PROVING THE TRINITY IS A BIBLICAL DOCTRINE

Zmouth · Jul 30, 2018

I wouldn't call it banning, that is so middle ages. I look at it more like withdrawing their grace that allows one to participate in the discussions in the different forums on 'their' website.

But if I might asked, why would you remain a member on a website that you think requires you to compromise your beliefs on your Creator? But then again, it would really be ironic if you claim that certain people will be banned from heaven for not having certain beliefs since it is written thy kingdom come thy shall be done on earth as it is in heaven.

shrume · Jul 30, 2018

Zmouth said:

Whatever.

I call it banning because that’s what it is.

I am not compromising my beliefs. There’s plenty of other things to talk about.

At this point I do not believe that the thing others believe that I am convinced is wrong will keep them from being saved. If that changes, I’ll shout it from the rooftops.

JB2018 · Jul 30, 2018

bluto said:

I will first present the following "syllogism" and then explain the syllogism as it realtes to the Trinity. What is a "syllogism?" A syllogism in logic is a form of reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn from two given premises, one major presmise and one minor premise.

IF the Bible teaches that there is one God

and

IF in the Bible The Father is identified as God

and

IF in the Bible His Son is identified as God

and

IF in the Bible their Spirit is identified as God

THEN the doctrine of the Trinit is valid

OR

The Bible is wrong.

Now, the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be understood, argued or refuted by appealing to any single passage in the Bible. That is because it is a systematic theology in the proper sens of the term "theology"--the "study" or "knowledge of God, and is drawn from the WHOLE Bible, as any valid systematic theology should be. It does not rely on any single verse in the Bible for its representation and similarly, it cannot be refuted by any single verse in the Bible.

It is a doctrine that explains the nature OF THE ONE TRUE GOD described in the Bible, and is necessarily drawn from a HARMONIZATION of ALL of Scripture and therefore can only be understood from a view that accounts for ALL the Bible. Explaining the nature of the one God is the whole point of the doctrine of the Trinity. If you will examine the Bible thoroughly you should be able to quickly discover that there are threeand ONLY three "persons" who are identified as God by the following COMBINATION of literary means listed below.

The Bible identifies God by

1) His names
2) His titles
3) His unique attributes
4) His unique actions
50 His worship
Let me say I am not aware of any other literary, contextual means by which the Bible clearly identifies God. I could be wrong, but I think this list is comprehensive. So, let's go to #1 His names.

CALLED by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly or indirectly, usually both. How about "El Shaddai" as "God Almighty." Or "Elohim." "El Roi" the God Who sees.

2) His titles. Who's identified as (Lord, king, savior, redeemer etc.)

3) Attributed with the UNIQUE characteristis of God, (omnipresence, omnipotence, omnicient, eternality, etc.)

4) His unique actions. CREDITED with (creation, orgin of God's word, salvation of men etc.)

5) WORSHIPED and/or given the honor, reverence and position due to GOD ALONE.
I am NOT saying that the Father, Son and Holy Sirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in very place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of these 5. NOR am I saying that each person of the Trinity is represented equally by ALL FIVE of these means of identifying God.

I am sayin that each person of the Trinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God as listed above. Now, there is one last thing I want to say regarding the doctrine of the Trinity. I DO NOT believe Trinitariansim is a "REQUIREMENT" for salvation. It is th "RESULT" of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the FACT that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and someho miss that He is God.

Here is what Romans 8:9-11 states, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. vs10, And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. vs11, But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

There is one God! not God in three persons.

Zmouth · Jul 30, 2018

jaybird88 said:

Say what? If they wouldn't have ever disobeyed him then why did they forsake him and flee?

But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Matt 26:56

I take it that by forsook simply meant that they departed from him so they could flee to the place where they would see him coming in his cloud with the 144,00 and set up the 1000 year kingdom over all the nations of the world. So where were did he tell the disciples he would see them after his resurrection? Yet instead found them hiding behind locked doors in Jerusalem in fear of the Jews. Is that really obeying?

