Actually, as a starting point, and to assist with our communicating, I thought it would be a good idea to establish brief basic definitions of what you specifically mean by "Israel"; that is, for biblical prophecy sake, when/how did the Jews formally become the nation of Israel? Otherwise, we could (and probably do) have different fundamental perceptions of what Israel represents, and therefore, could lead to talking past each other. Until that anchor point is established, effective communications would probably be difficult. Hope that makes sense - if not I'll try to clarify
predestination vs freewill
- Thread starter Ivon
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You are wrongly interpreting the scriptures to say that they teach that a person can believe in the things of the Spirit before they have already been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit..
God's "sheep" mentioned in the scriptures denotes that they are God's children that have been born again, and only his sheep can hear (believe) his voice. That is why it says "it is the work of God that you believe", not mankind's works to believe.
God's "sheep" mentioned in the scriptures denotes that they are God's children that have been born again, and only his sheep can hear (believe) his voice. That is why it says "it is the work of God that you believe", not mankind's works to believe.
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It makes perfect sense. I was thinking along the same lines. Let me therefore, ask a few questions.
1) Do you believe the Church is the New Israel? Commonly taught today.
2) Do you believe in a real, physical establishment of the Millennial Kingdom?
3) Do you consider yourself an A-Millennialist or are you a Tribulation Millennialist in your Eschatology?
4) Where the promises to Israel - real or spiritualized?
1) Do you believe the Church is the New Israel? Commonly taught today.
2) Do you believe in a real, physical establishment of the Millennial Kingdom?
3) Do you consider yourself an A-Millennialist or are you a Tribulation Millennialist in your Eschatology?
4) Where the promises to Israel - real or spiritualized?
Additionally - I am going to add the following, as to what I believe is taught in Scripture. Theology and Eschatology in it's simplest outline.
God knowing, even before He created, man would fall in transgression and sin, elected some to Redemption and planned the Redemptive work to restore the Elect. The primary purpose of this, was to the Glory of Himself. The Elect are a love gift from the Father to the Son. We have been shown mercy because of the Father desire to give this gift to His Son. Faithful worshippers, who will love Him forever and ever.
Incorporated in this mercy, is a full demonstration to all observers, both Angels and Humans, both fallen or redeemed, the power of Sin. This "power of Sin", is and will be, demonstrated over three dispensations of time and in three different ways.
First: FROM ADAM TO THE LAW. Sin and it's effect without the Law. Man does what is right in His own eyes. As such, man was given the right to freely govern himself. This was such a dismal failure - God judged and killed off the whole of humanity, except for His elected eight.
Second: FROM THE LAW TO THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM. Sin and it's effects with the Law. Man has now been given God's highest moral standard, the Ten Commandments. Jesus Christ summed them up into Two Commandments. Even with this Law in place, man continued to sin greatly and Transgress the principle of the Law. Even though man had this knowledge, it had NO impact on his sinful nature. It too, will be a dismal failure and God will Judge humanity for their failure.
Third: FROM THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM TO ETERNITY. Sin and it's effect with the Law Giver. The Millennial Kingdom, will start with man set free from the power of sin. Only God's elect will enter it. National Israel is restored and Jerusalem is once again the Holy City. The nations are ruled over by Jesus Christ, the King of kings, the Law Giver, with a rod of iron, who now sits on the Throne of David. The earth itself made whole again and the rains come as needed. No more pestilence or disease. If a man die, he is very old. People marry, have children and enjoy this abundant life. But sin is still present, thus the need for the "rod of Iron". For the children born at this time, can still be tempted by sin. If one sins, the judgement is swift and immediate. Then, at the end of the Millennium, the Devil will be loosed for a short season. He will go and tempt mankind and many will follow him and attempt to wage war on Christ and the Saints, residing in the Holy City. Mankind's final and worst failure. Finally, the Lord instantly Judges those who follow the Devil with fire. The Devil and his fallen angels are cast into the lake of fire, along with Death and Sin is purged forever. The Millennial Kingdom slides into Eternity. The Father's redemptive plan fully realized.
In this way, God eliminates all excuse for the sins of the Devil, his angels and mankind. The Elect Angels look on with amazement. Mankind has existed without Law, with Law and with the Law Giver - yet nothing changes. When given the opportunity, mankind chooses darkness over light and sin over holiness.
