Presuming on the Blood

[Trulyfree]

A tension I am having problems with in Scripture, and maybe you all can lend some light on this, is that Jesus paid it all for our sins once for all time (Hebrews Chapter Nine) and so faith in Him ensures our salvation (Romans 10:9-10, Philippians 3:9, John 3:16, John 6:40, Acts 15:5-11). However, there are all these passages in the New Testament about if you practice sin, and it gives the lists numerous times (Revelation 21:8 is an example) that says if you keep practicing those sins you will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is puzzling, because it places a Christian in a state of being like "well a bunch of Scriptures say its Faith without works (Ephensians 2:8-9), but then there are terrify ones that say I better not practice these sins or else I am going to be cast out of the Ecclesia.."

This tension of Grace and do not practice sin is why we have the Greasy Gracers and the Penitentialists extremes in churches.

So my question is, can you presume on the Blood of Christ? That is, do sin and be like "I know Jesus has this covered?" ("What Can Eash Away M I can hear Romans Chapter Six already in my head, but then there is also the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:26-30).

I myself fall into the I am saved by Grace through Faith in Christ Alone camp, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." (Galatians 2:21), "And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace," (Romans 11:6), and "God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21).

And yet there is so many passages about not practicing sin:
"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.." (1 John 3:4-11)

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:48-51)

I know that at one point Martin Luther was so exasperated by this tension he cut out The Book of James from New Testament, and Pelagius removed most of the New Testament. I am not suggesting that, just how do we find the answer with such divergent Scriptures, it seems inevitable you end up with the Gracers and Penitentialist sects.

Further…

I would caution not to get the cart before the horse. As in, don’t try to better yourself to try to prove to yourself that you are saved. Much rather, make sure you understand the gospel and have placed your trust in Jesus to save you and then take your stand upon those verses, like John 3:16.

The mere fact that you bring up this topic, shows that you are concerned about sin in your life. And those that habitually sin, don’t care. Being concerned is a good sign that you are saved.

Lastly, don’t think that there is some point where you will have sinned too much and God will condemn you. He may discipline you as His child but not condemn you.

 

[Suze]

This statement you make here ----

We sometimes sin and don't even know it ,

I ask ------Can you give an example of what sin you commit that you don't know you have sinned ======

I say -----Cause you have to break a law to sin ---Sin is a choice we make -where there is no Law there is no sin applied

the Greek word for Sin ---
Strong's Lexicon
hamartia: Sin
a bad action, evil deed.

In the New Testament, "hamartia" is primarily used to denote sin, which is understood as a moral failing or transgression against God's law. It encompasses both the act of sinning and the inherent sinful nature of humanity.

Your quote here ---
how can we repent of a sin that we don't know we have committed

I say ------If you haven't broken a law ---then sin is not applied ---so you have no worries about having to repent ===

Your Quote Here

Sin is basically not doing what God wants us to do or , doing something that God doesn't want us to do

No---- sin is breaking any law ----if you decide not to do what God wants you to do ----that is just your decision ---God gave us free will to choose ----He does not impute sin on you for not doing what He wants you to do ------nor does He impute sin on you for doing something He doesn't want you to do ------

[QUOTE="Suze, post: 5477508, member: 340522"]I have a question , do u think that Jesus has paid for all the sins Are we forgiven in advance is what I think I'm asking

From Ai

Peter said that “everyone who believes in Jesus receives forgiveness of sins” (Act 10:43). John said the blood of Jesus “cleanses us from all sin”—past, present, and future (1 John 1:7). Then he adds, “your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake” (1 John 2:12).

