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Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination
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greatkraw
Guest
Actually you are really talking about Irresistable Grace.
Grace is resistable.
See Felix in Acts.
LOL
Yes, might be time to wrap this one up fellas.
The questions I had from the original post have been answered, and I've now formed my opinions on this issue.
Thankyou to everyone for your contribution!
F
freeman4
Guest
If I understand Predestination right, it is that ALLindividuals are predestined to be called. But only those who hear and listen to God and His word are truly chosen. But it is in ALL individuals to have the opportunity to be called.
freeman4:
freeman4:
Originally Posted by oopsies 
I see it like this: God is outside of time so He knows what will happen. He knows who will accept Jesus as their sin atonement. So in a sense, these people are "predestined." But these people have free will because they live in the confinements of time. So, they will make that free choice.
Lol, I just finished re-posting this onto a second thread, guess I might as well stick it here too. Maybe we need a whole entire section just for threads on predestination. I think it's a healthy thing to ask questions about. Anyhow, here's what I've already said twice now:
Yay, I figured out how to use a quote! Took me long enough. Anyways, I just wanna say I agree. Was hoping someone would point out that God is outside time. And whilst I hate debate just for the sake of someone having to be right, I do believe that what one believes on this subject is important to their lives and the kingdom because it affects the way you view relationship with God, and the way you make decidions.
I read a book once called "when life and beliefs collide" - I forget who the author was, but it changed my life. The long and short of what it said was that in the end we're not going to be able to comprehend the co-existance of these two things: both that God is sovreign and that we have free will. But that doesn't mean we can't accept that both are true.
Similarly in our human earthly existance we probably will never fully grasp such notions as heaven, and the Trynity. (sp?) Trinity. Trynity. I know a girl called Trynity so now it looks right to me but I'm not sure whether that's how it's really spelled. Anyway.
If there is no free will it means that God's plan all along was for Adam and Eve to sin when he made them. Why would a loving God create mankind and give them a commandment they had no choice but to disobey? If there is no free will then how could there even be such a thing as guilt (as opposed to innocence?) How can there be any accountability for actions if everyone is just doing what they were predestined to do?
But there is also definitely a sense in which God has a sovereign plan spelled out for our lives, and, corporately for mankind. The bible is full of prophesies and repeatedly at the occur--..um....ment ... uh... occursion... occurness .. what's the noun for occur?
My vocabulary aint working well today. ~sigh~ At the happening of various occurances (Ah! found it) Jesus said I'm not afraid of you, this was part of the plan, just look at the scriptures, this was prophesied about.
So did Judas have no choice but to betray Jesus? Did Herrod have no choice but to pursue Jesus as a baby to kill him? I think they did have a choice. But God stands outside of time.
The world is full of really bad stuff. Satan attacks, the world leaks its sinfulness all over us, and by our own free will we screw up, rebell, make mistakes, try and fail. If God is not sovreign, we're really screwed! How could we ever, left to our own vices, achieve God's plan for our lives?
I don't belive God looks at our screwups and goes "Oh my goodness! When I made you I had no idea you would do that! Oh no my plan is ruined. Ok ok, plan B. We were heading this way, but now you've screwed it up, now let's go this way."
I'm not saying we have no responsibilty for our actions, and that our choices don't affect our future. What I'm saying is God stands outside of time and knew before we were born what we would choose.
And his sovereign plan for us doesn't dodge our free will but (get this) includes our mistakes, Satans attacks and the cares of this world, and is in fact accomplished through them. How awesome is that? How clever is God? Woot yay God.
I'ts a little bit like (but as oopsies was saying its an imperfect example because we are not sovreign) when you look at a child and make plans for their life. You can look at your adorable baby and know that when they are a teething, they probably are going to put you through hell. And on their first day of school, they may cry. And when they're a teen, at some point, they possibly will clash with you or hate you.
Now do you want those things to happen? Of course not. Is it your perfect will for that to happen? If you had things the way you wanted, in an ideal situation, is this how you would plan it out? No. But you know it will. You're not God so you don't know the details but you understand a bit about life and human nature and with that in mind, and love in your heart, you make plans for your child that includes those things.
Personally I don't like using the phrase "God's will" because I think it is confusing language. I know it appears in the bible, and am not saying it's wrong to use. I'm just saying that those words were translated from another language, "will" was the best English interpretation someone could come up with and that is fine, (and I'm not saying it's not accurate).