Give the third dispensation a great deal of thought. Mankind, living with Jesus Christ physically on the Earth and being blessed in accountable ways, when given the chance, will still rather follow another. This seems almost unimaginable and shocking. Thus, in this way, God has shown all observers, the true power of the Sin principle. The true darkness that resides within it. The true NEED for His Mercy and Election, for without it, no flesh would have ever been saved. Glory to Our God and to the Lamb, who is blessed forever and ever.
God knowing, even before He created, man would fall in transgression and sin, elected some to Redemption and planned the Redemptive work to restore the Elect. The primary purpose of this, was to the Glory of Himself. The Elect are a love gift from the Father to the Son. We have been shown mercy because of the Father desire to give this gift to His Son. Faithful worshippers, who will love Him forever and ever.
Incorporated in this mercy, is a full demonstration to all observers, both Angels and Humans, both fallen or redeemed, the power of Sin. This "power of Sin", is and will be, demonstrated over three dispensations of time and in three different ways.
First: FROM ADAM TO THE LAW. Sin and it's effect without the Law. Man does what is right in His own eyes. As such, man was given the right to freely govern himself. This was such a dismal failure - God judged and killed off the whole of humanity, except for His elected eight.
Second: FROM THE LAW TO THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM. Sin and it's effects with the Law. Man has now been given God's highest moral standard, the Ten Commandments. Jesus Christ summed them up into Two Commandments. Even with this Law in place, man continued to sin greatly and Transgress the principle of the Law. Even though man had this knowledge, it had NO impact on his sinful nature. It too, will be a dismal failure and God will Judge humanity for their failure.
Third: FROM THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM TO ETERNITY. Sin and it's effect with the Law Giver. The Millennial Kingdom, will start with man set free from the power of sin. Only God's elect will enter it. National Israel is restored and Jerusalem is once again the Holy City. The nations are ruled over by Jesus Christ, the King of kings, the Law Giver, with a rod of iron, who now sits on the Throne of David. The earth itself made whole again and the rains come as needed. No more pestilence or disease. If a man die, he is very old. People marry, have children and enjoy this abundant life. But sin is still present, thus the need for the "rod of Iron". For the children born at this time, can still be tempted by sin. If one sins, the judgement is swift and immediate. Then, at the end of the Millennium, the Devil will be loosed for a short season. He will go and tempt mankind and many will follow him and attempt to wage war on Christ and the Saints, residing in the Holy City. Mankind's final and worst failure. Finally, the Lord instantly Judges those who follow the Devil with fire. The Devil and his fallen angels are cast into the lake of fire, along with Death and Sin is purged forever. The Millennial Kingdom slides into Eternity. The Father's redemptive plan fully realized.
In this way, God eliminates all excuse for the sins of the Devil, his angels and mankind. The Elect Angels look on with amazement. Mankind has existed without Law, with Law and with the Law Giver - yet nothing changes. When given the opportunity, mankind chooses darkness over light and sin over holiness.
Give the third dispensation a great deal of thought. Mankind, living with Jesus Christ physically on the Earth and being blessed in accountable ways, when given the chance, will still rather follow another. This seems almost unimaginable and shocking. Thus, in this way, God has shown all observers, the true power of the Sin principle. The true darkness that resides within it. The true NEED for His Mercy and Election, for without it, no flesh would have ever been saved. Glory to Our God and to the Lamb, who is blessed forever and ever.
God calls/draws all people Joh 12:32 but only those that respond in faith will be saved Eph 1:13. That is conditional salvation. Joh 3:18 So to answer your question no, not everyone will be saved even though God would like all to come to a saving knowledge and be saved. 1Ti 2:3-4
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As to John 12:32 - the Greek word translated "all" (πρὸς), in this passage can have many deferent meanings throughout Scripture. It can mean: All, Any, Every kind and The whole of something. In this case it is the "whole of something", that "whole" is God's Elect. Don't stop reading with 12:32, in the same conversation, we have this stated by the Lord:
John 12:35 Jesus therefore said unto them, Yet a little while is the light among you. Walk while ye have the light, that darkness overtake you not: and he that walks in the darkness does not know where he is going.
And:
John 12:39 For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again,
John 12:40 He (God) hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them.
