Prophesied by Joel...

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Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,459
1,187
113
#1
In Acts 2, those hearing people speak in languages ask what it means. Some marvel at the miracle, while others mock.
Peter gave a direct answer. This is that which was prophesied by Joel. "This" the "speaking in tongues" that you are now seeing and hearing is what Joel prophesied about. The prophecy is specific, in the last days I will pour out my Spirit. In other words, when you see someone speaking in tongues it means they have received the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel.

Some ask, If speaking in tongues is the evidence that accompanies receiving of the Holy Spirit, why doesn't the Bible just plainly say so? The Bible actually does say it plainly; in story form. When the question was asked, what does this speaking in tongues mean? Peter gives them a direct answer straight from Joel's prophecy. So, when you see someone speaking in tongues you know they have received the Holy Spirit.

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

Acts 2, 10, and 19 set the pattern. Each confirms speaking in tongues is the direct evidence of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10 - they heard them speak in tongues. That experience confirmed to Peter and others that the individuals had actually received the Holy Spirit. And as seen elsewhere in scripture nothing other than tongues confirms the initial experience; not believing in Jesus, saying a sinner's prayer, or having strong feelings, etc.

Acts 11 - Peter gives an account of what occurred in Acts 10. He indicates the people spoke in tongues proving they had received the Holy Spirit and as such God intended they be water baptized in the name of Jesus as well.

Acts 19:6-7 (This is the last detailed account some 20+ years after the witness of the truth revealed at Pentecost)
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.


A Visible Sign of the Invisible:

Acts 8 - Confirms receiving the Holy Spirit is identifiable.
How could the people be so sure that those who believed and were water baptized had not received the Holy Spirit? And what made the people so sure that the experience had occurred a few days later? (Acts 8:14-19)

Clearly it was not just the laying on of hands that proved the experience occurred. Simon wanted to buy the ability to do what he witnessed when the apostles laid hands on the people. Think about it. There's no need to pay to have the ability to lay hands on a person. It is clear he wanted to buy the power to demonstrate the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

(There must have been a definite, supernatural
sign for Simon the Magician to be impressed enough to
desire it. Simon apparently wanted to buy and use this
miracle in his magical shows; he desired the power to lay
hands on people and have the miraculous sign manifest
itself.) New Birth-Bernard

As revealed elsewhere in scripture, speaking in tongues is the visible sign God chose to reveal when the invisible Holy Spirit initially enters one's body.

God chose the sign. And He certainly does not have to explain Himself. However, some biblical records point to the possible reason why He did it.

1. Tower of Babel = God used tongues as a means to separate people who were disobedient. A reversal of this is seen at Pentecost. God is bringing people back into one body - into unity.

2. James 3 - reveals human beings cannot tame the unruly tongue. However, God can and does when people submit to Him. Speaking in tongues is a conscious act of surrender.

3. There are many external signs when the Holy Spirit is present in an area. As to Pentecost, the wind indicated the Holy Spirit had arrived in the upper room. And flaming tongues sat atop each person revealing that what was about to happen was for all individually.

Speaking in tongues is different in that the sign comes from the inside out after God has taken up residence in one's body.
 
Jul 3, 2015
64,033
32,517
113
#2

Joel 2 verses 28 plus 32a I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.
:)
 
Oct 19, 2024
4,989
1,068
113
USA-TX
#3
In Acts 2, those hearing people speak in languages ask what it means. Some marvel at the miracle, while others mock.
Peter gave a direct answer. This is that which was prophesied by Joel. "This" the "speaking in tongues" that you are now seeing and hearing is what Joel prophesied about. The prophecy is specific, in the last days I will pour out my Spirit. In other words, when you see someone speaking in tongues it means they have received the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel.

Some ask, If speaking in tongues is the evidence that accompanies receiving of the Holy Spirit, why doesn't the Bible just plainly say so? The Bible actually does say it plainly; in story form. When the question was asked, what does this speaking in tongues mean? Peter gives them a direct answer straight from Joel's prophecy. So, when you see someone speaking in tongues you know they have received the Holy Spirit.

