Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination

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I wasn't directing my comment at greatkraw. It should be noted (if it hasn't been already) that in regards to Spurgeon, he wasn't a fully fledged Calvinist. He most certainly identified with elements of Calvinism, however there were areas he disagreed with as well. I do have a quote somewhere at home of his that verifies as much, unfortunately I don't have it handy!
 
I wasn't directing my comment at greatkraw. It should be noted (if it hasn't been already) that in regards to Spurgeon, he wasn't a fully fledged Calvinist. He most certainly identified with elements of Calvinism, however there were areas he disagreed with as well. I do have a quote somewhere at home of his that verifies as much, unfortunately I don't have it handy!

Here's a quote you can use:

"I'm not a fully fledged Calvinist" ~ Spurgeon.
 
The elect still have to get saved. No-one is saved at birth. He is saying that he is enduring so that the elect can obtain the salvataion that God predestined for them. Some of the elect were not saved at the time, as is the case now.
are you a calvinist or teacher of the tulip???
 
My thread 'Who are the Gentiles' is available to read on my public view on this forum, I am sure it can answer all your questions.




That's right, they also became nations as well, fullfilling promises made to Abraham by God.



I think your getting some key words mixed up, namely 'nations' and 'Gentiles', the Greek word ethnos means 'one of the same tribe', of a like kind or class, from where we get the words 'genus', 'gentle', 'gentry', 'genteel', see the Latin GENS - meaning to beget or produce of the same kind - ethnos - see Liddel & Scott.




Specifically a 'household dog', I gave you the word for this, it was common for Judah to see divorced Israel in this manner, however Jesus set the men of Judah straight on this saying in His ministry "I come only for the lost sheep of Israel' whom were scattered abroad, like this woman in Canaan land, who was a believer in the Messiah, just like the Samaritans were descended from Jacob, Jesus went to them early in His ministry because they were Israel.



I know what it says and I'm explaining to you what it means, so you can understand, I don't wish that anyone dwell in darkness and ignorance.
-I've read your threads you have lots of conspiracy theories and no evidence for anything that you say.

-They don't "become" the nations, they are scattered across the nations.

-I have no clue why you would think I was referring to Greek when I say gentile? I'm sure that's not even a Greek word it's probably a translation of Hebrew. The word I was referring to was "Goyish", which is Hebrew, an English translation would be gentiles. It is literally translated - "foreign nations", lol I have no clue where you got the silly idea it means "of the same tribe". Almost exactly the opposite of what you think it is.

-That is not what a Samaritan is, a Samaritan is a half-Jew half-gentile. I it's somewhere in 2nd Kings, might want to read about that.

-Yeah I'm sure you try to lead a lot of people out of "darkness".
 
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-They don't "become" the nations, they are scattered across the nations.

Descendents of Shem to become Nations - Gen. 10:5

Abraham to be the father of many Nations - Gen. 17:4

"I know it my son, I know it; he also shall be come a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater then he and his seed SHALL BECOME A MULTITUDE OF NATIONS" Gen. 48:19

Israel became a commonwealth of Nations as we see today according to the sure word of the Bible, prophecy is fullfilled and Israel are indeed a commonwealth of Nations.

-I have no clue why you would think I was referring to Greek when I say gentile? I'm sure that's not even a Greek word it's probably a translation of Hebrew.

Perhaps because the New Testament is written in Greek.


The word I was referring to was "Goyish", which is Hebrew, an English translation would be gentiles. It is literally translated - "foreign nations", lol I have no clue where you got the silly idea it means "of the same tribe". Almost exactly the opposite of what you think it is.

No, ethnos is literally translated 'one of the same tribe, kind, clan', that exact opposite of what you think, any good Greek lexicon will confirm this.

-That is not what a Samaritan is, a Samaritan is a half-Jew half-gentile. I it's somewhere in 2nd Kings, might want to read about that.

Samaritans were descended from Jacob, you can read this in your Bible- John 4:12

-Yeah I'm sure you try to lead a lot of people out of "darkness".

Yes, but its not my will, I would prefer not to, but there is one that leads all His sheep, and I serve Him.
 
1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
 
Is there any Scripture that says God predestined people to go to hell?

If not - why do certain people believe it?

1 Corinthians 4:6
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
 
Is there any Scripture that says God predestined people to go to hell?

If not - why do certain people believe it?

1 Corinthians 4:6
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.

Thank you for the scripture! Good post.
 
There is nothing in the bible that mentions reprobation. But I have come to the conclusion now that unconditional election does not necessarily encompass reprobation.
 
There is nothing in the bible that mentions reprobation. But I have come to the conclusion now that unconditional election does not necessarily encompass reprobation.
You are right, the bible never mentions God predestining people to hell.

However there is an undeniable "Elect", let's take a look at who the elect are.

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

We are the elect, according to foreknowledge of whom God knew would willingly come into a covenant with Him. We are not the elect according to predestination.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We are also predestined according to foreknowledge. Note you won't find anywhere in Scripture God say He predestined ANYONE to heaven. That is also outside of Scripture. You will find "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son",
"predestined to the adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself",
"to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."
"predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

So, not only is predestination based on foreknowledge (Rom 8:29), but we are not even predestined to go to heaven. That is nowhere found in Scripture.

Let me just give you an example here, because you sound like a reasonable man of God who is open to Gods truth.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

First I want to point out Ephesians 1, as you noticed I underlined "in Christ", we were chosen IN Christ. So before we were IN Christ, we were not chosen. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us HOW, and WHEN we are chosen.