As to Ephesians 1:13 - this cannot be understood apart from the context of what proceeded it, in Eph. 1:4-12. Don't use verses out of context. The key points expressed before Eph. 1_13, are:
1) Blessed "us" with every blessing in Christ. (v.3)
2) We were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. (v.4)
3) He foreordained "us" as adopted sons by the good pleasure of His will. (v.5)
4) We are to the praise of His Glory because of His Grace, which He freely gave to "us" in the Beloved. (v.6)
5) To whom "we" have redemption through His blood, forgiveness, through His Grace - He made this abundant to "us" in wisdom. (v.7,8)
6) Making known to "us" the mystery and good pleasure of His will which He purposed in Christ. (v.9)
7) To sum up all things in Christ, in the Heavens and upon the earth, in Him. (v.10)
8) To the end that:
Eph 1:11-12 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:
"IN" Christ is used eight times between verses 3-13. Everything is "in" Christ. Including the ones chosen to believe. They were placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. Serious damage must be done to these verses to see it any other way. This letter was written to the Church, thus to believers. This is why so many pronouns are used like: US and WE, obviously a specific group of people.
As to 1 Tim. 2:3-4 - You once again yanked these verses out of context. The context is from verse 1 through 8. The subject is prayer and thanksgiving for those in positions of Governmental power. (v.1&2). For the express purpose of believers living a peaceful and quite life. Verse 3 says this is good and acceptable in the sight of God. This context is book ended with:
1Ti 2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray in every place, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and disputing.
The "all" in verses 1, 4 and 6, is not all without exception; this would never hold up and harmonize with all of Scripture but is understood as "all manner" of men. Therefore in verse 1 - Pray for all manner of men, (v.2), Kings, Rulers, those who have authority. In verse 4 - "all manner" of men will be saved. Then verse 6 - Christ gave himself as a ransom for "all manner" of men. Yes for Kings and the lowliest of men.
John 12:35 Jesus therefore said unto them, Yet a little while is the light among you. Walk while ye have the light, that darkness overtake you not: and he that walks in the darkness does not know where he is going.
And:
John 12:39 For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again,
John 12:40 He (God) hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them.
As to Ephesians 1:13 - this cannot be understood apart from the context of what proceeded it, in Eph. 1:4-12. Don't use verses out of context. The key points expressed before Eph. 1_13, are:
1) Blessed "us" with every blessing in Christ. (v.3)
2) We were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. (v.4)
3) He foreordained "us" as adopted sons by the good pleasure of His will. (v.5)
4) We are to the praise of His Glory because of His Grace, which He freely gave to "us" in the Beloved. (v.6)
5) To whom "we" have redemption through His blood, forgiveness, through His Grace - He made this abundant to "us" in wisdom. (v.7,8)
6) Making known to "us" the mystery and good pleasure of His will which He purposed in Christ. (v.9)
7) To sum up all things in Christ, in the Heavens and upon the earth, in Him. (v.10)
8) To the end that:
Eph 1:11-12 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:
"IN" Christ is used eight times between verses 3-13. Everything is "in" Christ. Including the ones chosen to believe. They were placed in Christ before the foundation of the world. Serious damage must be done to these verses to see it any other way. This letter was written to the Church, thus to believers. This is why so many pronouns are used like: US and WE, obviously a specific group of people.
As to 1 Tim. 2:3-4 - You once again yanked these verses out of context. The context is from verse 1 through 8. The subject is prayer and thanksgiving for those in positions of Governmental power. (v.1&2). For the express purpose of believers living a peaceful and quite life. Verse 3 says this is good and acceptable in the sight of God. This context is book ended with:
1Ti 2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray in every place, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and disputing.
The "all" in verses 1, 4 and 6, is not all without exception; this would never hold up and harmonize with all of Scripture but is understood as "all manner" of men. Therefore in verse 1 - Pray for all manner of men, (v.2), Kings, Rulers, those who have authority. In verse 4 - "all manner" of men will be saved. Then verse 6 - Christ gave himself as a ransom for "all manner" of men. Yes for Kings and the lowliest of men.
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Again, to some degree my answer would depend upon how you define Israel but generally speaking,
regarding the earthly Israel, real ( but also that God has already satisfied all of His promises to them - see below); to spiritual Israel (being all those elected/saved), some realized, some not yet.