I say -------So If all sins are forgiven why do we have to confess our sin when we do sin ----

Confessing our sin is not for God to forgive that sin as it has already been forgiven ---

It is for us to acknowledge our sin and confess it so we are in agreement with God that we have sin and we must fight to stay away from sin as best we can ----so it is for our benefit that we confess our sin openly to God ---we can't hide our sin from God so we are to confess it and get right back on track to kill it in our lives ---that is sin less and less as we mature in our walk with Christ ----[/QUOTE]
So , u don't think it's possible for u to offend one of your brother's or sisters in Christ without realising it ? If sin was not breaking any of God's laws then there would b some people ( the Pharisees perhaps ) who might b able to keep all the laws . The Pharisees didn't understand what the spirit of the law is , which is love , love God love each other . Do we all always love God ? Do we all always love our fellow human ? We sin in our hearts and minds with our thoughts , our lack of love etc . I don't break any of the laws of my country , does that make me perfect ? What about my thoughts feelings and words ? R they always acceptable to God ? Sin is not about not breaking the laws , it was for the Jews but we r not Jews , m we r Christians and when we sin it is about having the wrong spirit . I can give my money to someone but if in my heart I'm wishing I didn't have to then that makes my giving it of none effect because I gave it begrudgingly . We r not under the law , we r under grace and when we don't show that grace towards others in our daily lives , that's sin , freely we have received so freely we must give . Matthew Ch 5 , 6 and 7 r not about the laws of Moses . Matthew Ch 25 v 32-46 is not about keeping the law . Our ( Christian ) sins will not b measured against the law of Moses , our sins r against the laws of the spirit of love . Jeremiah Ch 31 v 31-34 .

 

[studentoftheword]

So , u don't think it's possible for u to offend one of your brother's or sisters in Christ without realising it ?

NO ___SIn has nothing to do with offending a Brother or Sister or an unbeliever ----

You need to break a Law to sin -----God gave that is it Israel 613 laws and that includes the 10 Commandments ----if you broke God's Laws you sinned -----that is it -----

AI
The phrase "where there is no law, there is no transgression"

(Romans 4:15) means that without a law, actions are not considered a legal violation or "sin" in a legal sense

WORTH REPEATING _______
without a law, --------------actions are not considered a legal violation or "sin

Romans 3:20. ESV For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Where there is no law there is no sin ----

you can offend your Brother or Sister all day long and it will no be a sin ------you need to break a law to sin ------

If you break the 50 miles per hour speed limit then you have sinned ----if you tell a lie against your neighbour then you have sinned ---if you sleep around with another man's wife or husband then you have sinned -----if you steal from the store then you have sinned -----sin need action ---

and here is the thing ===

Jesus said if you even if you think of stealing an item -----you have already committed the act in your heart -----so you are always aware of what your thinking and you are aware of your Sin action so there is no excuse of you never knowing that you have sinned -------

LOVE will not keep the Laws --------Period ---no man can keep the laws ever ----and if you break on law you have broken them all ----Jesus is the only one who could keep the laws -------no human can even today ---all Born Again people will break a law at some point ---we still sin ------you cannot keep the 613 laws -----
which is what Jesus kept -------all 613 laws ------

Love will not help you keep the laws ------

 

[homwardbound]

Even though all our sins have been forgiven -----our flesh is still weak -----and God knows that ----so we will fall to sin at times ---but God can gives us the the Power to combat the sin we might make if we rely on and call on His Grace -----who is Jesus Christ

Consider in the risen Son, risen for you that gives new life to you in your soul, not your flesh. For all sin now by Son is condemned to the flesh Romans 8:1-3
So be in Christ by belief it is done for you to be new, and learn new, and watch bad habits leave, that are sinful.
Renewing your mindset to see from Father's mindset to you through Son for you as reconciled, forgiven.
There is nothing more that anyone of first born flesh can do too please God ever. read that in Hebrews 10 the whole Chapter
See it is finished for you too in John 19:30, read the whole chapter please
then see Romans 6, the who;e chapter, get revealed reckon thyself dead to sin now in risen Son and begin to see new and watch sin leave, and not by you, any the done work of God through Son for you
Getting the "I" out of the way is not easy, and not that I have done it, I know this because I cannot predict any future. Therefore I put what is past behind me as fast as it is behind me, stand willing to learn from it, between God and you personally, see it and say thank you to God for showing, you, me and anyone else in belief, what got me, you and others triggered into that ignorance and sinned again
Paul, gave up Under Law to do of his own flesh and blood, to win Christ (Phil 3)

