Predestination vs Freewill - Possible Solution to argument

[ForestGreenCook]

Yep he chose them, Based on His will.
What is his will?

That whoever sees the son and believes in him shall have eternal life, He Will raise on the last day, And he shall lose no one.

God chose to save people who said yes, and not save those who said no. Thats Gods right to do. Who are you you to say he has no right to do what he willed?

I can not believe how many on this forum are not familiar with Ps 53:2-3. After those that he choose were born into this world, he regenerated them before they choose to believe. When we were but natural men/women we had no ability to choose anything of a spiritual nature, such as believing in spiritual things.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can not believe how many on this forum are not familiar with Ps 53:2-3. After those that he choose were born into this world, he regenerated them before they choose to believe. When we were but natural men/women we had no ability to choose anything of a spiritual nature, such as believing in spiritual things.

I can not believe you are basing a whole belief system on a few verses. And ignoring the rest of scripture.

I posted Jesus own words about what he thought Gods will was. Why do you not believe him?

 

[Lafftur]

Read ps 53:2-3 - Your sincere decision was not a good one.

ForestGreenCook, everyone is entitled to their own belief and opinion. We can disagree respectfully WITHOUT attacking each other's decisions.

 

[PS]

I've got a possible solution to this longstanding argument:

Both Predestined and Freewill apply to a believer's life. God can override us and do whatever He wants; however, God wants us to know Him and love Him. This involves us having a choice because love without a choice is NOT love.

So, God offers us two paths - the Path of Life (God's Will) or the Path of Death (our will). This is the choice we make. This is our freewill - we get to choose which path. This is when we choose God or ourselves. Remember Moses said, "I set before you life and death. Choose life."

Both paths are predestined. Their end is predetermined and unchangeable. If I choose the Path of Life which is God's Will for my life, it ends with Eternal Life with God. If I choose the Path of Death which is my will for my life, it ends with Eternal Death apart from God. NOTHING changes the end of the path - it is predestined.

I may jump back and forth between the two paths; however, once I settle down and finalize my decision, my end is predestined.

On each path way I have "wiggle room freewill" which is that I get to make choices, but they do not interfere with the final end of the path.

So, predestination and freewill do not contradict each other and both apply. God does not want robots. He wants our genuine love for Him.

Please, share your thoughts.

In the beginning Adam and Eve walked and talked with God. That is how it was. Then Adam and Eve used their God given freewill and were exiled from God's presence. But, praise be, we still have the freewill whereby we, as individuals can even today, enter into the presence of the Lord.

 

[Lafftur]

God set before HIS PEOPLE life and death and instructed them to choose life. Life in this scripture does not have reference to eternal life. If it was our choice to choose our eternal life, it would be eternal salvation by the works of man. It is talking about the same life that is referenced in the strait gate and narrow way, which is the abundant life here on earth if we follow God's commandments. When a disobedient child of God chooses death, it is not a literal death, but a separation from God that should be repented of to regain that fellowship back with God. This choice, whichever way we choose will not void our eternal salvation. The inspired scriptures are not written to the natural man telling him how to get eternally saved, but was written to God's children as instructions on how God wants them to live there lives here on earth.

ForestGreenCook, I respect your love for the scriptures and love for God.

My OP was offering a solution to the dilemma of how to explain predestination and free will in regards to an all knowing, all loving, all powerful God that is present everywhere seen and unseen.

Free will has to involve a choice that God has allowed us to make, otherwise there is no free will.

Predestination has to involve a pre-determined destination or outcome that was chosen and set in motion before the foundation of the world. Only God can predetermine something because only He is in TOTAL control. Thus, God exercised His free will choice when He chose to give us a free will choice between Life or Death even before He made the foundation of the world.

If I choose Life - it is a pathway that has a predetermined destination of Life with God.
If I choose Death - it is a pathway that has a predetermined destination of Death apart from God.

Have you ever considered how lonely God must be.......He can create anything and everything He wants or desires, yet having everything you want or desire is empty without love and someone to share it with - loving someone and them loving you back - an intimate close relationship.

God can desire love but cannot create it because if He creates people that love Him - it is manipulation and NOT love at all. He has to create us with the "capacity" to love and give us "free will" and time to make our choice. He wants us to choose to love Him and know Him.

By choosing to love God, I am choosing life with Him. Anything apart from God is death. Jesus said we are to "abide in Him" because apart from Him, we can do nothing.

 

[Nehemiah6]

How can this be about the perfection of the saints?

You have not quoted the appropriate Scriptures. See Romans 8:29,30.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yet the bible says whom God foreknew (his foreknowledge) he predestined.

Ya can't ignore that fact

True. The real issue is "FOR WHAT"? And the answer is "to be conformed to the image of His Son". Since Christ is perfect and we are imperfect, predestination is for the perfection of the saints at the Resurrection/Rapture.