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

Acts 2, 10, and 19 set the pattern. Each confirms speaking in tongues is the direct evidence of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10 - they heard them speak in tongues. That experience confirmed to Peter and others that the individuals had actually received the Holy Spirit. And as seen elsewhere in scripture nothing other than tongues confirms the initial experience; not believing in Jesus, saying a sinner's prayer, or having strong feelings, etc.

Acts 11 - Peter gives an account of what occurred in Acts 10. He indicates the people spoke in tongues proving they had received the Holy Spirit and as such God intended they be water baptized in the name of Jesus as well.

Acts 19:6-7 (This is the last detailed account some 20+ years after the witness of the truth revealed at Pentecost)
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.


A Visible Sign of the Invisible:

Acts 8 - Confirms receiving the Holy Spirit is identifiable.
How could the people be so sure that those who believed and were water baptized had not received the Holy Spirit? And what made the people so sure that the experience had occurred a few days later? (Acts 8:14-19)

Clearly it was not just the laying on of hands that proved the experience occurred. Simon wanted to buy the ability to do what he witnessed when the apostles laid hands on the people. Think about it. There's no need to pay to have the ability to lay hands on a person. It is clear he wanted to buy the power to demonstrate the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

(There must have been a definite, supernatural
sign for Simon the Magician to be impressed enough to
desire it. Simon apparently wanted to buy and use this
miracle in his magical shows; he desired the power to lay
hands on people and have the miraculous sign manifest
itself.) New Birth-Bernard

As revealed elsewhere in scripture, speaking in tongues is the visible sign God chose to reveal when the invisible Holy Spirit initially enters one's body.

God chose the sign. And He certainly does not have to explain Himself. However, some biblical records point to the possible reason why He did it.

1. Tower of Babel = God used tongues as a means to separate people who were disobedient. A reversal of this is seen at Pentecost. God is bringing people back into one body - into unity.

2. James 3 - reveals human beings cannot tame the unruly tongue. However, God can and does when people submit to Him. Speaking in tongues is a conscious act of surrender.

3. There are many external signs when the Holy Spirit is present in an area. As to Pentecost, the wind indicated the Holy Spirit had arrived in the upper room. And flaming tongues sat atop each person revealing that what was about to happen was for all individually.

Speaking in tongues is different in that the sign comes from the inside out after God has taken up residence in one's body.
Re "Some ask, If speaking in tongues is the evidence that accompanies receiving of the Holy Spirit, why doesn't the Bible just plainly say so? The Bible actually does say it plainly; in story form.": Historical passages have some teaching value, but one should interpret them in light of didactic passages when possible. I see no one saying that Pentecost did not fulfill Joel. The problematic doctrine is saying that glossalalia is a sign of being Spirit baptism or filling, which contradicts teaching that all Christians are baptized by the HS into the body of Christ (1Cor. 12:30) and that love is the sign of being spiritually full (Eph. 3:16-19).
 
Feb 15, 2014
4,140
1,036
113
62
#4
In Acts 2, those hearing people speak in languages ask what it means. Some marvel at the miracle, while others mock.
Peter gave a direct answer. This is that which was prophesied by Joel. "This" the "speaking in tongues" that you are now seeing and hearing is what Joel prophesied about. The prophecy is specific, in the last days I will pour out my Spirit. In other words, when you see someone speaking in tongues it means they have received the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel.

Some ask, If speaking in tongues is the evidence that accompanies receiving of the Holy Spirit, why doesn't the Bible just plainly say so? The Bible actually does say it plainly; in story form. When the question was asked, what does this speaking in tongues mean? Peter gives them a direct answer straight from Joel's prophecy. So, when you see someone speaking in tongues you know they have received the Holy Spirit.