Be dead to sin and alive to god in truth given you from God, not me or any other person, thank you
Live in the present second, stay there, not in past or future thought(s) we, at least me cannot predict future. Therefore to ever say I am forgiven and I will not sin or ever want to sin sets one up to sin
Put past behind you as fast as I tis past from God it remains forgiven from God through Son's done work. So, now ask God, how to walk new in Faith trust, belief to God. it is assuredly not of anyone's own flesh nature ever since no flesh can please God ever since Son did I once for us all Romans 8:1-3

 

[SirSolaScriptura]

Ah yes of course ! The case of David , Bathsheba and Urijah springs to mind . God did forgive David but there were some heavy consequences to David's actions .

David also did something no one talks about, he seeks out The Sword of Goliath to give him power.. when he defeated Goliath by the power of God. Talk about a slide from where he had been spiritually.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I've enjoyed this thread very much but here's a thought that might freak some of u out . We sometimes sin and don't even know it , so , how can we repent of a sin that we don't know we have committed ? Sin is basically not doing what God wants us to do or , doing something that God doesn't want us to do . Bearing this in mind , I have a question , do u think that Jesus has paid for all the sins that we haven't yet committed and all the sins that we will unknowingly commit ? Are we forgiven in advance is what I think I'm asking . 🥴 .

Where do you think this fits in for a believer ?

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is Jesus wrong or right about God the father and his children ?

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Suze]

Where do you think this fits in for a believer ?

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Is Jesus wrong or right about God the father and his children ?

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Please forgive me for being a bit dim , r u actually asking me a question ? Do u want me to reply ? I'm sorry if I'm a bit slow but im not sure if u want me to respond or not , thank you 😁 .

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Please forgive me for being a bit dim , r u actually asking me a question ? Do u want me to reply ? I'm sorry if I'm a bit slow but im not sure if u want me to respond or not , thank you 😁 .

Nah no need to reply , I won’t bother you anymore was just responding to this

“I have a question , do u think that Jesus has paid for all the sins that we haven't yet committed and all the sins that we will unknowingly commit ? Are we forgiven in advance is what I think I'm asking “

So had asked you where that other part fits in ……

 

[Magenta]

I myself fall into the I am saved by Grace through Faith in Christ Alone camp

2 Timothy 3 verse 12 ~ Everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
Thank you for the inspiration! I hope you and yours are well .

 

[donnyscot]

We are a body of sin

 

[jacko]

if you could stop sinning, why would you need God's grace. Can a dog not bark? can a sinner not sin?

 

[wattie]

A tension I am having problems with in Scripture, and maybe you all can lend some light on this, is that Jesus paid it all for our sins once for all time (Hebrews Chapter Nine) and so faith in Him ensures our salvation (Romans 10:9-10, Philippians 3:9, John 3:16, John 6:40, Acts 15:5-11). However, there are all these passages in the New Testament about if you practice sin, and it gives the lists numerous times (Revelation 21:8 is an example) that says if you keep practicing those sins you will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is puzzling, because it places a Christian in a state of being like "well a bunch of Scriptures say its Faith without works (Ephensians 2:8-9), but then there are terrify ones that say I better not practice these sins or else I am going to be cast out of the Ecclesia.."

This tension of Grace and do not practice sin is why we have the Greasy Gracers and the Penitentialists extremes in churches.

So my question is, can you presume on the Blood of Christ? That is, do sin and be like "I know Jesus has this covered?" ("What Can Eash Away M I can hear Romans Chapter Six already in my head, but then there is also the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:26-30).

I myself fall into the I am saved by Grace through Faith in Christ Alone camp, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." (Galatians 2:21), "And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace," (Romans 11:6), and "God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21).

