Question for those demanding, hoping, believing - Christ abolished the Torah!

[memberofthebride]

Matthew 24

3 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)? The Time of the End.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Either you believe the words of Jesus Christ - or you do not.

In Matthew 24, Jesus Christ is warning about a time of trouble so horrendous there has never, in man’s 6000-year history, been a time like it.

When this horrendous time of trouble is later revealed to John by Jesus Christ, it is beyond comprehension.

Here is the question;

Jesus Christ is returning soon, maybe sooner than many think judging by world events, in Great Wrath to punish all nations.

We all are aware of the 10 Commandments and the Torah and the fact most Christian’s believe they were nailed to the cross because they are “harsh” and “burdensome” and “against us”.

If the Torah, which contains the Commandments, the Statutes and the Judgements, if the Torah had been abolished by Christ,

what can Jesus Christ use as legal justification for putting to death possibly 90% of humanity at the Time of the End?

If the God who made us does not, Himself, follow a sound moral righteous set of rules that cannot be altered or changed, we are in deep deep trouble. How would or could you trust His word?

There is a contract in the Torah, in Leviticus 26: 1 -39, giving Jesus Christ the legal right to punish and put to death for transgressing my commandments,

“IF” the Torah no longer existed –what gives Jesus Christ the legal right to take human life? And under what conditions would He be allowed to do so and where is that found?

In most of the courts of this world, to put a person to death, they must be charged and convicted of a crime, transgressing some law.

Can, will the GOD that made us, put 7 billion to death for no legal reason, no crime?

For that matter, how was God legally justified in putting to death all but 8 in Noah’s flood? 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted “ His Way “ upon the earth.

If the world did not know the Torah existed until it was given to Moses, How was God justified in putting to death those in Noah’s day?

They had to know Adam knew, Enoch knew 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; Noah, Preaching his Way , warning of the punishment to coming.

Bottom line:

If the Torah had been abolished, God has no legal right to punish mankind.

Logically, legally please explain how Christ can take the lives of 7 or 8 billion without the Torah?

If there is no law codifying sin -- there is no sin -- no sin -- no penalty of death.

 

[Gideon300]

Matthew 24

3 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)? The Time of the End.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Either you believe the words of Jesus Christ - or you do not.

In Matthew 24, Jesus Christ is warning about a time of trouble so horrendous there has never, in man’s 6000-year history, been a time like it.

When this horrendous time of trouble is later revealed to John by Jesus Christ, it is beyond comprehension.

Here is the question;

Jesus Christ is returning soon, maybe sooner than many think judging by world events, in Great Wrath to punish all nations.

We all are aware of the 10 Commandments and the Torah and the fact most Christian’s believe they were nailed to the cross because they are “harsh” and “burdensome” and “against us”.

If the Torah, which contains the Commandments, the Statutes and the Judgements, if the Torah had been abolished by Christ,

what can Jesus Christ use as legal justification for putting to death possibly 90% of humanity at the Time of the End?

If the God who made us does not, Himself, follow a sound moral righteous set of rules that cannot be altered or changed, we are in deep deep trouble. How would or could you trust His word?

There is a contract in the Torah, in Leviticus 26: 1 -39, giving Jesus Christ the legal right to punish and put to death for transgressing my commandments,

“IF” the Torah no longer existed –what gives Jesus Christ the legal right to take human life? And under what conditions would He be allowed to do so and where is that found?

In most of the courts of this world, to put a person to death, they must be charged and convicted of a crime, transgressing some law.

Can, will the GOD that made us, put 7 billion to death for no legal reason, no crime?

For that matter, how was God legally justified in putting to death all but 8 in Noah’s flood? 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted “ His Way “ upon the earth.

If the world did not know the Torah existed until it was given to Moses, How was God justified in putting to death those in Noah’s day?

They had to know Adam knew, Enoch knew 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; Noah, Preaching his Way , warning of the punishment to coming.

Bottom line:

If the Torah had been abolished, God has no legal right to punish mankind.

Logically, legally please explain how Christ can take the lives of 7 or 8 billion without the Torah?

If there is no law codifying sin -- there is no sin -- no sin -- no penalty of death.