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

Acts 2, 10, and 19 set the pattern. Each confirms speaking in tongues is the direct evidence of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10 - they heard them speak in tongues. That experience confirmed to Peter and others that the individuals had actually received the Holy Spirit. And as seen elsewhere in scripture nothing other than tongues confirms the initial experience; not believing in Jesus, saying a sinner's prayer, or having strong feelings, etc.

Acts 11 - Peter gives an account of what occurred in Acts 10. He indicates the people spoke in tongues proving they had received the Holy Spirit and as such God intended they be water baptized in the name of Jesus as well.

Acts 19:6-7 (This is the last detailed account some 20+ years after the witness of the truth revealed at Pentecost)
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.


A Visible Sign of the Invisible:

Acts 8 - Confirms receiving the Holy Spirit is identifiable.
How could the people be so sure that those who believed and were water baptized had not received the Holy Spirit? And what made the people so sure that the experience had occurred a few days later? (Acts 8:14-19)

Clearly it was not just the laying on of hands that proved the experience occurred. Simon wanted to buy the ability to do what he witnessed when the apostles laid hands on the people. Think about it. There's no need to pay to have the ability to lay hands on a person. It is clear he wanted to buy the power to demonstrate the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

(There must have been a definite, supernatural
sign for Simon the Magician to be impressed enough to
desire it. Simon apparently wanted to buy and use this
miracle in his magical shows; he desired the power to lay
hands on people and have the miraculous sign manifest
itself.) New Birth-Bernard

As revealed elsewhere in scripture, speaking in tongues is the visible sign God chose to reveal when the invisible Holy Spirit initially enters one's body.

God chose the sign. And He certainly does not have to explain Himself. However, some biblical records point to the possible reason why He did it.

1. Tower of Babel = God used tongues as a means to separate people who were disobedient. A reversal of this is seen at Pentecost. God is bringing people back into one body - into unity.

2. James 3 - reveals human beings cannot tame the unruly tongue. However, God can and does when people submit to Him. Speaking in tongues is a conscious act of surrender.

3. There are many external signs when the Holy Spirit is present in an area. As to Pentecost, the wind indicated the Holy Spirit had arrived in the upper room. And flaming tongues sat atop each person revealing that what was about to happen was for all individually.

Speaking in tongues is different in that the sign comes from the inside out after God has taken up residence in one's body.
According what you state, the Holy Spirit takes residence only in believers which are speaking in tongues! That means all who dont speak in tongues have ergo not the Holy Spirit. No Holy Spirit means not be saved.
Right?
And the first person, after the biblical time then is Agnes Ozman? If we let beside the cults during the churchhistory. That means only Pentecostal and Charismatic believers have the Holy Spirit.
You are shure?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,426
6,270
113
#5
In Acts 2, those hearing people speak in languages ask what it means. Some marvel at the miracle, while others mock.
Peter gave a direct answer. This is that which was prophesied by Joel. "This" the "speaking in tongues" that you are now seeing and hearing is what Joel prophesied about. The prophecy is specific, in the last days I will pour out my Spirit. In other words, when you see someone speaking in tongues it means they have received the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel.

Some ask, If speaking in tongues is the evidence that accompanies receiving of the Holy Spirit, why doesn't the Bible just plainly say so? The Bible actually does say it plainly; in story form. When the question was asked, what does this speaking in tongues mean? Peter gives them a direct answer straight from Joel's prophecy. So, when you see someone speaking in tongues you know they have received the Holy Spirit.

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

Acts 2, 10, and 19 set the pattern. Each confirms speaking in tongues is the direct evidence of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10 - they heard them speak in tongues. That experience confirmed to Peter and others that the individuals had actually received the Holy Spirit. And as seen elsewhere in scripture nothing other than tongues confirms the initial experience; not believing in Jesus, saying a sinner's prayer, or having strong feelings, etc.

Acts 11 - Peter gives an account of what occurred in Acts 10. He indicates the people spoke in tongues proving they had received the Holy Spirit and as such God intended they be water baptized in the name of Jesus as well.