And yet there is so many passages about not practicing sin:
"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.." (1 John 3:4-11)

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:48-51)

I know that at one point Martin Luther was so exasperated by this tension he cut out The Book of James from New Testament, and Pelagius removed most of the New Testament. I am not suggesting that, just how do we find the answer with such divergent Scriptures, it seems inevitable you end up with the Gracers and Penitentialist sects.

Context will determine whether a passage is about eternal salvation or daily service.

Daily service is the right response to having eternal life given to you, but is not the means of receiving eternal life.

So verses about judgment for sin.. you gotta ask... is this judgment of being sent to hell? Or is it discipline/correction?

Who is being addressed? Converted people or not?

One example: 'there is no more sacrifice for sins' in Hebrews 10

This is the Hebrews being addressed who have been converted to Christianity.. but are going back to old ways..practicing sacrifice of bulls and goats.

'Sacrifice ' in this context..is animal sacrifice. Not Jesus's atoning sacrifice in this case.

The Hebrews if they sinned..couldn't sacrifice animals to atone for it. They weren't under that system anymore.

Doing that animal sacrifice was 'tredding the Son of God underfoot '..counting His one sacrifice as worthless.

So ... you gotta think about whether it's temporal consequences for sins.. that aren't about loss of eternal salvation..or the consequence of hell for those who never believed.

 

[Gideon300]

A tension I am having problems with in Scripture, and maybe you all can lend some light on this, is that Jesus paid it all for our sins once for all time (Hebrews Chapter Nine) and so faith in Him ensures our salvation (Romans 10:9-10, Philippians 3:9, John 3:16, John 6:40, Acts 15:5-11). However, there are all these passages in the New Testament about if you practice sin, and it gives the lists numerous times (Revelation 21:8 is an example) that says if you keep practicing those sins you will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is puzzling, because it places a Christian in a state of being like "well a bunch of Scriptures say its Faith without works (Ephensians 2:8-9), but then there are terrify ones that say I better not practice these sins or else I am going to be cast out of the Ecclesia.."

This tension of Grace and do not practice sin is why we have the Greasy Gracers and the Penitentialists extremes in churches.

So my question is, can you presume on the Blood of Christ? That is, do sin and be like "I know Jesus has this covered?" ("What Can Eash Away M I can hear Romans Chapter Six already in my head, but then there is also the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:26-30).

I myself fall into the I am saved by Grace through Faith in Christ Alone camp, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." (Galatians 2:21), "And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace," (Romans 11:6), and "God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21).

And yet there is so many passages about not practicing sin:
"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.." (1 John 3:4-11)

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:48-51)

I know that at one point Martin Luther was so exasperated by this tension he cut out The Book of James from New Testament, and Pelagius removed most of the New Testament. I am not suggesting that, just how do we find the answer with such divergent Scriptures, it seems inevitable you end up with the Gracers and Penitentialist sects.

We need to realise that being born again and entering the kingdom of God are not the same thing. We can't even see the Kingdom of God unless we are born again. (John 3:3). There will be many who are born again yet were unwilling to carry the cross daily and deny self. A great deal of teaching emphasises God's blessing, prosperity, healing etc. There is not nearly as much on denying self. Yet that is the purpose of being born again.

If you understand that it is possible to be born again yet miss out on the Kingdom of God, the tension goes. This is not the same as heaven. The Kingdom of God is on earth. This life is like a preschool for eternity. We have just one shot at it. If all we do is indulge ourselves (not the same as sinning), we will have little in the Kingdom. If we lose our lives in this life, we gain much in the next.

A modern parable goes like this: A rich woman dies and goes to heaven. She looks around and sees wonderful buildings, decorated with jewels and paved with gold. Some are more ornate than others. An angel comes and says that he will lead her to her mansion. When she gets there, it is a rather small and plain place, nothing like the grand abodes that she has seen before. She queries the angel as to why. He says, "That's all you sent up". If we will allow God to take 100% control of our lives, no matter the cost, we will be rewarded in the life to come.

If we cling to our self will and selfish desires, we will lose it all anyway. Nothing of self makes it into God's kingdom. We do well to accept the Lordship of Christ now, while we are free to do so. One day, we will bow the knee anyway. What have you got to lose? Nothing of value! And the gain is beyond comprehension.

