Prewrath Rapture Question
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It is my understanding that the "pre-wrath" view is another phrase for the mid-trib view.
In this view the Church goes through the first half of the tribulation, which this view claims is the wrath of Satan.
But in the second half of the tribulation, this view states this is the wrath of God and the Church will not be on earth for this.
There are three views,
pre-trib
mid-trib
post-trib.
Which view do you see as the "pre-wrath" view?
In this view the Church goes through the first half of the tribulation, which this view claims is the wrath of Satan.
But in the second half of the tribulation, this view states this is the wrath of God and the Church will not be on earth for this.
There are three views,
pre-trib
mid-trib
post-trib.
Which view do you see as the "pre-wrath" view?
“So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Hebrews 9:28
he comes only twice his first coming fulfilled the Old Testament promises of his coming
“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.”
Malachi 3:1 KJV
the ot described him being born in the flesh his first coming and the New Testament promises his return which will fulfill the New Testament promises of Christ
he came once to offer salvstion me he will return again just as they saw him go up into heaven he will return the same way once In the end of the world
“Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
Acts 1:11 KJV
when he returns it will be with blazing fire and destruction but first he will save those left alive and translate them into spirit.
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
Then Those left will face destruction and eternal flame
his first coming was as a lamb to bear our sins humble and gentle but if we reject that then he’s going to return as a raging lion
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
the ot promosed Christ would come and be raised up to heaven and the New Testament promises Christ will return from heaven and usher in The new creation after destroying this one and all roots of evil in it
definately there are only two appearances of Christ in scripture once he came as a lamb to bear our sins to teach us Gods word d be raised up to heaven to intercede for us
and again the same Hessy’s ll come back from heaven this time to end the evil d usher in our home
“Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
…Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
2 Peter 3:3-4, 7, 10, 13
he’s going to end this wicked world
And usher in a new creation free of sin and death where we can all live and start experiencing real
Life as God designed before we followed Satan and corrupted this earth
Hebrews 9:28
he comes only twice his first coming fulfilled the Old Testament promises of his coming
“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.”
Malachi 3:1 KJV
the ot described him being born in the flesh his first coming and the New Testament promises his return which will fulfill the New Testament promises of Christ
he came once to offer salvstion me he will return again just as they saw him go up into heaven he will return the same way once In the end of the world
“Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
Acts 1:11 KJV
when he returns it will be with blazing fire and destruction but first he will save those left alive and translate them into spirit.
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 KJV
Then Those left will face destruction and eternal flame
his first coming was as a lamb to bear our sins humble and gentle but if we reject that then he’s going to return as a raging lion
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
the ot promosed Christ would come and be raised up to heaven and the New Testament promises Christ will return from heaven and usher in The new creation after destroying this one and all roots of evil in it
definately there are only two appearances of Christ in scripture once he came as a lamb to bear our sins to teach us Gods word d be raised up to heaven to intercede for us
and again the same Hessy’s ll come back from heaven this time to end the evil d usher in our home
“Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
…Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
2 Peter 3:3-4, 7, 10, 13
he’s going to end this wicked world
And usher in a new creation free of sin and death where we can all live and start experiencing real
Life as God designed before we followed Satan and corrupted this earth
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“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
it happens all at once Christ returns fathers believers who are left still it’s a meeting he’s descending and those left on earth that believe re raised up to meet him at that moment then everything else is doomed once the elect is gathered to him
it’s all a sudden event the sky rolling away Christ appearing with his angels and saints coming from heaven d the church still alive on earth caught up on that moment of sudden coming just before the wrath of God is poured out on the world
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
it happens all at once Christ returns fathers believers who are left still it’s a meeting he’s descending and those left on earth that believe re raised up to meet him at that moment then everything else is doomed once the elect is gathered to him
it’s all a sudden event the sky rolling away Christ appearing with his angels and saints coming from heaven d the church still alive on earth caught up on that moment of sudden coming just before the wrath of God is poured out on the world
brother I can only speak what I have seen and believe I scripture so it’s not the end all answer in claiming or anything but no in my view he came once to fulfill the ot promises to bear our sins and give us judgement like promised in the ot to do when the messiah came that was his first coming
and then he will return in the same way at the very end of the world, to manifest the promises of the New Testament that he made about the resurrection, and a new world that is eternal and free of sin and shame
“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
2 Peter 3:13 KJV
In my view , the whole “ millennial “reign takes place in sion the heavenly Jerusalem
“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
Hebrews 12:22
See how these were already redeemed from earth ?
“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.”
