, sends some to hell." In Scripture when it says that God predestines some, it's to an ultimate end. E.g.,The saved are predestined unto eternal life, while the unsaved are predestined unto damnation, the human race is predestined to inhabit the Earth a finite period of time, birds are predestined to fly above the ground, the Universe was predestined to have 10 dimensions (with 4 being immediately recognized by mankind). See, the predestination of God is general in the sense that it doesn't override our ability to choose. Forgive me if this is getting complicated, but, God is a complex Creator. Within this general predestination there is a specific predestination. God's specific predestination, once again, will not override man's ability to choose but it is evidenced in the grace being manifested to some, and not others. Predestination is a Biblical doctrine and it's nothing that we should run and hide from. It is something that we should praise our Creator for, because, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6-8).






Misc. Notes:

Contrary to popular belief, John Calvin did not spawn the doctrine of 'Calvinism'. John Calvin just spotlighted the magnitude and importance that predestination and election has upon, humanity (generally), and salvation (specifically). Martin Luther actually addressed this very issue and spoke on it more frequently then did Calvin, as did Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Peter and Jesus Christ. The 'doctrine' of predestination and election was a normal belief among early Christians up until the 16th century when Jacob Arminius lied in order to be able to teach this doctrine in college, which later was condemned as heresy by the Synod of Dordrecht (Dort) in 1618-1619.

The Arminianist theology is considered a heresy (although not as bad as Pelagianism) because it puts man as making the first move in salvation (first Cause), then God subsequently reacting to mans actions in order to bring salvation unto the respective believer. Men work for their salvation by coming, of their own accord, to Christ, on their own strength, and they “decide” to follow Jesus. Grace is good, and grace is helpful, but it is man that actually makes the difference. Furthermore, it states that God had to use His foreknowledge to see who would believe, they respond to man (whom would believe). It also confines God to a linear time dimention indirectly denying the reality that God sees every point in time equally and not just on a linear plane. Arminianists also lack in providing adequate Scriptural references to back up their doctrine.

 

[Colt721]

I am not as learned a scholar as some who are posting here. but in my humble opinion it comes down to "free will" (again this is my opinion).
I believe that God wants us to freely choose to obey and follow him. Else why put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden with Adam and Eve?
As a parent I know that it pleases me when my children choose to obey me rather than when I have to "make" them do what I want/need them to do.
if God is our perfect heavenly father then how much more is it the same way with him?
Of course the Fact is that God, as I understand it, is omniscient. ("I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.") he transcends time and knows what will happen in all times. (thus the ability to give people the gift of prophecy.)
So he knows already what choice/s we will make he has seen it. but because he has given us the option to choose he cannot correct it.

By the way when I say he cannot correct it, what I mean is that while he is the creator of the heaven and the earth and all that exists he cannot go against his own rules.
It seems to me to be very dangerous to make blanket type statements. IE: there isn't anything that He cannot do or accomplish. A simple (ridiculous) question shows that to be a difficult position to maintain. "So then can God make a rock that he can't move? if you say no then obviously he cannot "accomplish" anything, he cannot make a rock he cannot move, then again if you say yes, then he cannot accomplish "anything" because there is a force in the universe greater than he is. (The hypothetical rock).
God will not go against his nature, his rules. Therefore since one of his rules seems to be to let people choose for themselves whether they will serve him or not(Joshua 24:15) he will not interfere in that. But because he has the ability to know the choice we will make, he can "call" those who will choose him.
Which, by the way, also means that since he is the one actively seeking us, it is by his mercy through his grace that we are saved so that Paul was able to say "we might not boast".

 

[jimmydiggs]

As far as Predestination, I believe God Macro-Manages, but does not Micro-Manage.

Predestination vs. Free Will - Is It One or the Other? <--- sort of a summary of how I feel about it


Also, it would seem to me that we all believe in Free Will, atleast to a limited degree. As we are all argueing, attempting to persuade the other, as if they have a choice in the matter.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

Three times in the Book of Ezekiel, God says that He takes no pleasure in anyone's death; that He would prefer that everyone repent and be saved. Two examples follow.
"'Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?' declares the Sovereign Lord. 'Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?'" (Ezekiel 18:23)
"'For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone', declares the Sovereign Lord. 'Repent and live!'" (Ezekiel 18:32)

I believe that this is pretty strong evidence to support the case that no one is predestined for hell. God wants everyone to come into a right relationship with Him and spend eternity in His presence. Unfortunately, He knows that, due to our sinful human nature, it is not going to be that way.

I had to reread Ezekiel 18 in several translations and several times looking for "repentance" and "salvation" and all I could see was the plain words "death" and "live". Which translation are you using? (Not saying anything wrong with your translation of scriptures...just I don't have that one.)

This verse below from the NT speaks of death and life in the same sentence also.

1Co 15:22 For as inAdam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

Now regarding "sin" which includes death and life:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one mansin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon ALL men, for that ALL have sinned:

And now Knowledge of salvation? Propitiation? Repentance? Remission? Redemption?

Knowledge = Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I amthe way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith OF (not "in") Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon ALL them that believe: for there is no difference: Rom 3:23For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Heb 11:1 Nowfaith isthe substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 14:23 ....for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins (not dead in the grave), hath quickened us (made alive) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any mansin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Propitiation = To gain favor of God (grace)

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Repentance = To turn and see it God's way.

Luk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Remission = The forgiveness of sins (by Jesus)

Luk 3:6 And ALL flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Act 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Act 28:28 `Be it known, therefore, to you, that to the nations was sent thesalvation of God, these also will hear it;'

Rom 1:16 for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, the pleasure indeed of my heart, and my supplication that is to God for Israel, is--for salvation;

Unfortunately, He knows that, due to our sinful human nature, it is not going to be that way.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

1Co 15:22 For as inAdam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.


God never said (at least not before before the KJV ) that He would eternally torment His creation. With this truth of love (Jesus is the way, truth and life - He died so ALL will be saved by God's omnipotent power and grace and love) it is so much easier to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ to others (and tell them that many are already predestined to eternal torment). I no longer have the shame of telling others that an eternal torment is what the finite and short life of the blind and ignorant and rebellious receive eternal torment (all beit may deserve but God is just and who are we to determine God's justice and God's punishments for however He chooses and however amount of time (eons - of an age or eons of eons - an age of ages- that He chooses?) God is love for all and restoration and reconcilliation is for all (that is before the KJV ).

God is all love and there is no hate in Him other than hate for evil/sin and death. He has predestined ALL to His love and kindness and grace. The word says " Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW (literally "drag") ALL men unto me.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire ( <- lake of fire cannot be both hell and lake of fire). This is the second death (<- first death was in Adam All die and in Christ ALL live).

Let us ALL be like God and have love for ALL. How we treat others reflects on how we view our Heavenly Father. If we think He is hateful and selective as to who gets the "axe" and thrown into "hell" forever, then we will also be judgmental. If we think He is all loving and not selective as to who gets into eternal life with Him, then we will also be loving to all (and even have love for the most vile and evil persons who have ever lived.)

1Jn 4:17 In this is love perfected with us, that we may have boldness in the day of judging, seeing that, according as He is, so are we also in this world."