Noose · Jul 31, 2018

bluto said:

God is never two or three persons in anything, just one person with three distinct authorities as shown here:

John 14: 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you.
.....23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

John 16: 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

1. The comforter was already there with the disciples
2. If Jesus doesn't go, the comforter can not come but if Jesus goes the comforter comes
3. Jesus doesn't leave them comfortless, He comes to them after a short while.
4. The Father and the son comes in them to make their home

This doesn't demonstrate three distinct persons in one being but just one person operating in three distinct authorities.
IOW, Jesus was saying that He is the comforter living with them but had to go and come in another form in a different authority to indwell them- hence Jesus must go for the comforter to come, if He doesn't go the comforter wouldn't come yet the comforter would remain there with them. The authority of the Father (who is Jesus) indwelling the believer is the authority of the Holy spirit.
Jesus also plainly says He won't leave them comfortless because He was coming into them shortly. How clear can a passage get?

Isaiah 9:6 says the same thing. The child's authority would be the Father/Son/Holy spirit.

jb · Jul 31, 2018

Noose said:

God is never two or three persons in anything, just one person with three distinct authorities as shown here:

John 14: 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another comforter to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you.
.....23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

John 16: 7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the comforter will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

1. The comforter was already there with the disciples
2. If Jesus doesn't go, the comforter can not come but if Jesus goes the comforter comes
3. Jesus doesn't leave them comfortless, He comes to them after a short while.
4. The Father and the son comes in them to make their home

This doesn't demonstrate three distinct persons in one being but just one person operating in three distinct authorities.
IOW, Jesus was saying that He is the comforter living with them but had to go and come in another form in a different authority to indwell them- hence Jesus must go for the comforter to come, if He doesn't go the comforter wouldn't come yet the comforter would remain there with them. The authority of the Father (who is Jesus) indwelling the believer is the authority of the Holy spirit.
Jesus also plainly says He won't leave them comfortless because He was coming into them shortly. How clear can a passage get?

Isaiah 9:6 says the same thing. The child's authority would be the Father/Son/Holy spirit.

Oneness/Jesus Only (Modalistic Monarchianism) is what you are putting forth here, and that was condemned by the early Church each time it was propounded, by Praxeas, Noetus and Sabellius as "destructive heresy!"

There is only one doctrine accepted and that is taught by the Scriptures and that is The Trinity, anything else is error!

Noose · Jul 31, 2018

jb said:

who are these people? they were not appointed by God.
Trinity is not in the scripture, it is against the scripture and it is illogical; bu you can try to explain it.

bluto · Jul 31, 2018

Noose said:

Yep, your a "Modalist" alright!
mod·al·ism
ˈmodlˌizəm/
noun
noun: modalism

1.
Theology
the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature." So when Jesus CLEARLY says that He and the Father will live in a believer you mean three authorities will live in him huh? And when Jesus CLEARLY says at John 14:16 that the Father will send ANOTHER person, the Helper/Holy Spirit He is really sending another authority to live in a him huh?
Then to make matters worse, you have Jesus Christ being the authority of the Holy Spirit despite the fact that the Bible teaches that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are "NOT" one and the same person. What makes the three persons of the trinity one is their shared nature/essense. Just like you are one in nature and essence with other human persons but you are not the same person as your father or mother or anybody else for that matter. Three authorities, ugh!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

OstrichSmiling · Jul 31, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

That's true if you wish to ignore the historic facts on record. But why would a Christian wish to call Eusebius' record a lie and therein Eusebius himself a liar?
First, it is common knowledge among scholars and lay persons who invest time in Exegesis that the Biblical "autographs", original writings", are not available. That in itself is a great loss. What Biblical scholars do know is what we do have as the Bible today is derived from copies made throughout the ages.
And as most know, the Nicene council and other Roman convened entities had a vested interest in politicizing holy writ.

Does Matthew 28:19 Have Added Text?
The Bible truth on the Godhead explained

Introduction
Below are many historical quotes from theologians and other writers that heavily indicate that Matthew 28:19 has been altered.

It must be remembered that we have no known manuscripts that were written in the first, second or third centuries. There is a gap of over three hundred years between when Matthew wrote his epistle and our earliest manuscript copies. (It also took over three hundred years for the Catholic Church to evolve into what the “early church fathers” wanted it to become.)
This is what my research revealed. Eusebius was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as “the Father of Church History.” He wrote prolifically and his most celebrated work is his Ecclesiastical History, a history of the Church from the Apostolic period until his own time. Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings including Matthew 28:19 several times. But he never quotes it as it appears in modern Bibles. He always finishes the verse with the words “in my name.”