Revelation 14:1-3 KJV
There are living people in heaven with Jesus in his kingdom now already because they took part in the first resurrection
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
what happens if that’s true when someone leaves thoer flesh ? Where do they go if They already passed from death into life ? They have been resurrected by the spirit and will not die nor will hey take part in the resurrection of the dead they already are alive now they received the spirit of God and out their flesh to death and took part in Jesus resurrection like these folk where are they now ?
“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
remember when reading revelation it’s happening in heaven so John is seeing things in heaven and things on earth also sometimes he’s looking at earth and sees the beast warring against the church other times he’s looking at the people in heaven in the kingdom revelation is a layered book showing us things we can’t see on earth
sometimes John is looking here at that heavenly Jerusalem Hebrews tells us about
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-11, 13-17
other times he’s looking here to earth
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
Revelation 13:7-9 KJV
heaven is current and so is earth there are two plains of existence in revelation peace in heaven after the war when Christ was seated d a war on earth because Satan was cast out of heaven into earth
We are in this time period
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:7-12 KJV
It’s happening simultaneously the saints are already refining in the kingdom with Jesus in the end that heavenly kingdom is coming to earth when Jesus does
Remember that great multitude in heaven before the throne and how they had no more worries ? Eventually that’s going to be the case on earth when he brings l thkngs together again both heaven and earth
“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
Revelation 21:2-4 KJV
and then he will return in the same way at the very end of the world, to manifest the promises of the New Testament that he made about the resurrection, and a new world that is eternal and free of sin and shame
“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
2 Peter 3:13 KJV
In my view , the whole “ millennial “reign takes place in sion the heavenly Jerusalem
“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
Hebrews 12:22
See how these were already redeemed from earth ?
“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.”
Revelation 14:1-3 KJV
There are living people in heaven with Jesus in his kingdom now already because they took part in the first resurrection
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
what happens if that’s true when someone leaves thoer flesh ? Where do they go if They already passed from death into life ? They have been resurrected by the spirit and will not die nor will hey take part in the resurrection of the dead they already are alive now they received the spirit of God and out their flesh to death and took part in Jesus resurrection like these folk where are they now ?
“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
remember when reading revelation it’s happening in heaven so John is seeing things in heaven and things on earth also sometimes he’s looking at earth and sees the beast warring against the church other times he’s looking at the people in heaven in the kingdom revelation is a layered book showing us things we can’t see on earth
sometimes John is looking here at that heavenly Jerusalem Hebrews tells us about
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-11, 13-17
other times he’s looking here to earth
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
Revelation 13:7-9 KJV
heaven is current and so is earth there are two plains of existence in revelation peace in heaven after the war when Christ was seated d a war on earth because Satan was cast out of heaven into earth
We are in this time period
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
Revelation 12:7-12 KJV
It’s happening simultaneously the saints are already refining in the kingdom with Jesus in the end that heavenly kingdom is coming to earth when Jesus does
Remember that great multitude in heaven before the throne and how they had no more worries ? Eventually that’s going to be the case on earth when he brings l thkngs together again both heaven and earth
“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.”
Revelation 21:2-4 KJV
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This is certainly a strong case for a post trib rapture I will have to take my time reading all of this as my eyes are damaged and reading to much at once really srtrains them but I will say that while I hope for a pretrib rapture I am also prepared to go through the tribulation if need be. Everyone has different beleifs as to how it will happen but what matters is having our hearts prepared, many who believe in the pre trib rapture are not prepared to endure or suffer through the tribulation this is their mistake as we fail to consider that we could be wrong if the rapture was a topic that could be proven without a doubt we would not have all these constant debates about it but it simply isn't
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yes I agree brother like I said I’m not claiming the end all Answer I just have the fruits of my studies and prayers d that’s all I can claim is what view I myself have come to and recognize we’re all Working towards a better understanding of everything in scripture including this subject
you always have such a kind , patient and brotherly spirit and I can’t explain how much that is appreciated and respected .
I like what you said there and agree wholeheartedly. Remember brother tribulations come in many forms some struggle with disease , addictions , abuse , ect in this world there is a lot of evil a lot of trials and tribulations that every generation goes through. My own belief is that this world itself is the tribulation we pass through on our way home To the lord
and at times very harsh persecutions break out against both Christians and Jews. But each of us will go through what the lord appointed some won’t face a lot of tribulation others will is my own belief but whatever comes we have Jesus
but again that’s just how I view it
God bless and keep and prosper you in Jesus name !!
you always have such a kind , patient and brotherly spirit and I can’t explain how much that is appreciated and respected .