Acts 19:6-7 (This is the last detailed account some 20+ years after the witness of the truth revealed at Pentecost)
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.


A Visible Sign of the Invisible:

Acts 8 - Confirms receiving the Holy Spirit is identifiable.
How could the people be so sure that those who believed and were water baptized had not received the Holy Spirit? And what made the people so sure that the experience had occurred a few days later? (Acts 8:14-19)

Clearly it was not just the laying on of hands that proved the experience occurred. Simon wanted to buy the ability to do what he witnessed when the apostles laid hands on the people. Think about it. There's no need to pay to have the ability to lay hands on a person. It is clear he wanted to buy the power to demonstrate the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

(There must have been a definite, supernatural
sign for Simon the Magician to be impressed enough to
desire it. Simon apparently wanted to buy and use this
miracle in his magical shows; he desired the power to lay
hands on people and have the miraculous sign manifest
itself.) New Birth-Bernard

As revealed elsewhere in scripture, speaking in tongues is the visible sign God chose to reveal when the invisible Holy Spirit initially enters one's body.

God chose the sign. And He certainly does not have to explain Himself. However, some biblical records point to the possible reason why He did it.

1. Tower of Babel = God used tongues as a means to separate people who were disobedient. A reversal of this is seen at Pentecost. God is bringing people back into one body - into unity.

2. James 3 - reveals human beings cannot tame the unruly tongue. However, God can and does when people submit to Him. Speaking in tongues is a conscious act of surrender.

3. There are many external signs when the Holy Spirit is present in an area. As to Pentecost, the wind indicated the Holy Spirit had arrived in the upper room. And flaming tongues sat atop each person revealing that what was about to happen was for all individually.

Speaking in tongues is different in that the sign comes from the inside out after God has taken up residence in one's body.
But in acts 2 there there speaking other languages so the people can understand the gospel in tbier own tongue

“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judæa, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4-12‬ ‭

What I mean to say is the “gift of tongues “ here is that they were speaking in everyone’s foreign language intelligibly the gospel. The gift of “tongues “ is the gift of other known languages it was a necessity for them to carry out the great commission and preach the gospel to everyone
 

Brasspen

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2024
571
276
63
#6
What I mean to say is the “gift of tongues “ here is that they were speaking in everyone’s foreign language intelligibly the gospel. The gift of “tongues “ is the gift of other known languages it was a necessity for them to carry out the great commission and preach the gospel to everyone
Know that many people who used and use the gift of tongues do not have any interpretation of it. They speak it, but don't know what is said.
 
Sep 2, 2020
15,426
6,270
113
#7
Know that many people who used and use the gift of tongues do not have any interpretation of it. They speak it, but don't know what is said.
Yes I know some folks but what I’m saying is in acts chapter 2

The gift of tongues was necassary for the apostles to be able to preach the gospel to all the people who spoke other languages. It wasn’t just incoherent babbling they were speaking the gospel to the crowd and everyone was hearing it …..in thier own native language it’s a ministry gift essential for speaking the gospel to others of a different language is my point.
 
Feb 15, 2014
4,140
1,036
113
62
#8
Yes I know some folks but what I’m saying is in acts chapter 2

The gift of tongues was necassary for the apostles to be able to preach the gospel to all the people who spoke other languages. It wasn’t just incoherent babbling they were speaking the gospel to the crowd and everyone was hearing it …..in thier own native language it’s a ministry gift essential for speaking the gospel to others of a different language is my point.
Well, I would say, the text in Acts 2 was only for to proof the jews that this was from God!
Later is nowhere recordet that this speaking in tongues was for to preach the gospel.
Also in beginning of the Pentecostal movement in 1906 they thought that this gift was to preach the gospel in other languages. What finaly not worked.
 