1 JOHN 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yep he chose them, Based on His will.
What is his will?

That whoever sees the son and believes in him shall have eternal life, He Will raise on the last day, And he shall lose no one.

God chose to save people who said yes, and not save those who said no. Thats Gods right to do. Who are you you to say he has no right to do what he willed?

And who is going to say yes to him? Not the natural man that cannot discern spiritual things. Only those that God has regenerated.

 

[preacher4truth]

I've....share your thoughts...

Man isn't save via his "choosing', John 1:13.

Next...

 

[ForestGreenCook]

ForestGreenCook, I respect your love for the scriptures and love for God.

My OP was offering a solution to the dilemma of how to explain predestination and free will in regards to an all knowing, all loving, all powerful God that is present everywhere seen and unseen.

Free will has to involve a choice that God has allowed us to make, otherwise there is no free will.

Predestination has to involve a pre-determined destination or outcome that was chosen and set in motion before the foundation of the world. Only God can predetermine something because only He is in TOTAL control. Thus, God exercised His free will choice when He chose to give us a free will choice between Life or Death even before He made the foundation of the world.

If I choose Life - it is a pathway that has a predetermined destination of Life with God.
If I choose Death - it is a pathway that has a predetermined destination of Death apart from God.

Have you ever considered how lonely God must be.......He can create anything and everything He wants or desires, yet having everything you want or desire is empty without love and someone to share it with - loving someone and them loving you back - an intimate close relationship.

God can desire love but cannot create it because if He creates people that love Him - it is manipulation and NOT love at all. He has to create us with the "capacity" to love and give us "free will" and time to make our choice. He wants us to choose to love Him and know Him.

By choosing to love God, I am choosing life with Him. Anything apart from God is death. Jesus said we are to "abide in Him" because apart from Him, we can do nothing.

God has given us a free will as to how we want to live our lives here on earth, but our eternal destination is by God's choice and not man's, otherwise our eternal destination would be by the choice of man and by God's grace. We have the freedom to choose a life of serving God or a life of trying to enjoying the pleasures of the sins of the world. All of these choices are pertaining to our lives here on earth. Salvation means 'a deliverance" and we are delivered many times here in this life as we repent of the sins we commit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And who is going to say yes to him? Not the natural man that cannot discern spiritual things. Only those that God has regenerated.

So you deny what Jesus said, and Gods will.

And by the way, if your right, No one will get to heaven, Because God is incapable of bringing anyone to his will.

 

[Adstar]

Ps 53:2-3 - will tell you what God saw by his foreknowledge and it was that none would seek him and that none would do good, no, not one.

And that's why the Holy Spirit moves people and brings them conviction from the Word of God.. Some respond with contrition and accept the conviction and are saved.. Some resist the conviction and rebel against the Holy Spirit and are condemned.. Many are called but few are chosen.. God foreknows how each and every person will respond and He has foreknown it since the begging of creation..

Isaiah 57: KJV
15 "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

Acts 7: KJV
51 "¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

 

[ForestGreenCook]

ForestGreenCook, I respect your love for the scriptures and love for God.

My OP was offering a solution to the dilemma of how to explain predestination and free will in regards to an all knowing, all loving, all powerful God that is present everywhere seen and unseen.

Free will has to involve a choice that God has allowed us to make, otherwise there is no free will.

Predestination has to involve a pre-determined destination or outcome that was chosen and set in motion before the foundation of the world. Only God can predetermine something because only He is in TOTAL control. Thus, God exercised His free will choice when He chose to give us a free will choice between Life or Death even before He made the foundation of the world.

If I choose Life - it is a pathway that has a predetermined destination of Life with God.
If I choose Death - it is a pathway that has a predetermined destination of Death apart from God.

Have you ever considered how lonely God must be.......He can create anything and everything He wants or desires, yet having everything you want or desire is empty without love and someone to share it with - loving someone and them loving you back - an intimate close relationship.

God can desire love but cannot create it because if He creates people that love Him - it is manipulation and NOT love at all. He has to create us with the "capacity" to love and give us "free will" and time to make our choice. He wants us to choose to love Him and know Him.

By choosing to love God, I am choosing life with Him. Anything apart from God is death. Jesus said we are to "abide in Him" because apart from Him, we can do nothing.

I do commend you for your diligence in studying the word of God in search of the truth. Deut 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. This was Moses instructing God's people, Israel (Jacob), who God changed his name to be called Israel, Gen 32:28, whom God has blessed his offspring to be his elect people, Heb 11:12. These people that Moses was instructing were already regenerated children and not natural men who does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The life that was offered to God's children in Deut 30:19 was not eternal life, but that abundant life here on earth if we follow his commandments. If the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, could choose eternal life, it would be eternal salvation by the works of man. Because of what God saw by his foreknowledge (Ps 53:2-3) is why he choose an elect people (Eph 1:4) and had his Son to make them holy and without blame (Eph 1:4) , so that he would have someone to love him. We love him because he first loved us (1 John 4:19).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So you deny what Jesus said, and Gods will.

