Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination

[Definition_Christ]

So you can destroy someone can you? Well then you make the cross in vain, however Christ says that He loses none of those given to Him. You are saying that He looses some, or that who? You lose some, by doing what? 'thy meat' you can destroy someones soul in hell with your 'meat', interesting???

I think Paul means he should be fed with herbs rather than meat, because he may be weak in the faith, just growing, like you, for example, and then Paul would advise "Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth not; for God has recieved him. Obviously you don't have the power to destroy a brother when God has recieved him, it just means dont push away, loosen, is another way to put it, the word is appollumi (destroy) it is the opposite to building up, so don't tear down what God has been building up.

PLEASE SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS CHRIST WILL NOT LOSE SOME??????
OBVIOUSLY you have the power to make your brother stumble which will destroy him and make him perish.. It's God's word man not mine!

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

PLEASE SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS CHRIST WILL NOT LOSE SOME??????
OBVIOUSLY you have the power to make your brother stumble which will destroy him and make him perish.. It's God's word man not mine!

"And this is the Father's will Which hath sent Me, that all which He hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day." John 6:39

And no you cannot destroy the soul of a brother whom God has recieved, you don't have that power, you can destroy or tear down what a man with the help of God has patiently built up on earth, that happens all the time believe me, you can be made accountable for that, but you personally do not have the power to grant eternal life or determin eternal destruction of another by anything you say or do.

 

[Definition_Christ]

"And this is the Father's will Which hath sent Me, that all which He hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again on the last day." John 6:39

And no you cannot destroy the soul of a brother whom God has recieved, you don't have that power, you can destroy or tear down what a man with the help of God has patiently built up on earth, that happens all the time believe me, you can be made accountable for that, but you personally do not have the power to grant eternal life or determin eternal destruction of another by anything you say or do.

Yes you can make your brother stumble which will make him perish let me post the scripture again in case you didn't read it properly.

1 Corinthians 8
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols?
11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Look I can imagine how hard it is repenting from a false gospel. Trust me it's worth it though.


Wow, you said there was a Scripture that said "Christ WILL lose none"..

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Lines up PERFECTLY WITH...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

And we know that salvation leads unto repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Where did I miss the part that said... "Christ WILL lose none." ??????

 

[Definition_Christ]

And no you cannot destroy the soul of a brother whom God has recieved, you don't have that power, you can destroy or tear down what a man with the help of God has patiently built up on earth, that happens all the time believe me, you can be made accountable for that, but you personally do not have the power to grant eternal life or determin eternal destruction of another by anything you say or do.

Just to let you know you can destroy the work of God

Romans 14:20
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.
(sorry to let you know!!)

 

[Definition_Christ]

Anyway.. I am going to bed I hope you can find AT LEAST ONE!! Just one scripture that supports your belief Christ did NOT die for everyone in the whole world. I mean you should have at least one Scripture to support this if you believe it.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Yes you can make your brother stumble which will make him perish let me post the scripture again in case you didn't read it properly.

1 Corinthians 8
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols?
11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Look I can imagine how hard it is repenting from a false gospel. Trust me it's worth it though.

So your actions and words can cause the salvation or eternal destruction of another and God can do nothing about it! Wow, your super powerful, im not as powerful as that, of course someone can go to the grave because of what I say or do, sure, they can perish to the grave, but I have no effect on eternal salvation, and neither do you.

Wow, you said there was a Scripture that said "Christ WILL lose none"..

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

The Great Sheperd loses none.

Lines up PERFECTLY WITH...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

And we know that salvation leads unto repentance.

Yes, He is longsuffereing to Us -ward! When you repent the Holy Spirit intercedes on your behalf, it not of yourself, your personal repentence, does not grant salvation, that would mean that you have granted your own salvation according to your own repentence. God changes your mind, you dont, and then the Holy Spirit convicts, and confession and faith is by the Holy Spirit, which is sent by Christ, as it is written He is not willing that any of His sheep go missing or perish unto eternal destruction but that they come to repentence.

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Where did I miss the part that said... "Christ WILL lose none." ??????

That's right, godly sorrow, comes from God, of God, those that believe in Christ are of God, produce godly sorrow, those of the world produce sorrow of the world.

 

[greatkraw]

You are right Cup, Once Saved always Saved.