I'm just saying sometimes saying things a different way makes them easier to understand.
The book I read talks about there's God's revealed will and his sovereign will. Another way to say it is there's what God wants and there's the plan.
Eve taking that fruit wasn't what God wanted, and she had the choice to do it. But he knew what she would choose, so it was part of the plan. How else could God have known us since the creation of the world, if he did not know anything about us at that point, and that we would be born into this kind of world?
God's revealed will is the stuff he's told us he wants. Love one another. Love God. Pray. Fight the good fight of faith. All things he's revealed he wants us to do. Commandments.
Then there's his sovreign will. As he stands outside of time and sees the choices we will make, he has a plan for our lives that includes them.
When I talk to God now about his will I find much more clarity and peace if I use these distinctions. Am I talking about the things he is asking or commanding me to do, or am I talking about his sovreign plan for me?
The practical outworking of allowing these two truths to co-exist lies in the balance of a paradox. Pursue wisdom, because you have free will, and are responsible for the decisions you make, as they affect your future and eternal destiny. And at the same time, do not fret, and trust God, because he stands outside of time and has a plan for your life.
I remain teachable, but will say that thus far this doctrine on this subject is the only one that has stood the test of time in producing good fruit in my life.
Love
I see it like this: God is outside of time so He knows what will happen. He knows who will accept Jesus as their sin atonement. So in a sense, these people are "predestined." But these people have free will because they live in the confinements of time. So, they will make that free choice.
Lol, I just finished re-posting this onto a second thread, guess I might as well stick it here too. Maybe we need a whole entire section just for threads on predestination. I think it's a healthy thing to ask questions about. Anyhow, here's what I've already said twice now:
Yay, I figured out how to use a quote! Took me long enough. Anyways, I just wanna say I agree. Was hoping someone would point out that God is outside time. And whilst I hate debate just for the sake of someone having to be right, I do believe that what one believes on this subject is important to their lives and the kingdom because it affects the way you view relationship with God, and the way you make decidions.
I read a book once called "when life and beliefs collide" - I forget who the author was, but it changed my life. The long and short of what it said was that in the end we're not going to be able to comprehend the co-existance of these two things: both that God is sovreign and that we have free will. But that doesn't mean we can't accept that both are true.
Similarly in our human earthly existance we probably will never fully grasp such notions as heaven, and the Trynity. (sp?) Trinity. Trynity. I know a girl called Trynity so now it looks right to me but I'm not sure whether that's how it's really spelled. Anyway.
If there is no free will it means that God's plan all along was for Adam and Eve to sin when he made them. Why would a loving God create mankind and give them a commandment they had no choice but to disobey? If there is no free will then how could there even be such a thing as guilt (as opposed to innocence?) How can there be any accountability for actions if everyone is just doing what they were predestined to do?
But there is also definitely a sense in which God has a sovereign plan spelled out for our lives, and, corporately for mankind. The bible is full of prophesies and repeatedly at the occur--..um....ment ... uh... occursion... occurness .. what's the noun for occur?
My vocabulary aint working well today. ~sigh~ At the happening of various occurances (Ah! found it) Jesus said I'm not afraid of you, this was part of the plan, just look at the scriptures, this was prophesied about.
So did Judas have no choice but to betray Jesus? Did Herrod have no choice but to pursue Jesus as a baby to kill him? I think they did have a choice. But God stands outside of time.
The world is full of really bad stuff. Satan attacks, the world leaks its sinfulness all over us, and by our own free will we screw up, rebell, make mistakes, try and fail. If God is not sovreign, we're really screwed! How could we ever, left to our own vices, achieve God's plan for our lives?
I don't belive God looks at our screwups and goes "Oh my goodness! When I made you I had no idea you would do that! Oh no my plan is ruined. Ok ok, plan B. We were heading this way, but now you've screwed it up, now let's go this way."
I'm not saying we have no responsibilty for our actions, and that our choices don't affect our future. What I'm saying is God stands outside of time and knew before we were born what we would choose.
And his sovereign plan for us doesn't dodge our free will but (get this) includes our mistakes, Satans attacks and the cares of this world, and is in fact accomplished through them. How awesome is that? How clever is God? Woot yay God.
I'ts a little bit like (but as oopsies was saying its an imperfect example because we are not sovreign) when you look at a child and make plans for their life. You can look at your adorable baby and know that when they are a teething, they probably are going to put you through hell. And on their first day of school, they may cry. And when they're a teen, at some point, they possibly will clash with you or hate you.