[1Ki 8:56 KJV]
56 Blessed [be] the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.
[Jos 23:14 KJV]
14 And, behold, this day I [am] going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, [and] not one thing hath failed thereof.
regarding the earthly Israel, real ( but also that God has already satisfied all of His promises to them - see below); to spiritual Israel (being all those elected/saved), some realized, some not yet.
[1Ki 8:56 KJV]
56 Blessed [be] the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.
[Jos 23:14 KJV]
14 And, behold, this day I [am] going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, [and] not one thing hath failed thereof.
“As to John 12:32 - the Greek word translated "all" (πρὸς), in this passage can have many different meanings throughout Scripture.”
I agree that the Greek word ALL {πάς} G3956 can be translated a number of ways but and this is critical for you to understand it can not be translated as ELECT {ἐκλεκτός} G1588. That only happens in your version of theology. You have to read that into the text.
Jesus said that if He was lifted up He would draw G1670 ALL PEOPLE to Himself. Are you now saying that the Holy Spirit needs your help to get the words right? Your saying that God did not know the difference between ALL and ELECT.
Joh 12:35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.
Here we have Jesus saying that the light {Christ} would be among them for a bit more time.
Joh 12:36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light." These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
Now Christ is telling them that they should believe {that’s present tense} and why, so they can be saved. If they wanted to be part of the elect than they had to trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. In other words why wait do it now.
Joh 12:37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
Yet even now the Jews did not believe, they did not believe before and they still refused to believe.
Joh 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"
Joh 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
Joh 12:40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
God’s punishing of persistent sin by hardening are common (Exo 9:12; Rom 1:24, Rom 1:26, Rom 1:28; 2Th 2:8-12). But this does not help you as has been shown above. Christ is drawing all people and those that respond will be saved but not all will respond will they.
I agree with you we are chosen “IN CHRIST” but you leave out one critical part, why are we chosen in Christ? That’s right there in Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, {when} after you heard the word of truth, {what} the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, {then} having believed, you were sealed {how} with the Holy Spirit of promise,
I agree that it refers to a specific group, those that believe. They were not chosen to believe, they are chosen because they do believe. Do you really think that God does not know all those that will trust in His son? Once again you have read into the text to get what you want.
What did I say here in my post “not everyone will be saved even though God would like all to come to a saving knowledge and be saved. 1Ti 2:3-4”
I fail to see what your point is with regard to my comment. I said God would like “all to come to a saving knowledge and be saved” and you say “Christ gave himself as a ransom for "all manner" of men.” So tell me what is the difference here, does not all include your all manner. God is not making a distinction here your theology does. Why do you not just trust what the bible says instead of trying to improve on what God has said.
What I have seen here is that you want to change the text or misread it so that you can justify your view. Well you do that but I will just trust what the Holy Spirit inspired without the “corrections”.
"Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
[Act 2:37 KJV]
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
No, you didn't. Because they were able to hear and respond when others didn't and couldn't, that tells us they already had the Holy Spirit. The hearing in view could only be given by the Holy Spirit - they first needed to receive spiritual ears to hear before being able to hear
[Act 2:39 KJV] 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[Act 2:41 KJV]
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
[Act 7:51 KJV]
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
Jhn 15:26 KJV] 26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
[1Co 12:8 KJV]
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[Act 2:37 KJV]
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
No, you didn't. Because they were able to hear and respond when others didn't and couldn't, that tells us they already had the Holy Spirit. The hearing in view could only be given by the Holy Spirit - they first needed to receive spiritual ears to hear before being able to hear
[Act 2:39 KJV] 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[Act 2:41 KJV]
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
[Act 7:51 KJV]
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
Jhn 15:26 KJV] 26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
[1Co 12:8 KJV]
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
Well there is so much one could discuss here, it is hard to determine a starting point.
If you consider yourself an A-Millennialist or something similar, this places us on diametrically opposed ends of the Eschatological spectrum. I believe the Scriptures teach, a Pre-Tribulation Rapture and a physical establishment of the Kingdom of Israel.
You gave me a few verses but what I want you to see in them, is this. 1 Ki. 8:56 and Jos. 23:14 - cannot represent the fulfilment of God's promises to Israel because the things mentioned therein, have not been permanently fulfilled. In 1 Kings, the "rest" mentioned here is not a permanent "rest" - Israel today is not at peace nor can she rest. The "rest" Israel is looking for, she has not yet found.
