Prophesied by Joel...

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Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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That is not what I stated though. Let's have a look then at what you actually did say to help you remember



You object to my saying I don't give credence to all your experiences and then want to know what experience I have dealing with demons. So, in other words, I have nothing to say if I don't have 'experience.

You took a thread off course and made it into a thread about demons. That was the main objection and I was not alone in saying you should not have done that.

As it is, I have learned you refuse to discuss anything unless the other person appreciates all your 'experience' and as I do not, I am leaving off talking to you at all. Say whatever.
I never objected to you not giving credence to my experience I have said over and over you can believe it or not and the thread was about spiritual warfare so demons are a part of spiritual warfare in fact they are the main factor in it but if I did take it off topic then that is my bad and I apologize however in your quoting me here as far as I can tell I said nothing wrong I did ask how much experience you have in dealing with spiritual warfare and demons and yes it does matter because like any soldier in war you need to know what your doing before you can deal with the battle at hand whether you do or not I cannot say but regardless it doesn't matter as this is not the place for us to do this engagement

my only desire for you is to treat others with love and respect more than one person has said you have attacked or accused them of things it is a pattern that surely you must see if others see it
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
21,055
3,411
113
You can rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic but that ship is still going down. He said baptism washes away sins but now seems to say he does not say that.

Is this the Bible forum or some kind of magicians trick that one can say whatever and the opposite from one post to another and still be credible?

Believe what you want as you will, but I don't know anyone who thinks washing removes sin.

At this point, you will defend anyone who disagrees with me as your little heart stickers attest to.

I am not replying to you again Blain.
I just cannot win with you can I? I was simply pointing some things out and trying to have a reasonable discussion with you but clearly that is not going to happen. very well then have a nice day
 

ocean

Well-known member
Oct 15, 2024
545
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63
I just cannot win with you can I? I was simply pointing some things out and trying to have a reasonable discussion with you but clearly that is not going to happen. very well then have a nice day
why would I want to talk to someone who says the following Blain? Who do you think you are? You are pretty good at twisting things and manipulating as I noted in the other thread.

They have a habbit of acting this way me and ocean had the same issues your having a bit ago being rude making false accusations saying things about me that isn't true the works it is best not to engage if they treat you this way it can be exhausting
Again, I don't wish to discuss with you and keep it up and I will consider it harassment. I have had a number of exchanges with you and I do not wish to continue. So if you have any sense, kindly discuss with someone who agrees with you and consider the fact I don't find it profitable to have what I say distorted.
 

ocean

Well-known member
Oct 15, 2024
545
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As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. For more information, please visit our webpage on "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"

Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name." The first question that must be answered is "when was Paul saved?" '

1. Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." So, Paul heard and believed in Christ on the road to Damascus. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17).

2. It also should be noted that, at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, Paul also received the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)—this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Acts presents a transition period where God’s focus turns from Israel to the Church. The events recorded in Acts are not always normative. With regard to receiving the Holy Spirit, the norm is that a person receives and is permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.

3. The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, translated "calling on His name" refers either to action that is simultaneous with or before that of the main verb, "be baptized." Here Paul’s calling on Christ’s name for salvation preceded his water baptism. The participle may be translated "having called on His name" which makes more sense, as it would clearly indicate the order of the events.

4. Concerning the words, "be baptized, and wash away your sins," because Paul was already cleansed spiritually at the time Christ appeared to him, these words must refer to the symbolism of baptism. Baptism is a picture of God’s inner work of washing away sin (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 Peter 3:21).
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,490
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Interesting. So have you changed your mind about baptism then? There are many many posts wherein you say that water baptism cleanses from sin. All a person has to do is a simple search and they will find them
Nope, I have not changed my mind.

I've posted Peter's words time and again. He makes it clear that believing in Jesus precedes the need to believe and obey the rest of the gospel message of salvation:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine..." Acts 2:36-42
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,490
1,193
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When someone, as do you, holds views most Christians would not agree with, it can confuse others. This is a public forum and what you say and have said is public so don't make what I wrote into some kind of personal attack on you. It is not. You have some different beliefs so unless you have changed your mind about them, it seems relevant to know about them.
You've completely missed the point. Discussing different biblical viewpoints is common. What is not is throwing in personal attacks. Hope at some point you can see the difference.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,490
1,193
113
I don't know your point. Are you saying we debated or discussed what ?
I may have been mistaken. But I thought we discussed viewpoints regarding at what point a person experiences the NT rebirth that is essential to one's salvation.

Your post indicated you believe people are saved prior to obeying the requirements detailed in the gospel message. Whereas, I see scripture as revealing belief in Jesus along with repentance, being water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin and being filled with the Holy Ghost as well. Various scripture reveal each of these aspects have a role in the NT rebirth experience.

