Proof of Creation

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ddallen

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There are a few posts on this site that are debating evolution and creation. Unfortunately most of the arguments for creation are along the lines of evolution is wrong so therefore creation is right. This is a false dichotomy.
I want this thread to be slightly different. I want to see proof of creation.
This means making an argument on why creation is correct and then backing this up with facts and figures, including references.
Let the games begin
 
Even the Jewish teachers did not find a Scriptural one. They knew that Gen. 1 starts with God forming, not creating from nothing, the basic elements. The Hebrew words don't mean what we mean by creation ex nihilo. They would say that God did not tell us how He made things since it was beyond our power to understand. Anyone who delves into this, the Talmud says, it "would be better if he had not been born". Is. 45:12,18 is a case in point. The Hebrew does not prove what we call creation, only that God acted to "bara" and "asah" (as in Genesis) with material already in existence. Jer. 10:11-12 is instructive, as the gods did not "abad" the heavens, but the Lord "asan", "kuhn" and "natah" various things. Scripture avoids telling us who did "create" in the English sense of the term. I doubt Hebrew has a word for it, as I have seen the phrase "created the fundamental particles" used where we would use our term "create".

Together with this observation, the Jewish teachers tell us what centuries of Christians have echoed: "Of course God created everything, who else could have?" But this assumes there was a creation, rather than some other method of things getting to be in existence. As you point out, that is circular logic.
 
I have more questions than answers actually:

If evolution (the one taught in schools that is) is correct, and man evolved from apes, and the survival of the fittest mean the less fit die, why are there still so many kinds of apes? And why were not all the half- evolved animals killed by those better evolved (i.e: how did the half- fish half- landliving ones survive predators? )
 
wwjd_kilden said:
I have more questions than answers actually:

If evolution (the one taught in schools that is) is correct, and man evolved from apes, and the survival of the fittest mean the less fit die, why are there still so many kinds of apes? And why were not all the half- evolved animals killed by those better evolved (i.e: how did the half- fish half- landliving ones survive predators? )
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Man did not evolve from apes - man and ape both evolved from a common ancestor. There is no such thing as a half evolved animal - evolution does not work that way. It is a stop start process that responds to environmental and ecological pressures. Survival of the fittest is widely misunderstood. The fittest refers to that species that is better adapted to its environment, i.e. Sharks are better than humans in the sea.
 
Creation shows there is a Creator. A simple pencil has a creator, so is it logical to believe that the universe, something so much more grand and complex, doesn't have a creator? That's what the atheists would have us believe, but it's quite nonsensical. You can't even show me a simple pencil creating itself, let alone the universe, full of its many complexities.
 
megaman125 said:
Creation shows there is a Creator. A simple pencil has a creator, so is it logical to believe that the universe, something so much more grand and complex, doesn't have a creator? That's what the atheists would have us believe, but it's quite nonsensical. You can't even show me a simple pencil creating itself, let alone the universe, full of its many complexities.
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This is a tautological argument - you first assume that the universe is a creation and then assign a creator to it. You have not provided proof of your first assumption.
Also, for a pencil, one can go and directly observe a pencil being made - can you do the same with the universe? No.
 
If there was proof that would convince you friend than you would have already found it... but sence we can nether see man evolving from a certain ancestor or God creating the universe than is prettr much a pointless debate because nether side will belive what they cant see.
 
ddallen said:
This is a tautological argument - you first assume that the universe is a creation and then assign a creator to it. You have not provided proof of your first assumption.
Also, for a pencil, one can go and directly observe a pencil being made - can you do the same with the universe? No.
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And you assume the universe has no creator and came about without a creator. Yet you have not proved this assumption.
 
allaboutlove said:
If there was proof that would convince you friend than you would have already found it... but sence we can nether see man evolving from a certain ancestor or God creating the universe than is prettr much a pointless debate because nether side will belive what they cant see.
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The proof for evolution is there to be seen and studied by all, the fossil record showing the evolution from Pierolapithecus catalaunicus to Homo sapien, the genetic record which shows us to have a 98% identical genetic record with the great apes.
Chen, F.C. & Li, W.H. (2001). "Genomic divergences between humans and other hominoids and the effective population size of the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees". Am J Hum Genet 68 (2): 444–456.

Where is the corresponding proof of creation?
 
ddallen said:
There are a few posts on this site that are debating evolution and creation. Unfortunately most of the arguments for creation are along the lines of evolution is wrong so therefore creation is right. This is a false dichotomy.
I want this thread to be slightly different. I want to see proof of creation.
This means making an argument on why creation is correct and then backing this up with facts and figures, including references.
Let the games begin
Click to expand...

Why Do we need to argue? Don't you think that's why people are in disagreement and at war with each other?. are you trying to cause arguments for the fun of it? This is not a game, it maybe be to those idiots who has nothing to do. but Its not a game. And if you are a Christian, which is why you joined this site I hope. then you will have all the proof you need, by reading the first verses from the bible, what ever bible you read.

Nothing can create itself from nothing unless there is a creator. Someone or thing that starts events for creating.
Like it says in the bible when God created the heavens and earth, it was without form. Meaning nothing was there. But God created an event that took place for creation to begin. Yes God did not tell us how to DETAIL of how he created the heavens and the earth and all the living things, including us humans. But the fact is, that he did, and he doesn't need to tell us why's? what's? and how's? He created and that's it. If there is a creation of some sort, then there is a creator.