How? "Through sanctification by the Spirit"
When? once we have a "belief in the truth"

We were not IN Christ, before the foundation of the world. The point that is being made here is whoever chooses to be in Christ. (Note i say chooses because you must willingly love God, and place your faith in Jesus). You are predestined to blessings, adoption etc etc IF you are in Christ. You are chosen by God IF you are in Christ. It's more of predestining two groups. Rather than individual predestination.

I heard an example like this..
A school teacher, on the first day of class, told his students that some would pass and some would fail the course they were about to take. He then described the things necessary for one to be of those who would pass. At the end of the school year, just as the teacher had said, some passed and some failed. Since the teacher predestinated the outcome before he began, did it mean that he caused each individual to either pass or fail and that there was nothing they could do about it?
No. Likewise, God predestinated before He made the world that He would choose those "in Christ"
and revealed those things necessary for one to be in Him. It is therefore up to each individual to do those things necessary to be found in Christ and have salvation.

No where you or anyone can show me a Scripture that says we are predestined to go to heaven. We are predestined to go to heaven if we are IN Christ though. How do we get "in Christ"? As I have shown you in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "how, and when?", I can show you in other places how you become "in Christ".

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Very very important. No Calvinist will agree with Peter here! They say there is NOTHING you can do to be saved, you were predestined!
Peter on the other hand was no Calvinist.
Let's go over this step by step.

"Repent"
John 16 (Speaking about the Holy Spirit; as "He".)
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Conviction leads to sorrow, if you respond.

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

If you feel that conviction, that produces repentance, that LEADS to salvation.

Now.. Let's go over the second thing Peter said.
"let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

Baptism, very important. Let's see why..

Romans 6
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Thirdly. "and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Now this is VERY key.

Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

So very important, because the Calvinist will say that BEFORE, they were saved they were in NO danger of hell, they were God's elect OUTSIDE of Christ. Now the reason why that is so false is because if we do NOT have the Holy Spirit, we are NOT HIS.
(Note, NONE of us had the Holy Spirit BEFORE we came to Jesus.)
So we were NOT, born-again meaning we were spiritually dead.

So we WERE dead, and the Calvinist will agree and quote Ephesans 2:1 which says "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins"

The BIGGEST problem with that is, God is NOT the God of the dead. Therefore we couldn't have been the elect BEFORE we came to Jesus.

Mark 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.

We are only the elect once we are "IN CHRIST", just as all the predestination Scriptures say. Let ALONE we have a scripture that says predestination is based on foreknowledge and once again election is also based on foreknowledge. (Rom. 8:29, 1 Peter 1:2)

Colossians 1
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
 
No but I believe in unconditional election.
unconditional election before time begin as we know time, so God says ok keith is in, he is elected. but I never receive salvation through Jesus Christ and His Works, I never bow to Jesus as My Lord, what happens to my soul??
 
unconditional election before time begin as we know time, so God says ok keith is in, he is elected. but I never receive salvation through Jesus Christ and His Works, I never bow to Jesus as My Lord, what happens to my soul??

I believe God knew you would come to him, and God's will is stronger than yours. I don't think there is anything you could've done to resist God's grace if you are among the elect. I think unconditional election and man choosing God can operate concurrently in God's divine plan. And I don't think that we are elected because of God's foreknowledge of our choice - that's not grace. That's us making the first move towards our salvation, a concept which I can not accept.
 
I believe God knew you would come to him, and God's will is stronger than yours. I don't think there is anything you could've done to resist God's grace if you are among the elect. I think unconditional election and man choosing God can operate concurrently in God's divine plan. And I don't think that we are elected because of God's foreknowledge of our choice - that's not grace. That's us making the first move towards our salvation, a concept which I can not accept.

First - "You can't resist God's grace if you are among the elect"
Meaning you CAN resist God's grace if you are not elect? But can you respond to it?

Acts 7:51
You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

"I don't think that we are elected because of God's foreknowledge of our choice"

1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

"That's not grace"..

It really boils down to - is faith a work? If you HAVE to place your faith in Christ to be saved..
Is that a work?
Absolutely not!

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

So.. If it's by faith IT IS according to grace.. if you respond to the gospel and say Lord I believe, it is OF grace. Faith is not a work, it is grace and all glory to God.

"That's us making the first move towards our salvation, a concept which I can not accept"

Absolutely not.

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

The question is, will you respond to the Father by placing your faith in Christ? (which is not a work)

Once again. Peter did not believe in this doctrine of "unconditional election".

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 11: 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

If you disagree does God FORCE you to believe/trust in Jesus?
And force you to love Him?
 
I believe God knew you would come to him, and God's will is stronger than yours. I don't think there is anything you could've done to resist God's grace if you are among the elect. I think unconditional election and man choosing God can operate concurrently in God's divine plan. And I don't think that we are elected because of God's foreknowledge of our choice - that's not grace. That's us making the first move towards our salvation, a concept which I can not accept.
so now you theory really has me confused, first you say that even the elect has to obtain salvation but that the elect has no authority from God to turn from His election. so if you are elected and in and you can't change this why do you need to obtain salvation if you don't you are still in so why did paul knowing all this suffer so that the elect could get in ??????????
 
Man having free will to choose God does not preclude God electing some.
 
Eleven pages, 220 posts. Everybody of the same opinion as previously. Maybe you are right.