Now let's look at some verses that are related to the "restoration" of the Nation of Israel:
In Isaiah, the whole of chapter 60, is a picture of Israel's restoration. In verses 2-20, we have the fallen state of the Nation. It has become like Sodom and Gomorrah. Jehovah pays no attention to their sacrifices or their prayers. However, within this dark image of Israel (Judah), there are promises to them. There is a remnant - V.9 - and if it were not for this remnant, the whole of the nation would be lost. Hope is given in V.18 - the promise to turn their scarlet, blood covered, robes - into that of white.
In Vs. 21-23 - we have the state of the Holy City, Jerusalem.
In Vs. 24-31 - the completed restoration of Israel and Jerusalem.
How the Lord is going to accomplish this, is spelled out in Ezekiel chapter 37. The key verses are 11-14:
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.
This the present state of Israel. They are dried bones. Nothing but corpses before the Lord. Their hope seemingly cut off according to those who say these things.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy, and say unto them, Thus says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O my people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
He will gather them into the promised land - Israel. This reminds us of: Blessed is he that has part in the first resurrection.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, O my people.
The power of Jehovah demonstrated.
Eze 37:14 And I will put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land: and ye shall know that I, Jehovah, have spoken it and performed it, says Jehovah.
In the same manner that He has done for those who make up the Church. They will possess the Indwelling Spirit. Jehovah will place them in their own land. This cannot be equated to the Church because the promise to the Church is not Land. Our inheritance is in Jesus Christ - not in land. This is foreshadowed in the promise given to the Levites: Num_1:49 Only the tribe of Levi thou shall not number, neither shalt thou take the sum of them among the children of Israel; And: Num_3:12 And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the first-born that opens the womb among the children of Israel; and the Levites shall be mine: One cannot say that only the Levites belonged to the Lord. Just as one cannot say only the Church belongs to the Lord. He has elected individuals in both, the Levites and the tribes of Israel. So too, He has elected individuals in the Church and Israel.
In these verses, we have the restoration promise to Israel also:
Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joel 3:2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will execute judgment upon them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations: and they have parted my land,
This gathering of ALL nations and judgement upon them is prophetical, it has never taken place in history. It does however, harmonize with the battle of Armageddon. The lost Sheep of Israel, are the ones who have been scattered abroad into all nations. This again does not fit the Church.
Then we have to take into consideration what the Prophet Daniel said in chapter 9 - verses 24-27. This Prophecy is to national Israel. The Church is not even in view here:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
This verse, gives us the whole of the Lord's work towards national Israel. All of these things mentioned here, find there fulfillment after the times of the Great Tribulation and the restoration of the Kingdom.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
The time period here, goes from the moment the order goes out to rebuild the Temple until the arrival of Jesus Christ, in His first advent.
Dan 9:26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
Jesus Christ, the anointed one of God, is cutoff. Israel has rejected the Messiah and puts Him to death. The ramifications of this, is God setting aside of Israel for their Sin. Cutting off their useless sacrifices and worship around 70 AD. when God has Titus and his army destroy the Temple and the sack Jerusalem. Israel loses it's homeland and is scattered into the nations.
Dan 9:27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that makes desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.
This verse deals with the time of the Great tribulation. Remember, nothing was said about a "time gap" between V.26 and V.27 - Christ would be building His Church. Let's break this verse down slowly:
Highlighted in green - A peace treaty, involving many nations will be signed by Israel. They will rejoice, saying peace, peace when there is no peace. At no time would it be said, that the Church makes or participates in a covenant for seven years.
Highlighted in blue - Three and a half years into this fake peace, the Anti-Christ will manifest himself. He will cause the sacrifices and worship in the new Temple, which has been built, to cease. He will set himself up in the Temple as a god. He will make the Holy City desolate and useless.
Highlighted in purple - During this desolation, God will begin pouring out wrath upon the world, even unto the end of the Tribulation time.
Please read Zechariah chapter 12 also.
Again, the Church is not Israel and Israel is not the Church. I will stop here. Enjoy your day.
If you consider yourself an A-Millennialist or something similar, this places us on diametrically opposed ends of the Eschatological spectrum. I believe the Scriptures teach, a Pre-Tribulation Rapture and a physical establishment of the Kingdom of Israel.