Does Matthew 28:19 Have Added Text?
The following excerpts come from an unaltered book of Matthew that could have even been the original or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Thus Eusebius informs us of the actual words Jesus spoke to his disciples in Matthew 28:19.

“With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” — (Proof of the Gospel by Eusebius, Book III, ch 6, 132 (a), p. 152)
“But while the disciples of Jesus were most likely either saying thus, or thinking thus, the Master solved their difficulties, by the addition of one phrase, saying they should triumph “In MY NAME.” And the power of His name being so great, that the apostle says: “God has given him a name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,” He shewed the virtue of the power in His Name concealed from the crowd when He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all the nations in my Name.” He also most accurately forecasts the future when He says: “for this gospel must first be preached to all the world, for a witness to all nations.” — (Proof of the Gospel by Eusebius, Book III, ch 7, 136 (a-d), p. 157)

“Who said to them; “Make disciples of all the nations in my Name.” — (Eusebius, Proof of the Gospel, Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159)
In Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read, “relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”
And in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read, “Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”

Eusebius was present at the council of Nicea and was involved in the debates between Arias and the pagan view of Athanasius that became the trinity doctrine. If the manuscripts he had in front of him read “in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” he would never have quoted instead, “in my name.” So it appears that the earliest manuscripts read “in my name,” and the phrase was enlarged to reflect the orthodox position as Trinitarian influence spread.
Below is Matthew 28:19 from the King James Bible.
Matthew 28:19 “Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

Noose · Jul 31, 2018

bluto said:

So what have you done here? nothing.

The verses i quoted utterly destroys the idea of three distinct persons in one being. Jesus clearly said He is the comforter, the reason the promised comforter could not come until Jesus goes, if Jesus doesn't go the comforter can not come- this is not how distinct persons work.

Q. Where was Jesus going?
A. He attained the authority of the Father and then comes back in them with the authority of the Holy spirit, being in them forever, fulfilling their needs.

There are no three persons coming in someone.

Here we go again:

John 14:8 Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffises us. 9Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father? 10Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12Truly, truly, I say to you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to my Father. 13And whatever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 16:
12I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it to you. 15All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it to you.

16A little while, and you shall not see me: and again, a little while, and you shall see me, because I go to the Father.

Again, Jesus is not going to ask someone like we do here, He is going to attain the authority of the Father and then be glorified in the son (disciples). In case you don't understand, Jesus is saying He is the Father.

OstrichSmiling · Jul 31, 2018

Sisters and brothers, just to interject as this thread and others like it are sure to produce many more pages of argument and counter argument from our respective positions on any one topic in them.

Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”

John 4 Mounce version is linked. NKJV is posted below because it is easier to afford a copy and paste here.
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Very often we argue semantics and forget this wisdom that Jesus delivered to the Samaritan woman at the well. In those times Jews did not mingle with Samaritans. Recall the parable of the good Samaritan. Jesus did speak to the Samaritan woman and shared with her his true identity because she first had faith in Messiah.

We are indwelt by that holy spirit that leads us into all truth and God's laws are written in our heart. We may then proceed in this world guided by the most high, serving the will of the father as living vessels of the good news and temples that carry the proof the old has passed away and the new is come. We are reborn in the spirit of the anointed and everywhere we go we are a testament of the Gospel.

We are led by the holy spirit. "The Word", is the word that saves. We argue semantics and histories that pertain to what was compiled centuries ago as the authorized version of a closed canon. Live by the teaching and leading of The Word and don't be discouraged or rebuffed in debates over the content of the written word. We really have nothing to prove.

Be Blessed.

jaybird88 · Jul 31, 2018

Zmouth said:

Say what? If they wouldn't have ever disobeyed him then why did they forsake him and flee?

But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Matt 26:56

I take it that by forsook simply meant that they departed from him so they could flee to the place where they would see him coming in his cloud with the 144,00 and set up the 1000 year kingdom over all the nations of the world. So where were did he tell the disciples he would see them after his resurrection? Yet instead found them hiding behind locked doors in Jerusalem in fear of the Jews. Is that really obeying?

where did Jesus command them to present themselves at His crucifixion? you know that would have been a death sentence right?

Zmouth · Jul 31, 2018

jaybird88 said:

You lost me there bro since I referring to the place that there were suppose to be after his resurrection.

jaybird88 said:

Why is that?