Now do you want those things to happen? Of course not. Is it your perfect will for that to happen? If you had things the way you wanted, in an ideal situation, is this how you would plan it out? No. But you know it will. You're not God so you don't know the details but you understand a bit about life and human nature and with that in mind, and love in your heart, you make plans for your child that includes those things.
Personally I don't like using the phrase "God's will" because I think it is confusing language. I know it appears in the bible, and am not saying it's wrong to use. I'm just saying that those words were translated from another language, "will" was the best English interpretation someone could come up with and that is fine, (and I'm not saying it's not accurate).
I'm just saying sometimes saying things a different way makes them easier to understand.
The book I read talks about there's God's revealed will and his sovereign will. Another way to say it is there's what God wants and there's the plan.
Eve taking that fruit wasn't what God wanted, and she had the choice to do it. But he knew what she would choose, so it was part of the plan. How else could God have known us since the creation of the world, if he did not know anything about us at that point, and that we would be born into this kind of world?
God's revealed will is the stuff he's told us he wants. Love one another. Love God. Pray. Fight the good fight of faith. All things he's revealed he wants us to do. Commandments.
Then there's his sovreign will. As he stands outside of time and sees the choices we will make, he has a plan for our lives that includes them.
When I talk to God now about his will I find much more clarity and peace if I use these distinctions. Am I talking about the things he is asking or commanding me to do, or am I talking about his sovreign plan for me?
The practical outworking of allowing these two truths to co-exist lies in the balance of a paradox. Pursue wisdom, because you have free will, and are responsible for the decisions you make, as they affect your future and eternal destiny. And at the same time, do not fret, and trust God, because he stands outside of time and has a plan for your life.
I remain teachable, but will say that thus far this doctrine on this subject is the only one that has stood the test of time in producing good fruit in my life.
Love
M
machew
Guest
I suppose I will post this on this thread as well, since there are 10000 threads of predestination debates lol
If you look at Romans 8:29, it seems pretty clear to me that He has predestined His purposes and plan in our lives. This is very different than predestining our choices. God can have (predestine) an amazing purpose and plan for our life, but we still have to decide if we want to choose and embrace it.
Romans 8:29
This is a popular verse for a Calvinist to use. There's only one problem, if you read the whole verse and not just half of it, it is clear that what is being predestined is "to become conformed to the image of His Son." Again God has a predestined plan for us, and He has set everything in place for us to succeed if we choose to follow Him. Additionally, Paul isn't even talking about us becoming saved. He is writing a letter to the Romans about those amongst them who are already saved, and God's predestined plan for them to be conformed into the image of Jesus. The whole book of Romans seems to be for the purpose of instructing them to keep them from choosing/straying into legalism and sinfulness. Using this verse to prove predestined choices is absurd. Can you imagine Paul saying, "oh by the way you were predestined by God, so your choices, they were determined by God before hand, yet this whole letter I am writing to you is an exhortation to make Godly choices." As you can see this doesn't make too much sense.
There are other verses that Calvinists use, but I think I have beaten this dead horse enough already.
Conclusion: God predestines the plans and the destiny He wants for us, but not our choice to go along with it. We make that decision.
If you look at Romans 8:29, it seems pretty clear to me that He has predestined His purposes and plan in our lives. This is very different than predestining our choices. God can have (predestine) an amazing purpose and plan for our life, but we still have to decide if we want to choose and embrace it.
Romans 8:29
This is a popular verse for a Calvinist to use. There's only one problem, if you read the whole verse and not just half of it, it is clear that what is being predestined is "to become conformed to the image of His Son." Again God has a predestined plan for us, and He has set everything in place for us to succeed if we choose to follow Him. Additionally, Paul isn't even talking about us becoming saved. He is writing a letter to the Romans about those amongst them who are already saved, and God's predestined plan for them to be conformed into the image of Jesus. The whole book of Romans seems to be for the purpose of instructing them to keep them from choosing/straying into legalism and sinfulness. Using this verse to prove predestined choices is absurd. Can you imagine Paul saying, "oh by the way you were predestined by God, so your choices, they were determined by God before hand, yet this whole letter I am writing to you is an exhortation to make Godly choices." As you can see this doesn't make too much sense.
There are other verses that Calvinists use, but I think I have beaten this dead horse enough already.
Conclusion: God predestines the plans and the destiny He wants for us, but not our choice to go along with it. We make that decision.