You gave me a few verses but what I want you to see in them, is this. 1 Ki. 8:56 and Jos. 23:14 - cannot represent the fulfilment of God's promises to Israel because the things mentioned therein, have not been permanently fulfilled. In 1 Kings, the "rest" mentioned here is not a permanent "rest" - Israel today is not at peace nor can she rest. The "rest" Israel is looking for, she has not yet found.
Now let's look at some verses that are related to the "restoration" of the Nation of Israel:
In Isaiah, the whole of chapter 60, is a picture of Israel's restoration. In verses 2-20, we have the fallen state of the Nation. It has become like Sodom and Gomorrah. Jehovah pays no attention to their sacrifices or their prayers. However, within this dark image of Israel (Judah), there are promises to them. There is a remnant - V.9 - and if it were not for this remnant, the whole of the nation would be lost. Hope is given in V.18 - the promise to turn their scarlet, blood covered, robes - into that of white.
In Vs. 21-23 - we have the state of the Holy City, Jerusalem.
In Vs. 24-31 - the completed restoration of Israel and Jerusalem.
How the Lord is going to accomplish this, is spelled out in Ezekiel chapter 37. The key verses are 11-14:
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.
This the present state of Israel. They are dried bones. Nothing but corpses before the Lord. Their hope seemingly cut off according to those who say these things.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy, and say unto them, Thus says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O my people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
He will gather them into the promised land - Israel. This reminds us of: Blessed is he that has part in the first resurrection.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, O my people.
The power of Jehovah demonstrated.
Eze 37:14 And I will put my Spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I will place you in your own land: and ye shall know that I, Jehovah, have spoken it and performed it, says Jehovah.
In the same manner that He has done for those who make up the Church. They will possess the Indwelling Spirit. Jehovah will place them in their own land. This cannot be equated to the Church because the promise to the Church is not Land. Our inheritance is in Jesus Christ - not in land. This is foreshadowed in the promise given to the Levites: Num_1:49 Only the tribe of Levi thou shall not number, neither shalt thou take the sum of them among the children of Israel; And: Num_3:12 And I, behold, I have taken the Levites from among the children of Israel instead of all the first-born that opens the womb among the children of Israel; and the Levites shall be mine: One cannot say that only the Levites belonged to the Lord. Just as one cannot say only the Church belongs to the Lord. He has elected individuals in both, the Levites and the tribes of Israel. So too, He has elected individuals in the Church and Israel.
In these verses, we have the restoration promise to Israel also:
Joel 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring back the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joel 3:2 I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will execute judgment upon them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations: and they have parted my land,
This gathering of ALL nations and judgement upon them is prophetical, it has never taken place in history. It does however, harmonize with the battle of Armageddon. The lost Sheep of Israel, are the ones who have been scattered abroad into all nations. This again does not fit the Church.
Then we have to take into consideration what the Prophet Daniel said in chapter 9 - verses 24-27. This Prophecy is to national Israel. The Church is not even in view here:
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
This verse, gives us the whole of the Lord's work towards national Israel. All of these things mentioned here, find there fulfillment after the times of the Great Tribulation and the restoration of the Kingdom.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
The time period here, goes from the moment the order goes out to rebuild the Temple until the arrival of Jesus Christ, in His first advent.
Dan 9:26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
Jesus Christ, the anointed one of God, is cutoff. Israel has rejected the Messiah and puts Him to death. The ramifications of this, is God setting aside of Israel for their Sin. Cutting off their useless sacrifices and worship around 70 AD. when God has Titus and his army destroy the Temple and the sack Jerusalem. Israel loses it's homeland and is scattered into the nations.
Dan 9:27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that makes desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.
This verse deals with the time of the Great tribulation. Remember, nothing was said about a "time gap" between V.26 and V.27 - Christ would be building His Church. Let's break this verse down slowly:
Highlighted in green - A peace treaty, involving many nations will be signed by Israel. They will rejoice, saying peace, peace when there is no peace. At no time would it be said, that the Church makes or participates in a covenant for seven years.
Highlighted in blue - Three and a half years into this fake peace, the Anti-Christ will manifest himself. He will cause the sacrifices and worship in the new Temple, which has been built, to cease. He will set himself up in the Temple as a god. He will make the Holy City desolate and useless.
Highlighted in purple - During this desolation, God will begin pouring out wrath upon the world, even unto the end of the Tribulation time.