Oct 19, 2024
4,989
1,068
113
USA-TX
#9
Well, I would say, the text in Acts 2 was only for to proof the jews that this was from God!
Later is nowhere recordet that this speaking in tongues was for to preach the gospel.
Also in beginning of the Pentecostal movement in 1906 they thought that this gift was to preach the gospel in other languages. What finaly not worked.
Yes, but while by the end of the apostolic era glossalalia seems to have been given only to those in the church at Corinth,
and today seems to be bogus (along with the gifts of healing and drinking poison), Paul merely discouraged it rather than disallowing it,
so we must do the same.
 
Aug 22, 2024
21
17
3
#10
In Acts 2, those hearing people speak in languages ask what it means. Some marvel at the miracle, while others mock.

Peter gave a direct answer. This is that which was prophesied by Joel. "This" the "speaking in tongues" that you are now seeing and hearing is what Joel prophesied about. The prophecy is specific, in the last days I will pour out my Spirit. In other words, when you see someone speaking in tongues it means they have received the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel.

Some ask, If speaking in tongues is the evidence that accompanies receiving of the Holy Spirit, why doesn't the Bible just plainly say so? The Bible actually does say it plainly; in story form. When the question was asked, what does this speaking in tongues mean? Peter gives them a direct answer straight from Joel's prophecy. So, when you see someone speaking in tongues you know they have received the Holy Spirit.

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

Acts 2, 10, and 19 set the pattern. Each confirms speaking in tongues is the direct evidence of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10 - they heard them speak in tongues. That experience confirmed to Peter and others that the individuals had actually received the Holy Spirit. And as seen elsewhere in scripture nothing other than tongues confirms the initial experience; not believing in Jesus, saying a sinner's prayer, or having strong feelings, etc.

Acts 11 - Peter gives an account of what occurred in Acts 10. He indicates the people spoke in tongues proving they had received the Holy Spirit and as such God intended they be water baptized in the name of Jesus as well.

Acts 19:6-7 (This is the last detailed account some 20+ years after the witness of the truth revealed at Pentecost)

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

And all the men were about twelve.

A Visible Sign of the Invisible:

Acts 8 - Confirms receiving the Holy Spirit is identifiable.

How could the people be so sure that those who believed and were water baptized had not received the Holy Spirit? And what made the people so sure that the experience had occurred a few days later? (Acts 8:14-19)

Clearly it was not just the laying on of hands that proved the experience occurred. Simon wanted to buy the ability to do what he witnessed when the apostles laid hands on the people. Think about it. There's no need to pay to have the ability to lay hands on a person. It is clear he wanted to buy the power to demonstrate the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

(There must have been a definite, supernatural sign for Simon the Magician to be impressed enough to desire it. Simon apparently wanted to buy and use this miracle in his magical shows; he desired the power to lay hands on people and have the miraculous sign manifest itself.) New Birth-Bernard

As revealed elsewhere in scripture, speaking in tongues is the visible sign God chose to reveal when the invisible Holy Spirit initially enters one's body.

God chose the sign. And He certainly does not have to explain Himself. However, some biblical records point to the possible reason why He did it.

1. Tower of Babel = God used tongues as a means to separate people who were disobedient. A reversal of this is seen at Pentecost. God is bringing people back into one body - into unity.

2. James 3 - reveals human beings cannot tame the unruly tongue. However, God can and does when people submit to Him. Speaking in tongues is a conscious act of surrender.

3. There are many external signs when the Holy Spirit is present in an area. As to Pentecost, the wind indicated the Holy Spirit had arrived in the upper room. And flaming tongues sat atop each person revealing that what was about to happen was for all individually.

Speaking in tongues is different in that the sign comes from the inside out after God has taken up residence in one's body. For those seeking deeper guidance on living a life aligned with God's will, resources like prayer points with scriptures can help strengthen your spiritual walk. Additionally, understanding the broader context of God's names, such as Yahweh, or exploring the meaning of Jehovah Jireh, can deepen your connection to His promises. For further study on spiritual gifts and their significance, consider exploring the Beatitudes or the Bible verses for strength to support your faith journey.

