Predestination is misunderstood...

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PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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It's OK. Most here understand Typonese.
I never use intuitive texting. I invited one of my bros over to my home one day for some golf on my nine hole chip and putt course. I thought I had typed, "Do you want to come over for a golf game?" only later did I realise intuitive text had interpreted my misstrokes as "Do you want to come over for a hold hand".
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,063
6,874
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I never use intuitive texting. I invited one of my bros over to my home one day for some golf on my nine hole chip and putt course. I thought I had typed, "Do you want to come over for a golf game?" only later did I realise intuitive text had interpreted my misstrokes as "Do you want to come over for a hold hand".
We probably wouldn't have gotten that one.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,115
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But the scripture does not say "what you claim it says, "If Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever."

It is quite possible that I have breached my principles at some point and noy done what I have advocated to others. I am imperfect. I asked for an example of that so that I could repent if necessary. You provided an example where I did not do what you alleged. So, I don't need to repent in that case. What was yur second alleged case?
I know you refuse to acknowledge what Scripture says. You should also stop deliberately misrepresenting what I say. You
are being very dishonest, Paul. I have already given this Scripture. You refuse it. What's the point of even talking to you?


And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”

So much for irony. There are other examples, too, Paul, of where you do this, meaning, go beyond
what Scripture explicitly says. But what would be the point of showing them to you if you are just
going to dig in your heels and refuse to admit you do the very thing you dislike others doing?


And I am pretty sure I have given two examples already. You have a whole thread full of other examples. Go read it.
 
Apr 27, 2023
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Are you suggesting they were blind before that?
[Genesis 3:7 KJV] 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,115
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[Genesis 3:7 KJV] 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
So they groped around in the dark and found the tree they weren't to eat from?
How would they know which one it was if they had never seen it before?
 
Apr 27, 2023
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So they groped around in the dark and found the tree they weren't to eat from?
I think they had plenty of help finding it and eating it. It is possible the eyes were only partly sealed shut. They were nude and unashamed; very naive.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,115
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I think they had plenty of help finding it and eating it. It is possible the eyes were only partly sealed shut. They were nude and unashamed; very naive.
How is it naive? What did they have to be ashamed of before they disobeyed God?

PS~ I do not think they were physically blind at all. Why weren't the animals also?
 
Apr 27, 2023
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So they groped around in the dark and found the tree they weren't to eat from?
How would they know which one it was if they had never seen it before?
Texture, and pears would open the eyes, but a grape would do nothing.
 
Apr 27, 2023
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How is it naive? What did they have to be ashamed of before they disobeyed God?

PS~ I do not think they were physically blind at all. Why weren't the animals also?
More like embarrassed perhaps. It is naive to be nude, and I prefer thinking when clothed.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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PaulThomson said:
But the scripture does not say "what you claim it says, "If Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever."

It is quite possible that I have breached my principles at some point and noy done what I have advocated to others. I am imperfect. I asked for an example of that so that I could repent if necessary. You provided an example where I did not do what you alleged. So, I don't need to repent in that case. What was yur second alleged case?

Magenta said:
I know you refuse to acknowledge what Scripture says. You should also stop deliberately misrepresenting what I say. You
are being very dishonest, Paul. I have already given this Scripture. You refuse it. What's the point of even talking to you?


And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”

So much for irony. There are other examples, too, Paul, of where you do this, meaning, go beyond
what Scripture explicitly says. But what would be the point of showing them to you if you are just
going to dig in your heels and refuse to admit you do the very thing you dislike others doing?


And I am pretty sure I have given two examples already. You have a whole thread full of other examples. Go read it.

The first verb of the verse is without waw, and is qal complete, meaning the man had completed the change, so "he has become like us knowing good and evil."
The next three verbs form a sequential chain beginning with a qal incomplete "he will be putting forth his hand" followed by two weqatal complete forms which in this Hebrew grammatical structure are connected to a leading qal incomplete, and should be understood as the opposite of their apparent forms: understood as incomplete actions even though written in completed action forms. So, "lest he keep taking from the tree of life and keep eating and keep on living for an age ('oLaM)."