 

[Definition_Christ]

John 12
47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 He who REJECTS Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.


1 Thessalonians 4:8
Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

Reject God? Rejects Christ???? Wow..
REJECT -

ἀθετέω
atheteō
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G5087; to set aside, that is, (by implication) to disesteem, neutralize or violate: - cast off, despise, disannul, frustrate, bring to nought, reject.

Please explain???

 

[MightyLionOfJuda]

funny ,growing up in a baptist church I never really gave this much thought,I guess because its really not that important.God knows the future and who will pick up their cross and follow Him ,so ya,not really interesting topic for me

 

[Definition_Christ]

And no you cannot destroy the soul of a brother whom God has recieved, you don't have that power, you can destroy or tear down what a man with the help of God has patiently built up on earth, that happens all the time believe me, you can be made accountable for that, but you personally do not have the power to grant eternal life or determin eternal destruction of another by anything you say or do.

Romans 14
15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.


Paul is not saying "This is an impossibility!". He is saying do not do this otherwise you WILL destroy your brother (make him perish as shown in;

1 Corinthians 8
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols?
11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Paul is WARNING us so we do not do this. So for you to say "no this is not possible". You are speaking that against God's word brother. Because Paul is saying IT is possible.

 

[Thaddaeus]

PLEASE SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS CHRIST WILL NOT LOSE SOME??????
OBVIOUSLY you have the power to make your brother stumble which will destroy him and make him perish.. It's God's word man not mine!

over and over , and over again, I will say that to destroy does not always mean the spirit/or soul, how many times will we read that the flesh can be destroyed but the Spirit will be saved, how many times , must we have to read, that works will be a gain or a loss , but the man himself will be saved, How many times before we can see that death does not always referr to the Spirit/or the soul, before we find How great His grace is.?//



1co 5:5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


1co 3:12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;1co 3:13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.1co 3:14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.1co 3:15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Lu 16:22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;Lu 16:23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

two people in this story died but both was not cast into h-ell as some in here would say when the scriptures says death it always mean death brings H-ell , Death can through Christ be a step to Life . if death or destruction of the Boby always means we are cast into hell why does the Bible teach,

Ec 7:1A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

Mt 10:28And fear not them which kill the BODY, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and BODY in hell.

 

[MahogonySnail]

over and over , and over again, I will say that to destroy does not always mean the spirit/or soul, how many times will we read that the flesh can be destroyed but the Spirit will be saved

When it says the flesh destroyed but the spirit saved, it does not mean that the spirit is saved without repentance or that a person in sin is saved. The author of that scripture is saying, that hopefully through destruction of the flesh the person will come to their senses and repent and thus save their soul/spirit. That was the whole point of a person being shunned by the church and treated as an unbeliever. In James it says if a person is turned back to the right way their soul is saved from death. So you cannot make any sort of claim that a person living in sin can still have a soul which is alive. See:

Jas 5:19 Brothers, if anyone among you err from the truth, and if anyone turns him back,
Jas 5:20 know that he who turns back the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 

[Definition_Christ]

over and over , and over again, I will say that to destroy does not always mean the spirit/or soul, how many times will we read that the flesh can be destroyed but the Spirit will be saved, how many times , must we have to read, that works will be a gain or a loss , but the man himself will be saved, How many times before we can see that death does not always referr to the Spirit/or the soul, before we find How great His grace is.?//



1co 5:5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


1co 3:12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;1co 3:13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.1co 3:14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.1co 3:15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Lu 16:22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;Lu 16:23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

two people in this story died but both was not cast into h-ell as some in here would say when the scriptures says death it always mean death brings H-ell , Death can through Christ be a step to Life . if death or destruction of the Boby always means we are cast into hell why does the Bible teach,

Ec 7:1A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.

Mt 10:28And fear not them which kill the BODY, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and BODY in hell.

Okay, I agree destroy does not always mean spiritual death. But I believe Paul was talking about making a weaker brother in faith stumble. He was saying don't do this, otherwise it will make your weaker brother stumble. So when Paul says; "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense." I take that as yes, we can destroy the work of God by making our brothers stumble. Now do we have the power to say, "Hmm, I don't like this Christian I think I'm going to make him go to hell".. No, absolutely not.

