Predestination or free wiil.
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This is not accurate
Jesus said whoever believes is not condemned, Whoever does not believe in sconbdemned already. He also said in John 3, John 4, John 6 and other places. It is our belief in him that saves us.
Our potential to be saved was paid on the cross. Our savation is not secure until we say Yes to God Which we will nto do until we repent and have faith in him.
Jesus said whoever believes is not condemned, Whoever does not believe in sconbdemned already. He also said in John 3, John 4, John 6 and other places. It is our belief in him that saves us.
Our potential to be saved was paid on the cross. Our savation is not secure until we say Yes to God Which we will nto do until we repent and have faith in him.
I think that most people believe that the scriptures must agree one with another, as I do, to be the doctrine that Jesus taught. I used to have trouble with the scriptures , seemingly, to disagree with each other, until it was revealed to me that the Greek definition of "salvation, save, save" is "a deliverance. We are eternally delivered and we are delivered many times while we live here on earth. Most of the salvation scriptures are referring to timely deliverance, not eternal deliverance. Our faith in Christ's faith (faithfulness) to go to the cross saves (delivers) us here in time, but our faith in Jesus is not the cause of our eternal deliverance, just an evidence that we have eternal life. Christ's work on the cross saved us, not "our potential to be saved", and all that he died for will live with him in heaven without the loss of even one of those he died for.(John 6:39). anytime that you see the words repent believe, confess, ask, trust in God, accept etc. in a scripture, they are scriptures pertaining to the disobedient children of God. The natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 will not respond to those requests.
When Peter denied Christ three times did He know what Peter would probably do or did He definitely know. What about prophecy. Isn't it definite actions of men written years in advance to actual deeds. How about Jesus knowing what the devil would do with Judas as he fulfilled God's foreknowledge in advance. Does God know everything in advance and simply allows us not to know it letting us think that all of decisions are our own. Romans 8-28,29 for who He foreknew He did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son.
If God can plan a universe, it seems to make sense that He knows every specific detail and every decision that man thinks he makes by his own choice. Some other predetermination scriptures; Romans 9-11, 11-2, 9-22, 11-11. 1st Peter 1-2,20 2-8. Ephesians 1-3, 1-5, 1-11, 3-10 etc. There are so many indications that God is the motivator behind the thoughts of men that only men pride would let them think they could change anything by their own choice. Even Jesus said that He chose us, not us choosing Him ,like God knew in advance who His own would be, John 15-16. It seems that not only are our choices known, they are determined beforehand. I find that predetermination is the mainstay of scripture. The rest is mans casual observance of the choices they seem to make.
If God can plan a universe, it seems to make sense that He knows every specific detail and every decision that man thinks he makes by his own choice. Some other predetermination scriptures; Romans 9-11, 11-2, 9-22, 11-11. 1st Peter 1-2,20 2-8. Ephesians 1-3, 1-5, 1-11, 3-10 etc. There are so many indications that God is the motivator behind the thoughts of men that only men pride would let them think they could change anything by their own choice. Even Jesus said that He chose us, not us choosing Him ,like God knew in advance who His own would be, John 15-16. It seems that not only are our choices known, they are determined beforehand. I find that predetermination is the mainstay of scripture. The rest is mans casual observance of the choices they seem to make.
1. God knows EVERYTHING in advance. This is divine foreknowledge.
2. All human decisions are human decisions. That is not illusion or delusion. But God already knows what the outcome will be.
Take the crucifixion of Christ. Everything was known in advance, yet each evildoers made his own decision (many if not most under the influence of Satan). Pilate would have released Christ, but because of cowardice, he did not do so. God already knew the outcome.
2. All human decisions are human decisions. That is not illusion or delusion. But God already knows what the outcome will be.
Take the crucifixion of Christ. Everything was known in advance, yet each evildoers made his own decision (many if not most under the influence of Satan). Pilate would have released Christ, but because of cowardice, he did not do so. God already knew the outcome.
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1 Corinthians
2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
The natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 does not have to refer to the person who is not born again as some insist.
The natural man referred to in 1 Cor 2:14 signifies the born again believer who is carnal and, in fact, this rendering fits the context of 1 Cor 1 – 3.
The word "natural" is the Greek word psyxikós and the word typically describes the natural ("lower") aspect of humanity, i.e. behavior that is "more of earth (carnality) than heaven."
When we read the first 3 chapters of 1 Corinthians, we see that Paul wrote to the church and pointed out the carnal behavior of the believers.
The church at Corinth was contentious (1 Cor 1:11). They were divided into factions because the believers followed men (1 Cor 3:3-4).
Paul commented that he could go no further in his teaching than the very basics of Christianity – Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2) and he fed them with milk and not meat because they were not able to bear it (understand) (1 Cor 3:2).
Born again believers who are "carnal" and who behave like "natural man" cannot understand the wisdom of God in a mystery (1 Cor 2:7) which Paul taught to those who were perfect (1 Cor 2:6) ... not "perfect" as in no sin, but "perfect" as in full grown, adult, mature.
Paul was able to teach those believers who were no longer babes in Christ about the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory (1 Cor 2:7). Paul taught those who needed to be fed the milk of the word (1 Cor 3:1-2) about Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2).
However, Paul was unable to teach the hidden wisdom to those who were carnal and who behaved in accordance with who they were in Adam.
That is the meaning of natural man as shown in 1 Cor 2:14.