Why do you ignore God's word? God destroyed the whole human race apart from 8 people. There was no Torah then. Do you even know what the Torah is? It's the first five books of the Bible. How could Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy be written before Abraham had been born?

 

[Mem]

Moses revealed God as the Law giver, but Jesus revealed God as the Life giver. Jesus revealed God as Father, and if you are not found in His Son, well then there's only one other designation for you.

 

[memberofthebride]

Moses revealed God as the Law giver, but Jesus revealed God as the Life giver. Jesus revealed God as Father, and if you are not found in His Son, well then there's only one other designation for you.

First, it was Jesus Christ that spoke the Torah to Moses. Jesus Christ is our Maker, HE made Adam. He does the Father's will.

If you read the question, it is a serious question as the vast majority of Christians believe Christ abolished the Torah.

With out the Torah which codifies sin and gives Christ the legal right to put transgressor to death for their sins, How then will Christ put to death the billions that refuse to obey?
and HE will!

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

Do you not want to know -- what not to do --- so Christ will not put you to death?
Christ is not saying: "those that do not believe, bring hither"

 

[memberofthebride]

Why do you ignore God's word? God destroyed the whole human race apart from 8 people. There was no Torah then. Do you even know what the Torah is? It's the first five books of the Bible. How could Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy be written before Abraham had been born?

Genesis 26
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
the word "law" is the Hebrew word Torah #8451

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

God has ONLY ONE WAY which is revealed by the Torah, which Jesus obeyed without sin and taught to His followers.

5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world

172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness.

Noah preached the Commandments to the world before the flood - so all that drown had no excuse.

The Torah reveals to man, the Mind, Nature and Divine Holy Righteousness of God

The Torah existed before creation began

 

[ZNP]

Matthew 24

3 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)? The Time of the End.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Either you believe the words of Jesus Christ - or you do not.

In Matthew 24, Jesus Christ is warning about a time of trouble so horrendous there has never, in man’s 6000-year history, been a time like it.

When this horrendous time of trouble is later revealed to John by Jesus Christ, it is beyond comprehension.

Here is the question;

Jesus Christ is returning soon, maybe sooner than many think judging by world events, in Great Wrath to punish all nations.

We all are aware of the 10 Commandments and the Torah and the fact most Christian’s believe they were nailed to the cross because they are “harsh” and “burdensome” and “against us”.

If the Torah, which contains the Commandments, the Statutes and the Judgements, if the Torah had been abolished by Christ,

what can Jesus Christ use as legal justification for putting to death possibly 90% of humanity at the Time of the End?

If the God who made us does not, Himself, follow a sound moral righteous set of rules that cannot be altered or changed, we are in deep deep trouble. How would or could you trust His word?

There is a contract in the Torah, in Leviticus 26: 1 -39, giving Jesus Christ the legal right to punish and put to death for transgressing my commandments,

“IF” the Torah no longer existed –what gives Jesus Christ the legal right to take human life? And under what conditions would He be allowed to do so and where is that found?

In most of the courts of this world, to put a person to death, they must be charged and convicted of a crime, transgressing some law.

Can, will the GOD that made us, put 7 billion to death for no legal reason, no crime?

For that matter, how was God legally justified in putting to death all but 8 in Noah’s flood? 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted “ His Way “ upon the earth.

If the world did not know the Torah existed until it was given to Moses, How was God justified in putting to death those in Noah’s day?

They had to know Adam knew, Enoch knew 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; Noah, Preaching his Way , warning of the punishment to coming.

Bottom line:

If the Torah had been abolished, God has no legal right to punish mankind.

Logically, legally please explain how Christ can take the lives of 7 or 8 billion without the Torah?

If there is no law codifying sin -- there is no sin -- no sin -- no penalty of death.

I don't know where you get your information but no respectable Bible teacher teaches that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross. The commandments nailed to the cross which were against us were all the regulations for the Jewish religion that separate Jews from Gentiles. If you are a Gentile those regulations are against you, clearly against you. Especially the three pillars of the Jewish religion: keeping the sabbath, dietary laws, and circumcision.