So, the Hebrew readily supports my interpretation that intermittent eating would confer continuance of life after the fall, which is why God cut off access to it. And if intermittent eating from the tree of life would confer extended life after the fall, there is no reason to assume, let alone adamantly insist, that Adam and Eve had not been already eating from it before the fall.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
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PaulThomson said:
But the scripture does not say "what you claim it says, "If Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever."

It is quite possible that I have breached my principles at some point and noy done what I have advocated to others. I am imperfect. I asked for an example of that so that I could repent if necessary. You provided an example where I did not do what you alleged. So, I don't need to repent in that case. What was yur second alleged case?

Magenta said:
I know you refuse to acknowledge what Scripture says. You should also stop deliberately misrepresenting what I say. You
are being very dishonest, Paul. I have already given this Scripture. You refuse it. What's the point of even talking to you?


And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”

So much for irony. There are other examples, too, Paul, of where you do this, meaning, go beyond
what Scripture explicitly says. But what would be the point of showing them to you if you are just
going to dig in your heels and refuse to admit you do the very thing you dislike others doing?


And I am pretty sure I have given two examples already. You have a whole thread full of other examples. Go read it.

The first verb of the verse is without waw, and is qal complete, meaning the man had completed the change, so "he has become like us knowing good and evil."
The next three verbs form a sequential chain beginning with a qal incomplete "he will be putting forth his hand" followed by two weqatal complete forms which in this Hebrew grammatical structure are connected to a leading qal incomplete, and should be understood as the opposite of their apparent forms: understood as incomplete actions even though written in completed action forms. So, "lest he keep taking from the tree of life and keep eating and keep on living for an age ('oLaM)."

So, the Hebrew readily supports my interpretation that intermittent eating would confer continuance of life after the fall, which is why God cut off access to it. And if intermittent eating from the tree of life would confer extended life after the fall, there is no reason to assume, let alone adamantly insist, that Adam and Eve had not been already eating from it before the fall.
Do we have to keep eating from Christ to keep on living for eternity?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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The promise is for all.

Scripture says the promise is for the far of and your children.

Everybody is born in a fallen state so there all under the promise.

The Israelites are no different to the gentiles. There born in a fallen state and all are spiritualy blind.

The remnants likely refers to only a small amount of people will amend there life by surrendering to the will of the father.

It's not complicated.

Why is it that you always make comments, but never reference any scriptures to prove your comments?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
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Oh we do?

Why did Jesus tell us not to work for food which perishes but food which endures forever?

How many times do we need to get saved?
Food which perishes is physical food, that goes mouldy, like the manna and the loaves and fishes, which is the kind of food the crowds were mainly after. The word if God is food that does not corrupt and rot.

Jesus said in John 6:47-51 "Truly, truly I am saying to you He that is believing (present continuous) on Me is having (present continuous) aeonous life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate (aorist) manna in the wilderness and are dead. This is the bread which is coming (present continuous) down from heaven, so that (hina) a man may start to eat (aorist subjunctive) and not start dying (aorist subjunctive). I am the living bread which came (aorist) down from heaven. If any man start to eat (aorist subjunctive) from this bread, he will live (future() into the age, and the bread which I will give (future) is my flesh for the life of the world... 54 Whoso is eating (present continuous) my flesh and is drinking (present continuous) my blood is having (present continuous) aeonous life, and I will raise (future) him up on the last day.

We can see here that Jesus interprets eating His flesh and drinking His blood v 54 as believing on Him v. 47.

We also see that it is only as we are eating/believing that we are having aeonous life. So aeonous life is an ongoing relationship of believing and believing and believing....

Believing in Him is believing His words, which are pieces of bread being given to Him from heaven to distribute to men. And in this context, this is the same thing as eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

We are being saved over and over again. For instance, there had no temptation taken you. such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
Every instance of this is us being saved.