2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
The natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 does not have to refer to the person who is not born again as some insist.
The natural man referred to in 1 Cor 2:14 signifies the born again believer who is carnal and, in fact, this rendering fits the context of 1 Cor 1 – 3.
The word "natural" is the Greek word psyxikós and the word typically describes the natural ("lower") aspect of humanity, i.e. behavior that is "more of earth (carnality) than heaven."
When we read the first 3 chapters of 1 Corinthians, we see that Paul wrote to the church and pointed out the carnal behavior of the believers.
The church at Corinth was contentious (1 Cor 1:11). They were divided into factions because the believers followed men (1 Cor 3:3-4).
Paul commented that he could go no further in his teaching than the very basics of Christianity – Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2) and he fed them with milk and not meat because they were not able to bear it (understand) (1 Cor 3:2).
Born again believers who are "carnal" and who behave like "natural man" cannot understand the wisdom of God in a mystery (1 Cor 2:7) which Paul taught to those who were perfect (1 Cor 2:6) ... not "perfect" as in no sin, but "perfect" as in full grown, adult, mature.
Paul was able to teach those believers who were no longer babes in Christ about the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory (1 Cor 2:7). Paul taught those who needed to be fed the milk of the word (1 Cor 3:1-2) about Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2).
However, Paul was unable to teach the hidden wisdom to those who were carnal and who behaved in accordance with who they were in Adam.
That is the meaning of natural man as shown in 1 Cor 2:14.
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I agree
If jesus said we are saved by faith, then I believe him, Anyone or any doctrine which says otherwise I must reject as contradictory
Salvation here means saved from the penalty of sin. Its the only salvation that matter.
He who believes is NOT CONDEMNED (saved)
He who does not believe is condemned already (not saved)
If jesus said we are saved by faith, then I believe him, Anyone or any doctrine which says otherwise I must reject as contradictory
Salvation here means saved from the penalty of sin. Its the only salvation that matter.
He who believes is NOT CONDEMNED (saved)
He who does not believe is condemned already (not saved)
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Eph 2: 8 tells us how eph 2: 5 is accomplished in an induciduals life
For it is by GRACE you HAVE BEEN saved BY FAITH..
God does not just chose to save people. If he did, he would be a respecter of persons. And give selective favors..
it would be like a parent who has chldren, all whom are evil kids. And choses to saved 2 of them, while allowing the other 2 to burn.
No parent would do this. They would do whatever they could to save al 4 of them!
For it is by GRACE you HAVE BEEN saved BY FAITH..
God does not just chose to save people. If he did, he would be a respecter of persons. And give selective favors..
it would be like a parent who has chldren, all whom are evil kids. And choses to saved 2 of them, while allowing the other 2 to burn.
No parent would do this. They would do whatever they could to save al 4 of them!
My starting this thread was to let people know that God is in control of everything and for us not to be afraid of the outcome of things. The final outcome of things is not clear to us, but with the assurance that all activities under the sun have an ultimate positive outcome. If evil has also been preplanned, it shows us that God could still love us even though we had failed miserably We could never have known or appreciated God's full love for us unless we had become dirty first. Jesus knew all of this since He was called the Saviour of the world before it was ever created. What a unique way to show us more love than if we had not fallen at all.
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Here is where you missed it. God has asked natural men to obey His laws. All the time dealing with ancient Israel, God was not offering salvation. They were physically God's people and they had to physically obey. Salvation as we know it wasn't on the table.
That said, God has always been open to people for salvation. Those that sought God with all their hearts and minds were promised to find Him.
Jer. 29:11-14a "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD:"
2 Ch. 15:2 "And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."
That said, God has always been open to people for salvation. Those that sought God with all their hearts and minds were promised to find Him.
Jer. 29:11-14a "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD:"
2 Ch. 15:2 "And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."
What great lengths you go to in order to make man's works play a part in his eternal salvation. 1 Cor 2:14 does not depict the natural man as a born again child of God who is a babe in Christ. He has the spirit of man, but not the Holy spirit of God.(Eph 2:2-3). The natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 was DEAD in sin when God regenerated him (eph 2:5). When you are DEAD to spiritual things, you are not a babe in Christ. You are not IN CHRIST until you have been regenerated.
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You do not understad.
It is not that they do not have free will, It is that they would never think of such a thing.
You can’t be touched by God, Born again, Adopted as a son, Forgiven all you have ever done, united with Christ, see how sinful and deserving of hell you really are. Be chastened By God himself when you have done wrong, have your thinking changed from self centered to Christ centered, have his word opened up to you so you understand, (I have just touched on the many things God gives an adopted child the moment they are saved) Then all of a sudden say you know what? I do not believe this nonsense of Jesus and the cross anymore. He did not die for my sins, he is not even real.
Maybe you think they can? In this case, I would just wonder what reasoning....
It is not that they do not have free will, It is that they would never think of such a thing.
You can’t be touched by God, Born again, Adopted as a son, Forgiven all you have ever done, united with Christ, see how sinful and deserving of hell you really are. Be chastened By God himself when you have done wrong, have your thinking changed from self centered to Christ centered, have his word opened up to you so you understand, (I have just touched on the many things God gives an adopted child the moment they are saved) Then all of a sudden say you know what? I do not believe this nonsense of Jesus and the cross anymore. He did not die for my sins, he is not even real.
Maybe you think they can? In this case, I would just wonder what reasoning....