If we however do make our weaker brothers in faith stumble, that could possibly. 1) make them leave the faith.- That doesn't always mean they will not come back, but they may actually depart from their faith forever and end up in hell. I mean Paul is saying this is possible. He was warning us, not pointing out an impossibility.

1 Corinthians 8
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols?
11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

See.. Paul isn't saying destroyed here.. He is saying make the weak brother of faith perish due to us making him stumble. So whatever makes our brothers stumble, just like Paul is saying.. We should never do.. Otherwise there is the chance of them perishing by making them turn away from their faith/believing in Christ.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

When it says the flesh destroyed but the spirit saved, it does not mean that the spirit is saved without repentance or that a person in sin is saved. The author of that scripture is saying, that hopefully through destruction of the flesh the person will come to their senses and repent and thus save their soul/spirit. That was the whole point of a person being shunned by the church and treated as an unbeliever. In James it says if a person is turned back to the right way their soul is saved from death. So you cannot make any sort of claim that a person living in sin can still have a soul which is alive. See:

Jas 5:19 Brothers, if anyone among you err from the truth, and if anyone turns him back,
Jas 5:20 know that he who turns back the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

hmmm, I think Thaddeaus is right, and 'Snail brings up an interesting point that needs to be reconciled, and it can be. psuche is a word translated "soul" in the N.T. 105 times and is rendered "soul" 58 times, "life" 40 times, "mind" 3 times, and "heart", heartily", "us", and "you", once each.

Now we are specifically interested using the Bible as our interpretation where we can correspond Psuche used as "soul" for a man, and in fact there are 4 meanings and 2 main ones we can divide them thus:

I . Psuche - used of man as an individual (Just as we speak of a ship going down with every 'soul' on board) occurs 14 times, rendered - "soul": Acts 2:41,43; 3:23; 7:14; 27:37. Rom. 2:9; 13:1. Cor. 15:45. James 5:20 1 Pet. 3:20; 2 Pet. 2:14. Rev. 6:9; 18:13; 20:4.

II. Psuche - used of the life of the man, which can be lost, destroyed, saved, laid down, occurs 58 times, rendered - 1. "life": Matt. 2:20; 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; 20:28. Mark. 3:4; 8:35; 10:45. Luke 6:9; 9:24; 12:22; 14:26; 17:33. John 10:11,15,17; 12:25; 13:37,38; 15:13. Acts 15:26; 20:10,24; 27:10,22. Rom. 11:3; 16:4. Phil. 2:30. 1 John 3:16. Rev. 12:11. 2. "soul": Matt. 10:28; 16:26. Mark. 8:36,37. Luke 12:20; 21:19. 1 Thess. 2:8; 5:23. Heb. 4:12; 6:19; 10:39; 13:17. James 1:21. 1 Pet. 1:9; 2:11,25; 4:19.

Now Psuche is also rendered 'soul' to emphasize the pronoun, as we use "self" (e.g. "my soul") occurs 21 times. And Psuche is used with intensive force, to express all powers of ones being, occurs 10 times.

From that one should be able to deduce that meaning of the word using the bible as interpretation for the different senses in which the word is used.

 

[Definition_Christ]

hmmm, I think Thaddeaus is right, and 'Snail brings up an interesting point that needs to be reconciled, and it can be. psuche is a word translated "soul" in the N.T. 105 times and is rendered "soul" 58 times, "life" 40 times, "mind" 3 times, and "heart", heartily", "us", and "you", once each.

Now we are specifically interested using the Bible as our interpretation where we can correspond Psuche used as "soul" for a man, and in fact there are 4 meanings and 2 main ones we can divide them thus:

I . Psuche - used of man as an individual (Just as we speak of a ship going down with every 'soul' on board) occurs 14 times, rendered - "soul": Acts 2:41,43; 3:23; 7:14; 27:37. Rom. 2:9; 13:1. Cor. 15:45. James 5:20 1 Pet. 3:20; 2 Pet. 2:14. Rev. 6:9; 18:13; 20:4.