I mean come on! really? we born from apes? think about this for a second. If we were supposed to have been born from apes, how come we are not being born from them today? what record is there that a human being has been born from an ape? I tell you NON! Its all speculation without proof. False theories to get government funding to waste tax paying money. they been trying to prove this theory for years. and still no substantial proof has been shown.

This argument has gone on too far and too long. Its only causing fights, arguments. Maybe you don't realise that we are living in close and end times. Now I suppose you need proof for that also? well open your eyes people. expand your tunnel vision of site. broaden your picture a bit more. and you will see.
 
ddallen said:
The proof for evolution is there to be seen and studied by all, the fossil record showing the evolution from Pierolapithecus catalaunicus to Homo sapien, the genetic record which shows us to have a 98% identical genetic record with the great apes.
Chen, F.C. & Li, W.H. (2001). "Genomic divergences between humans and other hominoids and the effective population size of the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees". Am J Hum Genet68 (2): 444–456.

Where is the corresponding proof of creation?
Click to expand...

Sounds like you already made you mind up of what you believe. so why cause arguments on a Christian site? Why are you here? now you have spent all your wasted time on believing weird nutters who theories are still un proven. no try concentrate your time on reading the bible, lets see if you have a different belief then.
 
He causes arguments because though his bio says he is Chrisitan.....anyone can call themselves anything. Actions speak louder than words.
 
ddallen said:
The proof for evolution is there to be seen and studied by all, the fossil record. showing the evolution from Pierolapithecus catalaunicus to Homo sapien, the genetic record which shows us to have a 98% identical genetic record with the great apes.
Chen, F.C. & Li, W.H. (2001). "Genomic divergences between humans and other hominoids and the effective population size of the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees". Am J Hum Genet 68 (2): 444–456.

Where is the corresponding proof of creation?
Click to expand...

This isnt proof it suggest the possibi,ty of evolution but dosent prove it as far as sharing genetics with apes humans an apes are quit similar an from an unbiasied prospective it makes just as much sence that God would have used similar geneeic sequnces when forming both ape an man as it does that they both evolved from commo. Ancestors.... as far as proof of creation there isnt any thatd be any more convinceing to you than your argument for evolution was to me ether you know Gods real so you belive he created the univerae or you dont an you dont the only way youlll every have proof of creation is if you started beliving i God which is why there is no point arguing it no side has any actuall proof we just decide what is true an what isnt depinding on are biased.. i belive in God so i belive in creation you dont belive in God so you belive in evolution it has nothing to do with proof friend simply what we be,live
 
richie_2uk said:
Why Do we need to argue? Don't you think that's why people are in disagreement and at war with each other?. are you trying to cause arguments for the fun of it? This is not a game, it maybe be to those idiots who has nothing to do. but Its not a game. And if you are a Christian, which is why you joined this site I hope. then you will have all the proof you need, by reading the first verses from the bible, what ever bible you read. An argument, in the context of a debate, is where one puts forward their position and then backs it up. More wars have been initiated because people could not or would not argue their position in a civilised manner. This is not a game - I am interested in why people believe in creation - I want people to try to convince me that it is true.

Nothing can create itself from nothing unless there is a creator. Someone or thing that starts events for creating.
Like it says in the bible when God created the heavens and earth, it was without form. Meaning nothing was there. But God created an event that took place for creation to begin. Yes God did not tell us how to DETAIL of how he created the heavens and the earth and all the living things, including us humans. But the fact is, that he did, and he doesn't need to tell us why's? what's? and how's? He created and that's it. If there is a creation of some sort, then there is a creator. This is a tautological argument as I have mentioned before

I mean come on! really? we born from apes? think about this for a second. If we were supposed to have been born from apes, how come we are not being born from them today? what record is there that a human being has been born from an ape? I tell you NON! Its all speculation without proof. False theories to get government funding to waste tax paying money. they been trying to prove this theory for years. and still no substantial proof has been shown. I have addressed this earlier - humans did not evolve from apes - they both evolved from a common ancestor splitting approx 25Mya

This argument has gone on too far and too long. Its only causing fights, arguments. Maybe you don't realise that we are living in close and end times. Now I suppose you need proof for that also? well open your eyes people. expand your tunnel vision of site. broaden your picture a bit more. and you will see.
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The only way this will cause a fight is if people cannot debate in a rational and logical manner. The worst thing any sane person can do is believe in a dogma without exploring why they believe it in their own mind.
 
yac11 said:
He causes arguments because though his bio says he is Chrisitan.....anyone can call themselves anything. Actions speak louder than words.
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I am christian - I am catholic - what has that got to do with this debate?
Again I want a debate
 
richie_2uk said:
Sounds like you already made you mind up of what you believe. so why cause arguments on a Christian site? Why are you here? now you have spent all your wasted time on believing weird nutters who theories are still un proven. no try concentrate your time on reading the bible, lets see if you have a different belief then.
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I find this unnerving. It's not an argument, it's a question on a forum which is meant for these types of discussions. I think it's very important to ask questions no matter what your religion is so you can better understand and defend it. How are you supposed to fully understand something if you refuse to ask these kinds of questions??

There is nothing wrong with questions, and if you think that there is then you're probably afraid of the answer.
 
ddallen said:
There are a few posts on this site that are debating evolution and creation. Unfortunately most of the arguments for creation are along the lines of evolution is wrong so therefore creation is right. This is a false dichotomy.
I want this thread to be slightly different. I want to see proof of creation.
This means making an argument on why creation is correct and then backing this up with facts and figures, including references.
Let the games begin
Click to expand...

I hope you don't hold your breath waiting for an answer
 
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