 

[DavidLamb]

We need to realise that being born again and entering the kingdom of God are not the same thing. We can't even see the Kingdom of God unless we are born again. (John 3:3). There will be many who are born again yet were unwilling to carry the cross daily and deny self. A great deal of teaching emphasises God's blessing, prosperity, healing etc. There is not nearly as much on denying self. Yet that is the purpose of being born again.

If you understand that it is possible to be born again yet miss out on the Kingdom of God, the tension goes. This is not the same as heaven. The Kingdom of God is on earth. This life is like a preschool for eternity. We have just one shot at it. If all we do is indulge ourselves (not the same as sinning), we will have little in the Kingdom. If we lose our lives in this life, we gain much in the next.

A modern parable goes like this: A rich woman dies and goes to heaven. She looks around and sees wonderful buildings, decorated with jewels and paved with gold. Some are more ornate than others. An angel comes and says that he will lead her to her mansion. When she gets there, it is a rather small and plain place, nothing like the grand abodes that she has seen before. She queries the angel as to why. He says, "That's all you sent up". If we will allow God to take 100% control of our lives, no matter the cost, we will be rewarded in the life to come.

If we cling to our self will and selfish desires, we will lose it all anyway. Nothing of self makes it into God's kingdom. We do well to accept the Lordship of Christ now, while we are free to do so. One day, we will bow the knee anyway. What have you got to lose? Nothing of value! And the gain is beyond comprehension.

Peter addresses his first letter:

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.” (1Pe 1:1-2 NKJV)

So he is writing to Christians. Later in the same chapter, he wrote:

“He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,” (1Pe 1:20-23 NKJV)

I cannot understand how somebody can be truly born again, that is, given new life in Christ, and yet (in your view) not be in God's kingdom.

 

[mailmandan]

I've enjoyed this thread very much but here's a thought that might freak some of u out . We sometimes sin and don't even know it , so , how can we repent of a sin that we don't know we have committed ? Sin is basically not doing what God wants us to do or , doing something that God doesn't want us to do . Bearing this in mind , I have a question , do u think that Jesus has paid for all the sins that we haven't yet committed and all the sins that we will unknowingly commit ? Are we forgiven in advance is what I think I'm asking . 🥴 .

Sin is not only missing the mark by what we do but also what we fail to do. (James 4:17) Jesus Christ is the atoning sacrifice for all of our sins, past, present and future.

Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

In Colossians 2:13-14, Paul writes, “And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands.

 

[Gideon300]

Peter addresses his first letter:

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.” (1Pe 1:1-2 NKJV)

So he is writing to Christians. Later in the same chapter, he wrote:

“He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,” (1Pe 1:20-23 NKJV)

I cannot understand how somebody can be truly born again, that is, given new life in Christ, and yet (in your view) not be in God's kingdom.

Christians have choices too. Jesus said that you had to be born again even to see the Kingdom of God. The purpose of being born again is to serve God's Kingdom - here on the earth. Not every believer is willing to pay the price. Paul said, "And the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen." Paul did not claim to be in God's kingdom. It was future for him.

It helps to understand the difference between position and condition. Our position is that we are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, we are partakers of the divine nature, we have everything pertaining to life godliness, we are new creations in Christ and blessed with every spiritual blessing. Yet few live as if those great blessings were reality in experience. How long since you heard preaching on dying to self, carrying your cross or seeking God's kingdom as the first priority?

The church is riddled with false teaching. Prosperity preachers emphasise what God will do for you, as long as you fill the preacher's coffers. Some churches have turned themselves into entertainment venues masquerading as "worship". The Kingdom of God is primarily where Satan is driven out and God's people are delivered. Much of the Western church no longer believes deliverance is necessary.

Our life on earth is preparation for the life to come. Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us. Some will receive great reward because they have given up much in this life. Others will receive little because they clung to what they had in this life. It's not only what you have. It's what you do with what you have as well. The parable of the talents makes for sobering reading.