II. Psuche - used of the life of the man, which can be lost, destroyed, saved, laid down, occurs 58 times, rendered - 1. "life": Matt. 2:20; 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; 20:28. Mark. 3:4; 8:35; 10:45. Luke 6:9; 9:24; 12:22; 14:26; 17:33. John 10:11,15,17; 12:25; 13:37,38; 15:13. Acts 15:26; 20:10,24; 27:10,22. Rom. 11:3; 16:4. Phil. 2:30. 1 John 3:16. Rev. 12:11. 2. "soul": Matt. 10:28; 16:26. Mark. 8:36,37. Luke 12:20; 21:19. 1 Thess. 2:8; 5:23. Heb. 4:12; 6:19; 10:39; 13:17. James 1:21. 1 Pet. 1:9; 2:11,25; 4:19.

Now Psuche is also rendered 'soul' to emphasize the pronoun, as we use "self" (e.g. "my soul") occurs 21 times. And Psuche is used with intensive force, to express all powers of ones being, occurs 10 times.

From that one should be able to deduce that meaning of the word using the bible as interpretation for the different senses in which the word is used.

Dude.. You don't speak Greek why do you think you can translate better than bible scholars? You know people who actually know the language and don't use Strong's?

If there are 10 bible translations that all say soul, and these are all bible scholars. Why would you think you could translate better than them because you found out the word has different definitions due to certain contexts of the word?

Hope you can help me answer this though.

John 12
47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 He who REJECTS Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.


1 Thessalonians 4:8
Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

Reject God? Rejects Christ???? Wow..
REJECT -

ἀθετέω
atheteō
From a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G5087; to set aside, that is, (by implication) to disesteem, neutralize or violate: - cast off, despise, disannul, frustrate, bring to nought, reject.

Please explain???

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Dude.. You don't speak Greek why do you think you can translate better than bible scholars? You know people who actually know the language and don't use Strong's?

Now hang on there kid, your being a little hasty, you didn't really even try to understand what I wrote, if you analyze it, instead of making hasty assumptions about me, you might learn something.

If there are 10 bible translations that all say soul, and these are all bible scholars. Why would you think you could translate better than them because you found out the word has different definitions due to certain contexts of the word?

As I explained there are 4 different meanings when Psuche is translated as soul, and many Bible scholars and translators will make notes on this that you can read.

John 12
47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 He who REJECTS Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.


1 Thessalonians 4:8
Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

Reject God? Rejects Christ???? Wow..
REJECT -


Please explain???

You have two definite statements which both agree, he who rejects Jesus Christ rejects God! He who rejects Jesus Christ has rejected God, statement of fact given by the Bible.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Now hang on there kid, your being a little hasty, you didn't really even try to understand what I wrote, if you analyze it, instead of making hasty assumptions about me, you might learn something.



As I explained there are 4 different meanings when Psuche is translated as soul, and many Bible scholars and translators will make notes on this that you can read.






You have two definite statements which both agree, he who rejects Jesus Christ rejects God! He who rejects Jesus Christ has rejected God, statement of fact given by the Bible.

You are right I was a little harsh. I am sorry about that.. Please forgive me I just woke up and am still tired which is no excuse to be a jerk - sorry.

But I understand completely people can reject God and Christ. That is my point. The calvinist will say there is no choice for man's will in salvation. But Jesus clearly says "He who REJECTS me"... So that tells me yes, the sinner who goes to hell rejected Christ. Meaning he was given the opportunity to accept Him.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

You are right I was a little harsh. I am sorry about that.. Please forgive me I just woke up and am still tired which is no excuse to be a jerk - sorry.

But I understand completely people can reject God and Christ. That is my point. The calvinist will say there is no choice for man's will in salvation. But Jesus clearly says "He who REJECTS me"... So that tells me yes, the sinner who goes to hell rejected Christ. Meaning he was given the opportunity to accept Him.

Yes, and "he who rejects Me" is a statement of fact, now does Jesus lose any of His sheep? No. Not one, He is God, so those that reject Him, are not His sheep, wheat and tares, sheep and goats, good fruit and bad fruit, human will is not greater than God's will. if you are His, He will find you and He will be your God.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Yes, and "he who rejects Me" is a statement of fact, now does Jesus lose any of His sheep? No. Not one, He is God, so those that reject Him, are not His sheep, wheat and tares, sheep and goats, good fruit and bad fruit, human will is not greater than God's will. if you are His, He will find you and He will be your God.

How does that line up with....

John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

 

[Sharp]

Is reprobation a calvinist doctrine or a hyper-calvinist doctrine?