30 The LORD your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes;
31 And in the wilderness, where thou hast seen how that the LORD thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went, until ye came into this place.
32 Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God,
Deuteronomy 1

Zmouth · Jul 31, 2018

Noose said:

No more illogical than claiming eternal and immortal are the same, the only way to discern is by principles, which are not man made doctrines.

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:14

Noose · Aug 1, 2018

Zmouth said:

No more illogical than claiming eternal and immortal are the same, the only way to discern is by principles, which are not man made doctrines.

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:14

What do you mean?

vic1980 · Aug 1, 2018

Dino246 said:

If you have time to spare , i would suggest that you may read upon Justinian Code . It was one of the most brutal decree's that was establish to persecute many believers , that did not agree with Rome theological definition of there trinitarian God.

This decree was put to a stop in the year 1798 , by Napoleon Bonaparte while sending his General to capture Pope Pius VI.

Pope taken prisoner by General Berthier of the French army in 1798.

In a few years , Napoleon introduced The Napoleonic Code , it differ from Justinian’s in important ways: it incorporated all kinds of earlier rules, not only legislation; it was not a collection of edited extracts, but a comprehensive rewrite; its structure was much more rational; it had no religious content; and it was written in the vernacular.

The Napoleonic Code

Napoleonic Code

I have written a thread upon this decree , but have yet to finish it due to open time availability , but here is thee introduction to the code.

Book I.

Title I.
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Book I of the revised edition of the Code of our Lord and sacred Emperor Justinian.

Concerning the High Trinity of the Catholic faith , and that no one shall dare to dispute about publicly.

This is a very important document that preachers do not study upon , but once you have and act knowledge what is written within this decree , and have examine the historic life process of how long ago was this consider the law in dark ages .

Then and only then , you will understand clearly , why there are many groups of believers in Jesus Christ our Lord , that detest such a doctrine.

How did the bishop of Rome received its power and authority.

Shalom

vic1980 · Aug 1, 2018

Why did thee Protestant Reformers call the Papacy thee Anti Christ , and why are so many protestant churches accepted papal supremacy not only in america by around the world.

The adversary is very crafty when it comes to doctrine , he has had so much time , to twist the meaning of scriptures , just as he tried to when tempting Messiah .

But what exactly is Rome theological definition of this trinitarian God ? Let one of there Vatican City King explain to us all in there own words.

John Paul II

In the Pope own words in a book named , Crossing the Threshold of Hope , it says the following .

The Leader of the Catholic Church is defined by the faith as the Vicar of Jesus Christ ( and is accepted as such by believers ) . The Pope is considered the man on earth who represents the Son of God , who " takes the place " of the Second Person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity .

" Have no fear when people call me the " Vicar of Christ , " when they say to me " Holy Father , " or your " "Holiness ," or use titles similar to these which seem even inimical to the Gospel. "

- Crossing the threshold of Hope -

by Pope John Paul II pp. 3 , 6

Now you have a better stance why Vatican II , has work tirelessly for many years , to unite the Protestant Churches with Rome by a decree titled , The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification or JDDJ.

Shalom

Endoscopy · Aug 1, 2018

bluto said:

The definitive proof of the trinity is the Great Commission.

Matthew 28 NIV
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

AMPC

The Great Commission
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted [that it was really He]. 18 Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority (all power of absolute rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations [help the people to learn of Me, believe in Me, and obey My words], baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always [remaining with you perpetually—regardless of circumstance, and on every occasion], even to the end of the age.”

bluto · Aug 1, 2018

Noose said:

Oh boy, what utter nonsense. Not only is Jesus the person of the Holy Spirit (according to you) but now your very last sentence says, "Jesus is saying He is the Father." That is classic oneness pentecostal teaching and that is why ther are considered a non-christian cult.

So noose, from what I'm reading you believe Jesus is God the Father based on two verses, Isaiah 9:6 and John 14:9. Are there any others you have to prove the gross error that Jesus Christ is God the Father? So I have a question for you based on Mark 1:11, "and a voice came out of the heavens; "Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased." Tell me, is Jesus (who you say is God the Father) the one speaking about Himself who is His only beloved self in the mode of the Son that He is pleased with?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

jaybird88 · Aug 1, 2018

Noose said:

thats one way to get your doctrine spread.

PROVING THE TRINITY IS A BIBLICAL DOCTRINE

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