I like what you said there and agree wholeheartedly. Remember brother tribulations come in many forms some struggle with disease , addictions , abuse , ect in this world there is a lot of evil a lot of trials and tribulations that every generation goes through. My own belief is that this world itself is the tribulation we pass through on our way home To the lord
and at times very harsh persecutions break out against both Christians and Jews. But each of us will go through what the lord appointed some won’t face a lot of tribulation others will is my own belief but whatever comes we have Jesus
but again that’s just how I view it
God bless and keep and prosper you in Jesus name !!
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Yes it is true that my view and your view may or may not be the actual answer but regardless if one has a teachable heart God will show them the truth but I think he also sometimes gives us only part of the truth and the rest is either not for us to know or is a matter of faith and honestly if I end up being wrong that is fine with me because I told God from the beginning that I wanted to serve him in the tribulation and to be used by him I just know that I was made for more than just being on cc and doing what little I am able to do outside of the facility i live in so in a way I hope i'm wrong.
But for the things you said of me I greatly appreciate it however I cannot take credit for it that is all God's doing. And also yes tribulations are certainly something I understand very well my entire life it is as if life has an agenda against me a constant up hilll battle if it isn't one thing it's another, but it isn't the tribulations or amount that matters it's what you do with it and sometimes I wonder if I could go back and not have to go through everything I have would i? But then again all I have been through is what made me who I am today and I have learned a lot from all the tribulations I have had to go through instead of letting it overtake me or saying how unfair it is because honestly it has been very unfair and sometimes I envy how life just works out for other people but he uses our struggles and sorrows more than anything else.
But for the things you said of me I greatly appreciate it however I cannot take credit for it that is all God's doing. And also yes tribulations are certainly something I understand very well my entire life it is as if life has an agenda against me a constant up hilll battle if it isn't one thing it's another, but it isn't the tribulations or amount that matters it's what you do with it and sometimes I wonder if I could go back and not have to go through everything I have would i? But then again all I have been through is what made me who I am today and I have learned a lot from all the tribulations I have had to go through instead of letting it overtake me or saying how unfair it is because honestly it has been very unfair and sometimes I envy how life just works out for other people but he uses our struggles and sorrows more than anything else.
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One way to complicate things is to have two sets of everything.
Two second comings
Two gospels
Two peoples of God
The Bible was written to 1st century farmers and fishermen who spoky plainly, all they understood was Jesus was coming back on the last day, not before the last day, on the last day. Very simple, very practical, very easy.
Scholars today have too much time on their hands.
Two second comings
Two gospels
Two peoples of God
The Bible was written to 1st century farmers and fishermen who spoky plainly, all they understood was Jesus was coming back on the last day, not before the last day, on the last day. Very simple, very practical, very easy.
Scholars today have too much time on their hands.
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That was before God chose to send Paul to the Gentiles take take out a people from the Gentiles for His name. Imagine the Gentile church of today (until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in) is like a parenthesis inserted into Jewish time. Jesus started a Jewish church - but Israel as a nation would not accept Him as their Messiah even after He rose from the dead. Their age will finish - after the church age has finished - as their final, 70th week. The Gentiles had very little to do with their 69 weeks - as the angel said to Daniel, the 70 weeks was for HIS - DANIEL'S people. When God has wrapped up the season for the Gentiles, He will once again focus on the Jews, and finish their 70th week. We as Gentiles are not invited. God has not and will never send any invitations or make any reservations for the Gentiles with the 70th week. (I firmly believe people with wrong thinking can make their own reservations.)
By the way, you missed one: the signs in the sun and moon will be seen TWICE: as total eclipses first as the sign of the Day of the Lord, then over 7 years later, as total darkness for the sign of His coming.
Yes, two peoples of God. We, the Gentiles, were given the opportunity because Israel rejected their Messiah. But God made promises to the Jews and He is not a man that He would forget a promise. The very purpose of the 70th week is to "completely shatter" the power of the Jews—bring them to the place where ONLY GOD can save them. And He will.
Oh, there is the "everlasting Gospel."
There is the Gospel of the Kingdom."
And there is Paul's Gospel—by which we will be judged.
By the way, you missed one: the signs in the sun and moon will be seen TWICE: as total eclipses first as the sign of the Day of the Lord, then over 7 years later, as total darkness for the sign of His coming.
Yes, two peoples of God. We, the Gentiles, were given the opportunity because Israel rejected their Messiah. But God made promises to the Jews and He is not a man that He would forget a promise. The very purpose of the 70th week is to "completely shatter" the power of the Jews—bring them to the place where ONLY GOD can save them. And He will.
Oh, there is the "everlasting Gospel."
There is the Gospel of the Kingdom."
And there is Paul's Gospel—by which we will be judged.
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