I really appreciate how you’ve laid out the connection between speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit in Acts. Your point about the Bible showing this through stories, like Peter quoting Joel, makes it clear and relatable. I love how you tied it to Pentecost as a moment of God bringing people together, reversing the division from Babel. That’s such a powerful image of unity.

From a Christian perspective, I see speaking in tongues as a beautiful sign of God’s presence, like you said—a visible marker of something invisible. It’s amazing to think about how God uses our surrender, even something as personal as our speech, to show His power. Your mention of James 3 and the untamed tongue really hits home; it’s like God’s saying, “I’ve got this, just trust Me.”

I also think it’s worth noting that while tongues is a clear sign in Acts, the Holy Spirit works in so many ways to guide us. For some, it’s that initial outpouring; for others, it’s a quiet strength or wisdom over time. What’s your take on how the Spirit moves in folks who don’t experience tongues but still live deeply faithful lives? I’d love to hear more of your thoughts!
 
Oct 19, 2024
4,989
1,068
113
USA-TX
#11
I really appreciate how you’ve laid out the connection between speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit in Acts. Your point about the Bible showing this through stories, like Peter quoting Joel, makes it clear and relatable. I love how you tied it to Pentecost as a moment of God bringing people together, reversing the division from Babel. That’s such a powerful image of unity.

From a Christian perspective, I see speaking in tongues as a beautiful sign of God’s presence, like you said—a visible marker of something invisible. It’s amazing to think about how God uses our surrender, even something as personal as our speech, to show His power. Your mention of James 3 and the untamed tongue really hits home; it’s like God’s saying, “I’ve got this, just trust Me.”

I also think it’s worth noting that while tongues is a clear sign in Acts, the Holy Spirit works in so many ways to guide us. For some, it’s that initial outpouring; for others, it’s a quiet strength or wisdom over time. What’s your take on how the Spirit moves in folks who don’t experience tongues but still live deeply faithful lives? I’d love to hear more of your thoughts!
Yes, at the beginning God employed miracles as needed until the church was firmly established,
after which time (the end of the apostolic era) the method of persuasion via preaching became normative,
which means physical miracles became rather rare as the spiritual miracle increased and spread.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,459
1,187
113
#12
...The problematic doctrine is saying that glossalalia is a sign of being Spirit baptism or filling, ....
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4
 

lrs68

Well-known member
Dec 30, 2024
960
258
63
#13
My position on the Gifts is that nowhere does the claim [has ended] can be found anywhere in the 27 Books of the New Testament. The one mention is when we see God face to face and that won't take place until the Rapture\Resurrection.

In fact, we keep reading that God is the same yesterday today and forever. That means laying hands on the sick and praying in the NAME of Jesus is still valid as the Gifts and the Baptismal Formula.

The weird thing about this dilemma is the record keeping from the Catholic Church. It's much like the example of the Baptismal Formula that claims the Church Baptized up until the 4th century in the NAME of Jesus before changing it to the Matthew 28:19 version [I have included the attachment below to show this proof]

^
I mentioned that because there's a place also about when the Catholic Church decided to end the Gifts.

So we see the Catholic Church changed the Baptismal Formula, the ending of the Gifts, and there's other things but what we do know is that MAN CHANGED THESE THINGS NOT GOD!!


***Look at last paragraph that explains the changing of the Baptismal Formula***
 

Attachments

Oct 19, 2024
4,989
1,068
113
USA-TX
#14
"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:4
Yes, and the filling was with love (Matt. 5:44, John 13:35, Eph. 3:16-19),
which caused them to share the Good News as the HS enabled.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,459
1,187
113
#15
According what you state, the Holy Spirit takes residence only in believers which are speaking in tongues! That means all who dont speak in tongues have ergo not the Holy Spirit. No Holy Spirit means not be saved.
Right?
And the first person, after the biblical time then is Agnes Ozman? If we let beside the cults during the churchhistory. That means only Pentecostal and Charismatic believers have the Holy Spirit.
You are shure?
The experience begun at Pentecost has continued throughout church history and is not exclusive to certain denominations as you suggest.