Please read Zechariah chapter 12 also.
Again, the Church is not Israel and Israel is not the Church. I will stop here. Enjoy your day.
You did not receive the points that I was making because your Soteriological views blind you. I do appreciate a thought out response. Thank you for that.
However, in the summation of what you have said: You make God beholding to your choice and thus attempt to nullify the Scriptural concept of what Election truly is. Scripture says, God chose out of the freedom and good pleasure of His will. Not yours.
God has bestowed Mercy and Compassion out of His Grace freely, not out of or because of your choice. Foreknowledge, is not foreseeing. You were not elected because God foresaw you making a choice. If He had meant that, He would have used the word "foresaw". This Heresy, is propagated by those who believe they have a Free determinate will. They have the right to choose, while denying their fallen and darkened nature. They give lip service to God's Sovereignty but attempt to deny He has made a Sovereign choice. Their speech is confused and comes out of both sides of their mouth.
Foreknowledge, is an intimate relationship with the Elect from before the foundation of the world. It is an eternal relationship.
Plainly stated then, by the other side, Salvation is granted by the Sovereign act of Election. God chose before any were born and before any could do right or wrong. Salvation is not by MERIT - it is called UNMERITED Grace. Quit trying to make it about yourselves.
However, in the summation of what you have said: You make God beholding to your choice and thus attempt to nullify the Scriptural concept of what Election truly is. Scripture says, God chose out of the freedom and good pleasure of His will. Not yours.
God has bestowed Mercy and Compassion out of His Grace freely, not out of or because of your choice. Foreknowledge, is not foreseeing. You were not elected because God foresaw you making a choice. If He had meant that, He would have used the word "foresaw". This Heresy, is propagated by those who believe they have a Free determinate will. They have the right to choose, while denying their fallen and darkened nature. They give lip service to God's Sovereignty but attempt to deny He has made a Sovereign choice. Their speech is confused and comes out of both sides of their mouth.
Foreknowledge, is an intimate relationship with the Elect from before the foundation of the world. It is an eternal relationship.
Plainly stated then, by the other side, Salvation is granted by the Sovereign act of Election. God chose before any were born and before any could do right or wrong. Salvation is not by MERIT - it is called UNMERITED Grace. Quit trying to make it about yourselves.
It cannot be before the New Birth because you are still in darkness. You still possess the old nature. Scripture clearly says your nature must be changed before you can hear and understand the Gospel message. Please read post #254 for more clarification. The Gospel message is received by those who have been Born Again.
Acts_13:48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
The Gentiles, by the fact that they heard, prove they had experienced the New Birth and possessed "hearing" ears. The ones that had experienced the new birth are equal to the number that were "ordained to eternal life".
The "gift" of the Spirit are not the same thing as the New Birth. The "gift" of the Spirit, are the various abilities given by the Spirit. The abilities they had just witnessed, associated with Pentecost. Each person, in Christ, has various gifts given to them by the Spirit. However, to do what Peter said, Repent and be Baptized, would be an indication they were already Born Again. Their nature changed - these born anew believers could receive the message and repent of their past way of life.
Acts_13:48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
The Gentiles, by the fact that they heard, prove they had experienced the New Birth and possessed "hearing" ears. The ones that had experienced the new birth are equal to the number that were "ordained to eternal life".
The "gift" of the Spirit are not the same thing as the New Birth. The "gift" of the Spirit, are the various abilities given by the Spirit. The abilities they had just witnessed, associated with Pentecost. Each person, in Christ, has various gifts given to them by the Spirit. However, to do what Peter said, Repent and be Baptized, would be an indication they were already Born Again. Their nature changed - these born anew believers could receive the message and repent of their past way of life.
“You did not receive the points that I was making because your Soteriological views blind you.”
It is not my Soteriological view it is the bible. Your calvinist view requires that man can not make any choices that would lead to faith. And if I am reading you right you think that faith is a work that has merit. But how do you respond to these verses:
Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Do you see the contrast here, faith is not work, is not merit.
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Can it be any clearer faith is not a work but is required for us to be justified/saved.
I could go on but these should be sufficient to show that faith is required and it is not a work.
You said that I make God beholding to my choices but how can that be since God is the one that requires me to have faith in Christ Jesus so that we can be justified. {see above}
“God chose out of the freedom and good pleasure of His will.” I agree there is no way that we could make God choose us but God did set a requirement, faith, as I have shown you already.