What Peter preached in it's entirety is the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation that brings about the sealing/giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Ephesians.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,490
1,193
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You are Oneness?
I do believe that in Jesus dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily because the bible says so. (Col. 2:9)

I find it interesting when people bring up denominations. The word DOES NOT SAY be ye doers of your denominations beliefs. It says, receive with meekness the engrafted word that is able to save your soul; be doers of the Word not hearers only deceiving yourselves. (James 1:21-22)

Something popped into my mind years ago about the word denominations that could very well be true. If the letters are twisted around something interesting is revealed. Denominations becomes Demon i nations. And what better description for institutions that pick and choose aspects of the word of God that are appealing to me, myself and I, rather than accept the sum of God's word.

The one world religion is right around the corner people need to read their bibles.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,322
4,467
113
I may have been mistaken. But I thought we discussed viewpoints regarding at what point a person experiences the NT rebirth that is essential to one's salvation.

Your post indicated you believe people are saved prior to obeying the requirements detailed in the gospel message. Whereas, I see scripture as revealing belief in Jesus along with repentance, being water baptized in the name of Jesus for remission of sin and being filled with the Holy Ghost as well. Various scripture reveal each of these aspects have a role in the NT rebirth experience.

What Peter preached in it's entirety is the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation that brings about the sealing/giving of the gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in Ephesians.
Thanks for taking the time to read through what I shared. My aim was to let Scripture speak for itself and to highlight the consistent message throughout the New Testament regarding belief, baptism, and the authority found in the name of Jesus.


When we look at passages like Romans 10:9-11 and John 3:16-19, it's clear that faith in Jesus is the foundation of salvation. But as I pointed out, "believing" in the biblical sense isn't just intellectual agreement—it involves obedience to His commands, like we see in Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:19.


The phrase “in the name of Jesus” is so much more than a formula—it represents acting under His divine authority. That’s why Peter’s response in Acts 2:38 and again in Acts 4 is so powerful. He was boldly declaring that everything they were doing—preaching, healing, baptizing—was being done by the authority of the risen Christ, even in the face of opposition.


There’s no other name under heaven by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12), and that message is just as urgent today as it was then.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,322
4,467
113
I do believe that in Jesus dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily because the bible says so. (Col. 2:9)

I find it interesting when people bring up denominations. The word DOES NOT SAY be ye doers of your denominations beliefs. It says, receive with meekness the engrafted word that is able to save your soul; be doers of the Word not hearers only deceiving yourselves. (James 1:21-22)

Something popped into my mind years ago about the word denominations that could very well be true. If the letters are twisted around something interesting is revealed. Denominations becomes Demon i nations. And what better description for institutions that pick and choose aspects of the word of God that are appealing to me, myself and I, rather than accept the sum of God's word.

The one world religion is right around the corner people need to read their bibles.
I mean no offense, but it does speak to the position of baptism in the name of Jesus, which is actually said By the authority of Old English tradition.

I see water baptism in the name of Jesus and the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit just as authoritative; both are valid ways to water baptize. Yet water Baptism doesn't save you. It is an act of obedience one does after they are saved.
 

ocean

Well-known member
Oct 15, 2024
545
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Nope, I have not changed my mind.
So you believe that water cleanses from sin then.

You've completely missed the point. Discussing different biblical viewpoints is common. What is not is throwing in personal attacks. Hope at some point you can see the difference.
Your claim is false. You still have not addressed the scripture I posted that shows that everyone does not speak in tongues and really I do not care if you do or don't at this point. The Bible is clear that people have different gifts and it is also clear that not everyone speaks in tongues but you ignore that because that is not your personal belief. Then you claim I have attacked you. I have noticed that is the favorite claim of those who have their beliefs questioned or someone points out that scripture does not agree with what they are saying.

This entire exchange was because you deny that everyone does not speak in tongues and you have twisted the scripture one way and another and falsely claim you are attacked. So it seems you will continue to say that if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved and that type of belief has turned many a person away from tongues and IMO, that makes you kind of responsible just as those who are cessationists are responsible for their beliefs.

I have seen some pretty harsh debates in this forum (that I have not been any part of) where no one even states the other is attacking. But if you wish to hide behind that sentiment, you do that. You simply desire to walk away from admitting that you are incorrect when you say everyone must speak in tongues. As you hang salvation on that premise, it is a serious claim and is is not biblical to assert such
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,322
4,467
113
So you believe that water cleanses from sin then.



Your claim is false. You still have not addressed the scripture I posted that shows that everyone does not speak in tongues and really I do not care if you do or don't at this point. The Bible is clear that people have different gifts and it is also clear that not everyone speaks in tongues but you ignore that because that is not your personal belief. Then you claim I have attacked you. I have noticed that is the favorite claim of those who have their beliefs questioned or someone points out that scripture does not agree with what they are saying.

This entire exchange was because you deny that everyone does not speak in tongues and you have twisted the scripture one way and another and falsely claim you are attacked. So it seems you will continue to say that if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved and that type of belief has turned many a person away from tongues and IMO, that makes you kind of responsible just as those who are cessationists are responsible for their beliefs.

I have seen some pretty harsh debates in this forum (that I have not been any part of) where no one even states the other is attacking. But if you wish to hide behind that sentiment, you do that. You simply desire to walk away from admitting that you are incorrect when you say everyone must speak in tongues. As you hang salvation on that premise, it is a serious claim and is is not biblical to assert such
Hi Ocean,

I wanted to ask your thoughts on something I've been reading. Do you see the context of 1 Corinthians chapters 12 through 14 as describing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, given by the Spirit for use within the church setting?


