Predestination is misunderstood...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#6,641
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
#6,641
Cameron143 said:
My only point was that there are people who understand the Gospel, believe it to be truth, but aren't saved.
Click to expand...
I do not believe a person can believe the gospel and not be saved because we are told the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe (Rom 1:16).

So I do agree someone can understand the gospel and not be saved.

I do not agree that someone can understand the gospel, believe the gospel, yet not be saved.
.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#6,642
Mar 1, 2022
20,063
6,874
113
62
#6,642
reneweddaybyday said:
right ... there are some sitting in church who think they are saved but they aren't which (to me) brings the total depravity issue into question (and I'm not saying whether or not you agree with total depravity). if natural man is so totally depraved, no unbelievers would be sitting in church thinking they are saved ... according to the total depravity-ers they would not seek God at all. yet, there they are sitting in church thinking they're saved.





There is a difference between mental assent and belief/believing (faith).

Mental assent reads the Bible but does not believe what is written (did God really say) ... agrees there is a God Who created the universe but does not believe in God ... mental assenters can live with or without God, which is sad because if a person can live without God, they aren't living.
.
Click to expand...
Total depravity doesn't deal with degree of deprivation. It simply means every aspect of man was affected...mind, heart, and will.
Truth itself can be known apart from belief.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#6,643
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#6,643
Cameron143 said:
Total depravity doesn't deal with degree of deprivation. It simply means every aspect of man was affected...mind, heart, and will.
Truth itself can be known apart from belief.
Click to expand...
ok so your still clinging on to total depravity having meaning, no worries.

You say your not a Calvinist, but I can only imagine your trying to understand the terminology.

But still it's leading to confusion in your part as I've seen your confusion many times already.

But let me ask you something, what is it your hoping to gain by trying to reason with a delusional meaning
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#6,644
Mar 1, 2022
20,063
6,874
113
62
#6,644
reneweddaybyday said:
I do not believe a person can believe the gospel and not be saved because we are told the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe (Rom 1:16).

So I do agree someone can understand the gospel and not be saved.

I do not agree that someone can understand the gospel, believe the gospel, yet not be saved.
.
Click to expand...
I could have been more accurate in the language I chose.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#6,645
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
#6,645
studier said:
Does Jesus even acknowledge or agree with the lawless ones that they did any of the things they say? Or did Jesus do what is quite typical of Him at times and just ignore what is said to Him and cut to the point? Or?
Click to expand...
When the pharisees accused Jesus of casting out devils by beelzebub (Matt 12:24, Mark 3:22, Luke 11:15), Jesus replied:

Luke 11:

19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

When Jesus told them He cast out devils with the finger of God, it was a reference to Exodus 8 when Moses told Aaron to stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt (Ex 8:16) ... the magicians of Egypt could not replicate what God had done so they told pharaoh this is the finger of God (Ex 8:19).

The pharisees would have been very knowledgeable of the reference to the finger of God ... and that Jesus was telling them if they were casting out demons differently than He was casting out demons then they were the ones who were casting them out by beelzebub.

They refused to believe Him and they refused to believe that the kingdom of God is come unto you.
.
 
selahsays

selahsays

Well-known member
#6,646
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#6,646
Cameron143 said:
Total depravity doesn't deal with degree of deprivation. It simply means every aspect of man was affected...mind, heart, and will.
Truth itself can be known apart from belief.
Click to expand...
So you think a person can know the Truth of God’s Word and not believe it? In other words, they simply reject God?
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#6,648
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
#6,648
Cameron143 said:
Total depravity doesn't deal with degree of deprivation. It simply means every aspect of man was affected...mind, heart, and will.
Click to expand...
When Adam and Eve sinned, God said the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22).

some folks do not believe mankind can know good and insist that mankind can only know evil ... so they carry that "total depravity" schtick to the extreme (again, not saying you).




Cameron143 said:
Truth itself can be known apart from belief.
Click to expand...
yes, in agreement. knowledge of truth and belief of truth are not the same.
.
 
sawdust

sawdust

Active member
#6,649
Feb 12, 2024
980
198
43
68
Australia
#6,649
Cameron143 said:
Perhaps. I don't know who is saved or not. I can make functional judgments concerning people, but don't know for sure. My only point was that there are people who understand the Gospel, believe it to be truth, but aren't saved.
Click to expand...
Are you hearing yourself? First you declare you don't know who is or isn't saved then you state categorically that even those who believe the Gospel aren't saved. Maybe I was wrong about you for it seems you do not believe God keeps His word.

I guarantee you, anyone who believes the Gospel to be true is saved, for the Lord has said many, many, many times throughout scripture that the one believing in Him has eternal life. God keeps His word.

I suggest to you, either you don't really know what your children believe or you don't trust God to keep His word.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#6,650
Mar 1, 2022
20,063
6,874
113
62
#6,650
sawdust said:
Are you hearing yourself? First you declare you don't know who is or isn't saved then you state categorically that even those who believe the Gospel aren't saved. Maybe I was wrong about you for it seems you do not believe God keeps His word.