And by the way, if your right, No one will get to heaven, Because God is incapable of bringing anyone to his will.

(God is incapable of bringing anyone to his will) Can you give me a scripture that says that? Dan 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

(God is incapable of bringing anyone to his will) Can you give me a scripture that says that? Dan 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

God did not say it, You are.

God said it is his will that whoever believes will have eternal life. Live forever, be raised on the last day And not be lost.

You deny this, saying no one can believe.

Ie, God is incapable of helping a person come to faith. So they can beieve and have eternal life.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And that's why the Holy Spirit moves people and brings them conviction from the Word of God.. Some respond with contrition and accept the conviction and are saved.. Some resist the conviction and rebel against the Holy Spirit and are condemned.. Many are called but few are chosen.. God foreknows how each and every person will respond and He has foreknown it since the begging of creation..

Isaiah 57: KJV
15 "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

Acts 7: KJV
51 "¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

The reason that God, by his foreknowledge, saw that no one would seek him, is because when we are born into this world, we are all spiritually dead and will stay that way until God regenerates us and gives us the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.(Eph 2:5) The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can not be convicted by the spiritual word of God because he cannot discern it and thinks that it is foolishness. The natural man cannot have a contrite and humble spirit.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God did not say it, You are.

God said it is his will that whoever believes will have eternal life. Live forever, be raised on the last day And not be lost.

You deny this, saying no one can believe.

Ie, God is incapable of helping a person come to faith. So they can beieve and have eternal life.

You, again, are accusing me of a false statement that I did not make. I said that the natural man, described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot believe in spiritual things. I did say that the regenerated man (Eph 2:5) can believe. You know that I have told you this before, I guess you must have forgotten.

 

[Lafftur]

I do commend you for your diligence in studying the word of God in search of the truth. Deut 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. This was Moses instructing God's people, Israel (Jacob), who God changed his name to be called Israel, Gen 32:28, whom God has blessed his offspring to be his elect people, Heb 11:12. These people that Moses was instructing were already regenerated children and not natural men who does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The life that was offered to God's children in Deut 30:19 was not eternal life, but that abundant life here on earth if we follow his commandments. If the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, could choose eternal life, it would be eternal salvation by the works of man. Because of what God saw by his foreknowledge (Ps 53:2-3) is why he choose an elect people (Eph 1:4) and had his Son to make them holy and without blame (Eph 1:4) , so that he would have someone to love him. We love him because he first loved us (1 John 4:19).

ForestGreenCook, LOL! I don't "diligently" study the Word of God............I fervently pursue and passionately ravish it as tremendously and extraordinary valuable hidden treasure! The Holy Spirit and I have quite a lot of fun together! LOL!

I chose the Pathway of Life when I acknowledged my sin and received the Blood of The Lamb of God which is Yeshua/Jesus for the forgiveness of my sins which freed me from the Curse of the Law (which is the Pathway of Death) and I received the Bread of Life that came down from Heaven which is the Lord's Righteousness (human fulfillment of the Law).

I am so enjoying the Pathway of Life which is Jesus Christ (The Way, The Truth and The Life). ALL (Jew or Gentile) that are "in Christ" on the Pathway of Life have a destiny that is predetermined and predestined to Eternal Life with God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit.

There are two paths which are Life and Death. We have free will to choose which path we want. Both paths have predetermined destinations - one leads to life and one leads to death. I choose Life!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You, again, are accusing me of a false statement that I did not make. I said that the natural man, described in 1 Cor 2:14, cannot believe in spiritual things. I did say that the regenerated man (Eph 2:5) can believe. You know that I have told you this before, I guess you must have forgotten.

And your WRONG

Jesus said it is Gods will that whoever believes. Not whoever he regenerates. Those are YOUR WORDS

You keep saying that this is not true.

So either stand by your position, or continue to prove me right.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The reason that God, by his foreknowledge, saw that no one would seek him, is because when we are born into this world, we are all spiritually dead and will stay that way until God regenerates us and gives us the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.(Eph 2:5) The natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can not be convicted by the spiritual word of God because he cannot discern it and thinks that it is foolishness. The natural man cannot have a contrite and humble spirit.

God actually saw who would follow his will and recieve his gift of salvatipn. And CHOSE to save these people before the foundation of the world.

God does according to his will. His will is all who believe will never perish, Live forever. Has eternal life. And will never be lost (john 6)