Also, in chapters 12 and 14, do you see where the gift of tongues is presented as both for personal edification—when there is no interpretation—and as speaking not to man, but to God, speaking mysteries?


And lastly, when chapter 14 mentions personal communication with God through tongues, do you believe that this kind of personal edification is something available to all believers?


Looking forward to hearing your insights!
 

ocean

Well-known member
Oct 15, 2024
545
257
63
Hi Ocean,

I wanted to ask your thoughts on something I've been reading. Do you see the context of 1 Corinthians chapters 12 through 14 as describing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, given by the Spirit for use within the church setting?

Yes. It's my understanding Paul was correcting the incorrect use of gifts, tongues in particular.


Also, in chapters 12 and 14, do you see where the gift of tongues is presented as both for personal edification—when there is no interpretation—and as speaking not to man, but to God, speaking mysteries?

Yes. I don't think there is any problem with people praying in tongues in church...quietly. And certainly in personal life and edification and I've experienced that often enough myself. IMO, it seems it is the rare church that actually follows what Paul writes. Two or three at most giving a message in tongues is another thing I have not heard. It is my experience that one person might do that and then another states what they think the interpretation is. I don't always agree with the interpretation either LOL! I have hears some pretty weird ones.


And lastly, when chapter 14 mentions personal communication with God through tongues, do you believe that this kind of personal edification is something available to all believers?

You know, I do think it is available to all believers. Yet I have known a few who pray for the gift and do not receive it or it takes a long time before they receive it. I do not think all gifts are available to all believers but tongues, is very useful for individuals in their personal life. I surely do not believe you are not saved if you don't have that gift. Sadly, I have even heard some fake that gift and it raises the hairs on the back of your neck



Looking forward to hearing your insights!
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,322
4,467
113
Hi Ocean,

I wanted to ask your thoughts on something I've been reading. Do you see the context of 1 Corinthians chapters 12 through 14 as describing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, given by the Spirit for use within the church setting?

Yes. It's my understanding Paul was correcting the incorrect use of gifts, tongues in particular.


Also, in chapters 12 and 14, do you see where the gift of tongues is presented as both for personal edification—when there is no interpretation—and as speaking not to man, but to God, speaking mysteries?

Yes. I don't think there is any problem with people praying in tongues in church...quietly. And certainly in personal life and edification and I've experienced that often enough myself. IMO, it seems it is the rare church that actually follows what Paul writes. Two or three at most giving a message in tongues is another thing I have not heard. It is my experience that one person might do that and then another states what they think the interpretation is. I don't always agree with the interpretation either LOL! I have hears some pretty weird ones.


And lastly, when chapter 14 mentions personal communication with God through tongues, do you believe that this kind of personal edification is something available to all believers?

You know, I do think it is available to all believers. Yet I have known a few who pray for the gift and do not receive it or it takes a long time before they receive it. I do not think all gifts are available to all believers but tongues, is very useful for individuals in their personal life. I surely do not believe you are not saved if you don't have that gift. Sadly, I have even heard some fake that gift and it raises the hairs on the back of your neck



Looking forward to hearing your insights!
Thank you for your response.

One more qestion, please. In 1corthians Paul says in chapter 14

5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.


Prophesying is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit contextually in 1cor chapters 12 through 14. same as Preaching.

Tongues and interpretation of tongues are equal to prophesying per verses 5 1cor 14. And those who speak in tongues are to pray that THEY interpret.

So, in the setting of the church, would it not be wise that IF one is going to bring the message in tongues, they pray for the interpretation and say that instead of speaking in Tongues, Then let everyone judge according to the word of God., unless the Holy Spirit has moved on a person to speak, then another one brings the interpretation?
 

ocean

Well-known member
Oct 15, 2024
545
257
63
Thank you for your response.

One more qestion, please. In 1corthians Paul says in chapter 14

5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.


Prophesying is speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit contextually in 1cor chapters 12 through 14. same as Preaching.

Tongues and interpretation of tongues are equal to prophesying per verses 5 1cor 14. And those who speak in tongues are to pray that THEY interpret.

So, in the setting of the church, would it not be wise that IF one is going to bring the message in tongues, they pray for the interpretation and say that instead of speaking in Tongues, Then let everyone judge according to the word of God., unless the Holy Spirit has moved on a person to speak, then another one brings the interpretation?
Yes I know what prophesying in the NT is. Too many think it means predicting the future but the main intent is to 'edify', expound on what is taught or as is the case for us, studied or read. (edification) Well if a person prays for the interpretation, and they receive that gift, then I would think they should just go ahead in whatever language is spoken in that meeting/church.

I would not speak (as in a message) in public in tongues but I have just said the message in English so I get how that works.

Mind you though, we are told to let the prophets (which I certainly do not consider myself to be) speak two or three and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. I have never seen this happen. Have you?

But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. I Cor.14:3

v.4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.