Jesus pointed out the Heavenly Father will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. The problem is many don't ask because they believe they already have the Holy Spirit.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. (Matt. 5:6)
 
Oct 24, 2012
17,633
761
113
#16
1 Cor 14 says a lot from Paul about the tongues issue, to me as I see Paul saying he would rather us prophesy and not to forbid speaking in tongues. how he was glad he spoke inn tongues more than others, yet privately he did that between God and him.
That, he would gladly desire to speak five words in understanding to the listener over a thousand words in tongues others do not understand
There is an order to all things to see and be new in understanding that can only in truth to me, be God given to anyone in belief to see, those that do not give up do some day see new and can't explain it clearly at least me
Beyond flesh understanding being given the new to know in each person personally, each know as in Romans 8 states this to me and all y'all also
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,459
1,187
113
#17
But in acts 2 there there speaking other languages so the people can understand the gospel in tbier own tongue

“And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilæans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judæa, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:4-12‬ ‭

What I mean to say is the “gift of tongues “ here is that they were speaking in everyone’s foreign language intelligibly the gospel. The gift of “tongues “ is the gift of other known languages it was a necessity for them to carry out the great commission and preach the gospel to everyone
After Jesus was glorified He shed forth the Holy Spirit. And speaking in tongues was the sign that individuals had been given God's gift; the Holy Spirit. Note the miraculous experience of tongues was the consistent sign of the arrival of the Holy Spirit even when people of other languages were not present. (Acts 8, 10, 19)

Scripture reveals God chose speaking in tongues as a means of communication for a variety of purposes.
1. Evidence of people being filled with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4,33 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7)
2. Interaction between God's Spirit and man's renewed spirit for personal edification. (1 Cor. 14)
3. Used as the means of presenting a God-given message to a congregation that required interpretation. (1 Cor. 12)
4. Worship of God in song. (1 Cor. 14:15)

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:23-24
 
Feb 15, 2014
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#18
The experience begun at Pentecost has continued throughout church history and is not exclusive to certain denominations as you suggest.

Jesus pointed out the Heavenly Father will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask. The problem is many don't ask because they believe they already have the Holy Spirit.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. (Matt. 5:6)
Well, every believer who is baptised with the Holy Spirit has Him living inward. Thats what we called born again. Will you say that all Christians I met in my life, including me, are deceived? That we dont have the Holy Spirit, because we dont spoke in tongues, when we was born again?
After the biblical time, I mean the time during the apostles lived, you find speaking in tongues bot genuine in the churches. But you find it in cults. The Pentecostals are called Pentecostal, because of that what happend in 1906 in Azusa Street. Before the name Pentecostals as church did not exist.
There are 2 meetings before: 1901 in Topeka and one meeting 1896. Some prepentecostal roots found in 1886 and 1879.
But the first person, which is historical proofed was Agnes Ozman in 1901 in Topeka.
So if you claime, that speaking in tongues is a normal sign of every believer who received the Holy Spirit. Then, out of cults, very rare bornagain believers exist before 1901. In some countrys then non. F.e. in australia.

Btw
The quotet text In Luke 11,13, you put an little bit out of the context.
✝ Luke 11:13

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

And this was before pentecost.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#19
In Acts 2, those hearing people speak in languages ask what it means. Some marvel at the miracle, while others mock.
Peter gave a direct answer. This is that which was prophesied by Joel. "This" the "speaking in tongues" that you are now seeing and hearing is what Joel prophesied about. The prophecy is specific, in the last days I will pour out my Spirit. In other words, when you see someone speaking in tongues it means they have received the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel.