I guarantee you, anyone who believes the Gospel to be true is saved, for the Lord has said many, many, many times throughout scripture that the one believing in Him has eternal life. God keeps His word.

I suggest to you, either you don't really know what your children believe or you don't trust God to keep His word.
Click to expand...
I should have been more precise in my choice of wording. But one can understand truth about God and salvation and not be saved.
 
sawdust

sawdust

Active member
#6,651
Feb 12, 2024
980
198
43
68
Australia
#6,651
reneweddaybyday said:
Mental assent reads the Bible but does not believe what is written
Click to expand...
I disagree. To assent means to agree. I think people here are confusing acknowledgement of what is said with assent to what is said. If you assent to the veracity of something you are believing it to be true.

The Romans 1 type did not assent (agree) to the existence of God as creator, they rejected the truth of God as creator and replaced it with a lie. They acknowledged this is what creation was telling them but they did not give assent to it, they very much disagreed.
 
sawdust

sawdust

Active member
#6,654
Feb 12, 2024
980
198
43
68
Australia
#6,654
Cameron143 said:
P

Please pardon my poor use of language. This was my point to begin with.
Click to expand...
No problem, stuff happens. I don't always get it right myself. :)

I hope you can appreciate I desired to be as accurate as possible in our language. Something I consider is even more important today with the commandeering of the English language simply to suit certain people's ego.
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#6,655
Oct 12, 2017
3,383
529
113
#6,655
Sipsey said:
You just answered your own question.
Click to expand...
That was not my question...

I was presenting the question that those who mish mash the meaning of Matthew 7:21-23, to apply to any half hearted believer.
The facts they fail to distinguish and need to be asking another question.

For many believers do fail to do God's after salvation and are not to be lumped in with those Jesus described in Matthew 7:21-23.
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#6,656
Oct 12, 2017
3,383
529
113
#6,656
sawdust said:
No problem, stuff happens. I don't always get it right myself. :)

I hope you can appreciate I desired to be as accurate as possible in our language. Something I consider is even more important today with the commandeering of the English language simply to suit certain people's ego.
Click to expand...

That only applies to the yobbos... ;) .... . now that is commandeering of the English language!
 
sawdust

sawdust

Active member
#6,657
Feb 12, 2024
980
198
43
68
Australia
#6,657
Genez said:
That only applies to the yobbos... ;) .... . now that is commandeering of the English language!
Click to expand...
There is a difference between the use of slang and changing the meaning of words to suit one's ego so their feelings aren't hurt. ;)

I am assuming you know what a yobbo is? Sometimes, it is from the uncouth one gets the most direct and most appropriate understanding of language and is usually guaranteed to offend. ;) :D
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#6,658
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
#6,658
sawdust said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Mental assent reads the Bible but does not believe what is written
Click to expand...
To assent means to agree. I think people here are confusing acknowledgement of what is said with assent to what is said. If you assent to the veracity of something you are believing it to be true.
Click to expand...
The distinction is in the term "mental assent". Scripture tells us we must believe in our heart ...

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John Calvin:

"The seat of faith, it deserves to be observed, is not in the brain, but the heart; not that I wish to enter into any dispute concerning the part of the body which is the seat of faith, but since the word heart generally means a serious, sincere, ardent affection, I am desirous to show the confidence of faith to be a firm, efficacious, and operative principle in all the emotions and feelings of the soul, not a mere naked notion of the head."​




sawdust said:
The Romans 1 type did not assent (agree) to the existence of God as creator, they rejected the truth of God as creator and replaced it with a lie. They acknowledged this is what creation was telling them but they did not give assent to it, they very much disagreed.
Click to expand...
Romans 1 tells us they worship and serve the creation more than the Creator (Rom 1:25).

God created the universe and all that is therein. I believe God wants us to enjoy His creation. What God does not want us to do is hold creation above ... or even equal to ... the Creator. In our day and time, it appears to me we are moving further and further from this truth.
.
 
sawdust

sawdust

Active member
#6,660
Feb 12, 2024
980
198
43
68
Australia
#6,660
reneweddaybyday said:
The distinction is in the term "mental assent". Scripture tells us we must believe in our heart ...
Click to expand...
Your heart is your thinking, specifically the place where you hold your most valuable thoughts from which comes your reality.

The Lord says "come, let us reason together" (Is.1:18) He doesn't say 'come, let us emote together'. Yet, too many Christians base their thinking on how they feel not on rational thought in accordance with God's word. We are to be transformed in our thinking because our emotions will be controlled by how we think.

The word is the truth with which we are to think. If you are not agreeing with the word in your thinking then you are not mentally assenting to the word and you are diverging from reality. (also known as insanity of which, we are all guilty to more or less degrees :) )
 
You must log in or register to reply here.