Look at Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Believes is in the present active voice. That means that the subject (in this case Whoever) is the one performing the action(in this case believing) and that they are doing it now.
So the question is why are they doing it now? For that we can look to Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, {when} after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
So you see that salvation is available to all Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
And why do we know that it is available to all:
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now this is the point you tried to make that I find the strangest. Are you saying that God, who is Omniscient, could not in His foreknowledge know those that would trust in His son for salvation? That is quite a leap for you to make. Then you really go outside the lines when you call free will a Heresy. I will just put that down to you being confused by your theology.
With that said lets look at your theology. When you use the word Sovereign what you mean is divine causal determinism. Nothing happens outside of Gods’ direct control, He has decreed all things that happen.
“ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass” LBCF and the WCF
So if God has determined all that happens that means all things good or bad, God glorifying or God hating. How does that work? Also all those that are condemned to hell actually do have an excuse, they are there because God chose them to be there. They had no chance to believe and be saved, remember your irresistible grace and limited atonement are only for your so called elect.
Take the time to think through your “doctrines of grace” and see where they lead. You may find that the word Heresy better applies to your view than to those that do not hold to your view.
If you are still reading by this time then here is a verse that I would like you to explain from your theological view. 1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
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The promises made to earthly Israel by God not only contained blessings but also curses depending upon Israel's satisfying of God's commandments and laws, which, Israel failed to achieve. Consequently, God divorced them so all that remained were the curses. remained. Therefore, any rest mentioned unto the earthly Israel became null and void and was transferred to spiritual Israel-- the Israel of the elect.
[Deu 11:26-28 KJV]
26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
[Dan 9:11 KJV]
11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
[Heb 4:5-6, 8-9 KJV]
5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: ...
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
No rest for earthly Israel as we are informed in Heb 4:8.
[1Pe 1:1-2 KJV]
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Those saved have become the "people of God", no longer are the earthly Jews
I believe that it does fit the Church. Please observe 2 Pe 2:9 - 10 previous
Yes, it is the Church that is in view, although it has become the new Jerusalem
[Rev 21:1-3 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
[1Pe 2:10 KJV] 10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
[Rev 21:6 KJV]
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
In what verses do you find that Israel (or any other nation for that matter) will sign a peace treaty ? I might have missed it
but could not find any such verses.
[Deu 11:26-28 KJV]
26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
[Dan 9:11 KJV]
11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
[Heb 4:5-6, 8-9 KJV]
5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: ...
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
No rest for earthly Israel as we are informed in Heb 4:8.
[1Pe 1:1-2 KJV]
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Those saved have become the "people of God", no longer are the earthly Jews
I believe that it does fit the Church. Please observe 2 Pe 2:9 - 10 previous
Yes, it is the Church that is in view, although it has become the new Jerusalem
[Rev 21:1-3 KJV]
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
[1Pe 2:10 KJV] 10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
[Rev 21:6 KJV]
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
In what verses do you find that Israel (or any other nation for that matter) will sign a peace treaty ? I might have missed it
but could not find any such verses.
So according to your view the people are saved before they even hear the gospel message. So how does that work since that is not what the bible save is it.
That does bring up a question or two. 1} Why even have a gospel message?
2} Why did Christ Jesus even have to go to the cross?
Your theology does lead to some very strange places.
But you also run up against scripture like Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, or here we see Paul once again Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
So by Calvinist logic
the person is saved before they call and
they call before they believe and
they believe before they hear the gospel and
they hear the gospel before it is presented and
the preacher presents the gospel before he is sent.
But note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.
Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation. Rom_10:14-15
That does bring up a question or two. 1} Why even have a gospel message?
2} Why did Christ Jesus even have to go to the cross?
Your theology does lead to some very strange places.
But you also run up against scripture like Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, or here we see Paul once again Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
So by Calvinist logic
the person is saved before they call and
they call before they believe and
they believe before they hear the gospel and
they hear the gospel before it is presented and
the preacher presents the gospel before he is sent.
But note the order Paul describes here.
1) The saved are those who call on the name of the Lord.
2) They call because they believe.
3) They believe because they heard.
4) They heard because a preacher shared the Gospel.
Gospel → Hearing → Believing → Calling → Salvation. Rom_10:14-15