Some ask, If speaking in tongues is the evidence that accompanies receiving of the Holy Spirit, why doesn't the Bible just plainly say so? The Bible actually does say it plainly; in story form. When the question was asked, what does this speaking in tongues mean? Peter gives them a direct answer straight from Joel's prophecy. So, when you see someone speaking in tongues you know they have received the Holy Spirit.

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

Acts 2, 10, and 19 set the pattern. Each confirms speaking in tongues is the direct evidence of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10 - they heard them speak in tongues. That experience confirmed to Peter and others that the individuals had actually received the Holy Spirit. And as seen elsewhere in scripture nothing other than tongues confirms the initial experience; not believing in Jesus, saying a sinner's prayer, or having strong feelings, etc.

Acts 11 - Peter gives an account of what occurred in Acts 10. He indicates the people spoke in tongues proving they had received the Holy Spirit and as such God intended they be water baptized in the name of Jesus as well.

Acts 19:6-7 (This is the last detailed account some 20+ years after the witness of the truth revealed at Pentecost)
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.


A Visible Sign of the Invisible:

Acts 8 - Confirms receiving the Holy Spirit is identifiable.
How could the people be so sure that those who believed and were water baptized had not received the Holy Spirit? And what made the people so sure that the experience had occurred a few days later? (Acts 8:14-19)

Clearly it was not just the laying on of hands that proved the experience occurred. Simon wanted to buy the ability to do what he witnessed when the apostles laid hands on the people. Think about it. There's no need to pay to have the ability to lay hands on a person. It is clear he wanted to buy the power to demonstrate the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

(There must have been a definite, supernatural
sign for Simon the Magician to be impressed enough to
desire it. Simon apparently wanted to buy and use this
miracle in his magical shows; he desired the power to lay
hands on people and have the miraculous sign manifest
itself.) New Birth-Bernard

As revealed elsewhere in scripture, speaking in tongues is the visible sign God chose to reveal when the invisible Holy Spirit initially enters one's body.

God chose the sign. And He certainly does not have to explain Himself. However, some biblical records point to the possible reason why He did it.

1. Tower of Babel = God used tongues as a means to separate people who were disobedient. A reversal of this is seen at Pentecost. God is bringing people back into one body - into unity.

2. James 3 - reveals human beings cannot tame the unruly tongue. However, God can and does when people submit to Him. Speaking in tongues is a conscious act of surrender.

3. There are many external signs when the Holy Spirit is present in an area. As to Pentecost, the wind indicated the Holy Spirit had arrived in the upper room. And flaming tongues sat atop each person revealing that what was about to happen was for all individually.

Speaking in tongues is different in that the sign comes from the inside out after God has taken up residence in one's body.
1 Corinthians 12:8-11, 28 It states that to one is given wisdom, to another knowledge, to another faith, to another healing, to another miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues.
As you can see here the gift of tongues is not given to all the spiritual sign gifts are distributed throughout the body, so for the gift of tongues to be the sign one has the holy spirit that would contradict scripture, you say it tells by story telling that it is plainly spoken yet this verse does not need story telling it plainly showns that the gifts are distributed

 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
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#20
Well, I would say, the text in Acts 2 was only for to proof the jews that this was from God!
Later is nowhere recordet that this speaking in tongues was for to preach the gospel.
Also in beginning of the Pentecostal movement in 1906 they thought that this gift was to preach the gospel in other languages. What finaly not worked.
Very true.
But, do you know WHY it didn't happen?
Acts 2:4
New International Version
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
English Standard Version
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
King James Bible
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
New King James Version
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
New American Standard Bible
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues,
as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.
NO christian baptized in the Holy Spirit can manifest any gift of the Spirit on their own accord.
Some are called,
Some are sent,
some have got up & went.
---> These are the ones who fail, thinking "it's my gift, it's my right to use it."
We have no right to manifest any gift on our own as if we have a license to do so. The Holy Spirit chooses everything or it's not of God.
That's why they failed.