 

[DavidLamb]

Christians have choices too. Jesus said that you had to be born again even to see the Kingdom of God. The purpose of being born again is to serve God's Kingdom - here on the earth.

Not so, because Jesus said:

“My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."” (Joh 18:36 NKJV)

Being born again is a "must." When Jesus told Nicodemus about the necessity of the new birth, there is nothing to suggest that He was just talking about serving in God's kingdom, but rather about having spiritual life,

Not every believer is willing to pay the price. Paul said, "And the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen." Paul did not claim to be in God's kingdom. It was future for him.

Sorry, where do those words of Paul come from? You didn't give a bible reference, and I tried to find them but could not.

It helps to understand the difference between position and condition. Our position is that we are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, we are partakers of the divine nature, we have everything pertaining to life godliness, we are new creations in Christ and blessed with every spiritual blessing. Yet few live as if those great blessings were reality in experience. How long since you heard preaching on dying to self, carrying your cross or seeking God's kingdom as the first priority?

How long? Just a few hours! Your "position and condition" sound very like "already but not yet." Christians already are seated with Christ in heavenly places, but we are not yet actually in heaven.

The church is riddled with false teaching. Prosperity preachers emphasise what God will do for you, as long as you fill the preacher's coffers. Some churches have turned themselves into entertainment venues masquerading as "worship". The Kingdom of God is primarily where Satan is driven out and God's people are delivered. Much of the Western church no longer believes deliverance is necessary.

Yes, I agree that tjhere is a lot of false teaching around, including the so-called prosperity gospel, and entertainment evangelism.

Our life on earth is preparation for the life to come. Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us. Some will receive great reward because they have given up much in this life. Others will receive little because they clung to what they had in this life. It's not only what you have. It's what you do with what you have as well. The parable of the talents makes for sobering reading.

Agreed.

 

[p_rehbein]

So my question is, can you presume on the Blood of Christ? That is, do sin and be like "I know Jesus has this covered?" ("What Can Eash Away M I can hear Romans Chapter Six already in my head, but then there is also the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:26-30).

Seriously? Yes, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins and makes us worthy to be called "sons of God", and salvation comes through our belief in Him.

However, do you honestly believe that a person can then return to their old life and expect God to ignore the way we defile His loving grace through the sin filled lives we live? Goodness....

John 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

James 1:

22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[BillyBob]

A tension I am having problems with in Scripture, and maybe you all can lend some light on this, is that Jesus paid it all for our sins once for all time (Hebrews Chapter Nine) and so faith in Him ensures our salvation (Romans 10:9-10, Philippians 3:9, John 3:16, John 6:40, Acts 15:5-11). However, there are all these passages in the New Testament about if you practice sin, and it gives the lists numerous times (Revelation 21:8 is an example) that says if you keep practicing those sins you will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is puzzling, because it places a Christian in a state of being like "well a bunch of Scriptures say its Faith without works (Ephensians 2:8-9), but then there are terrify ones that say I better not practice these sins or else I am going to be cast out of the Ecclesia.."

This tension of Grace and do not practice sin is why we have the Greasy Gracers and the Penitentialists extremes in churches.

So my question is, can you presume on the Blood of Christ? That is, do sin and be like "I know Jesus has this covered?" ("What Can Eash Away M I can hear Romans Chapter Six already in my head, but then there is also the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:26-30).

I myself fall into the I am saved by Grace through Faith in Christ Alone camp, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." (Galatians 2:21), "And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace," (Romans 11:6), and "God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21).

And yet there is so many passages about not practicing sin:
"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.." (1 John 3:4-11)

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:48-51)

I know that at one point Martin Luther was so exasperated by this tension he cut out The Book of James from New Testament, and Pelagius removed most of the New Testament. I am not suggesting that, just how do we find the answer with such divergent Scriptures, it seems inevitable you end up with the Gracers and Penitentialist sects.

I know the feeling!
We will forever have thorns which must be removed over and over. However, if you were not a Christian and did not place your trust in Christ – it would not bother you.
Repent when you fail and ask to be strengthened! Always remember when He died, it was for all our sins – past, present, and future! Does that give us the freedom to continue in sin? God forbid!

 

[Beckworth]

A tension I am having problems with in Scripture, and maybe you all can lend some light on this, is that Jesus paid it all for our sins once for all time (Hebrews Chapter Nine) and so faith in Him ensures our salvation (Romans 10:9-10, Philippians 3:9, John 3:16, John 6:40, Acts 15:5-11). However, there are all these passages in the New Testament about if you practice sin, and it gives the lists numerous times (Revelation 21:8 is an example) that says if you keep practicing those sins you will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is puzzling, because it places a Christian in a state of being like "well a bunch of Scriptures say its Faith without works (Ephensians 2:8-9), but then there are terrify ones that say I better not practice these sins or else I am going to be cast out of the Ecclesia.."

This tension of Grace and do not practice sin is why we have the Greasy Gracers and the Penitentialists extremes in churches.

So my question is, can you presume on the Blood of Christ? That is, do sin and be like "I know Jesus has this covered?" ("What Can Eash Away M I can hear Romans Chapter Six already in my head, but then there is also the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (John 10:26-30).

I myself fall into the I am saved by Grace through Faith in Christ Alone camp, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." (Galatians 2:21), "And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace," (Romans 11:6), and "God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:21).

And yet there is so many passages about not practicing sin:
"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.." (1 John 3:4-11)

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:48-51)

I know that at one point Martin Luther was so exasperated by this tension he cut out The Book of James from New Testament, and Pelagius removed most of the New Testament. I am not suggesting that, just how do we find the answer with such divergent Scriptures, it seems inevitable you end up with the Gracers and Penitentialist sects.

One thing we know—the Bible does not contradict itself. If God contradicts Himself, then how can we trust or believe anything He says? So, if our premise is contrary to any scripture in God’s word, then either God’s word is wrong or our premise is wrong. I believe you know which one is true. Roman’s 3:4- “Let God be true and every man a liar.”

The reason you are having so much difficulty harmonizing scripture is because the man made doctrine of “osas”, is a false doctrine. You will never be able to accurately harmonize that teaching with every scripture in God’s word.

Consider John 10, for example. The “sheep” in this story are the ones that “Know” Jesus and are faithfully following Him. Of course He is going to give them eternal life—they are the FAITHFUL Christians. Why wouldn’t He give them eternal life? They are not living in sin. They are following Christ faithfully. Revelation 2:10 Christ says Be FAITHFUL unto dearth and I will give you the crown of life. ALL scripture teaches that the faithful will be saved. That does not prove the UNFAITHFUL will be saved. And that is the crux of the matter. Will an UNFAITHFUL child of God be lost???? I say “yes”, because so much of the New Testament teaches that he will.

You need to read the parable that Jesus told in Luke 15. This is the one that proves that a child of GOd can be lost. This parable is talking about a “lost” sheep, unlike John 10 which is only talking about saved sheep or faithful sheep who are not leaving Christ. This sheep in Luke 15 was in the fold of Christ (saved), Jesus calls him HIS sheep, but he has left the fold of Christ, of his own free will. No one has “snatched” him away (John 10). And by the way, that is all John 10 is saying. No outside person can take away one of God’s sheep , but that does not mean the sheep cannot leave of his own choice., which is exactly what this sheep in Luke 15 has done. The Holy Spirit says this sheep is “LOST”. In this story he is physically lost but we know that he is also SPIRITUALLY LOST because at the end of the story, the Holy Spirit says this sheep “repented”. Thus one passage proves that a child of Gid can leave Christ if his own free will and be lost spiritually. But if he repents, Christ will take Him back.

All of God’s word is harmonious with every other scripture in the Bible. Psalm 119:160- The SUM of God’s word is TRUTH. When you put it all together (sum) it all harmonizes with every other scripture in the New Testament. There are NO contradictions. It is the TRUTH.