What the new testament teaches is that Jesus fulfilled the law on the Sabbath by being in the grave for the entire sabbath day, that was His day of rest. If we abide in the death of Christ we are "keeping the sabbath". The dietary laws were allegorical, the clean and unclean animals refers to those who sanctified and those who aren't. The two criteria, chewing the cud refers to eating the word of God, and cloven hoofs refers to our walk being marked by the cross of Christ. As for circumcision we are told clearly that the cross of Christ circumcises our heart. Hence, Jesus Christ broke down the middle wall of separation and has joined Jews and Gentiles together, He is the corner stone.

Now if you notice neither circumcision nor dietary regulations are in the ten commandments. But keeping the sabbath is. The only way you can keep the ten commandments is if you are abiding in the death of Christ and walking in the resurrection. That means your daily walk has been touched by the cross, your heart has been circumcised by the cross and you daily eat the word of God.

 

[memberofthebride]

I don't know where you get your information but no respectable Bible teacher teaches that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross. The commandments nailed to the cross which were against us were all the regulations for the Jewish religion that separate Jews from Gentiles. If you are a Gentile those regulations are against you, clearly against you. Especially the three pillars of the Jewish religion: keeping the sabbath, dietary laws, and circumcision.

What the new testament teaches is that Jesus fulfilled the law on the Sabbath by being in the grave for the entire sabbath day, that was His day of rest. If we abide in the death of Christ we are "keeping the sabbath". The dietary laws were allegorical, the clean and unclean animals refers to those who sanctified and those who aren't. The two criteria, chewing the cud refers to eating the word of God, and cloven hoofs refers to our walk being marked by the cross of Christ. As for circumcision we are told clearly that the cross of Christ circumcises our heart. Hence, Jesus Christ broke down the middle wall of separation and has joined Jews and Gentiles together, He is the corner stone.

Now if you notice neither circumcision nor dietary regulations are in the ten commandments. But keeping the sabbath is. The only way you can keep the ten commandments is if you are abiding in the death of Christ and walking in the resurrection. That means your daily walk has been touched by the cross, your heart has been circumcised by the cross and you daily eat the word of God.

I have read repeatedly on this site -- the Torah, the book where the 10 Commands, the Commands of Jesus Christ, are found, has been abolished, ended on and on.

Human nature naturally hates the Torah and only the Father can change that fact.
I agree with very very little that you wrote.

you, like many, use little phrases like "touched by the cross", "abide in the death of Christ", another one I have heard, "the law is the shadow of the reality" --- all meaningless. can you explain what they mean in terms that are understandable?

The Sacrifice Christ made for me, by pouring His blood upon the ground and dying ---paid my debt for all my sins. this I understand.

We are so far apart, the gap is so wide, it can not be bridged at this time --- the time is coming soon, it will be bridged.

 

[Mem]

First, it was Jesus Christ that spoke the Torah to Moses. Jesus Christ is our Maker, HE made Adam. He does the Father's will.

If you read the question, it is a serious question as the vast majority of Christians believe Christ abolished the Torah.

With out the Torah which codifies sin and gives Christ the legal right to put transgressor to death for their sins, How then will Christ put to death the billions that refuse to obey?
and HE will!

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

Do you not want to know -- what not to do --- so Christ will not put you to death?
Christ is not saying: "those that do not believe, bring hither"

I am grateful for to the Torah, which brought me to the gospel which brought me to Christ, which provided me access to Father. If I have access to the author of the Book, and may now at any time boldly approach God through Him, how does that not effectively render that Book obsolete? But we're not talking about the Torah being obsolete as much as that applies to the Law as, although the Law is part of it, the Torah is more than the Law.

 

[Proximus]

Bottom line:

If the Torah had been abolished, God has no legal right to punish mankind.

What was abolished, only the ceremonical law, but actually, not as to the essentials, because circumcision was replaced with baptism, and the whole sacrifice thing was summarized in the Holy Supper, though rather as to the essence, than as to the blood external sacrificiial form, because God does not essential want any sacrifices of that kind, though that thing was once allowed.

 

[memberofthebride]

I am grateful for to the Torah, which brought me to the gospel which brought me to Christ, which provided me access to Father. If I have access to the author of the Book, and may now at any time boldly approach God through Him, how does that not effectively render that Book obsolete? But we're not talking about the Torah being obsolete as much as that applies to the Law as, although the Law is part of it, the Torah is more than the Law.

the Torah never not gave any access to the Father, the sacrifice of Christ open the door to the Holy of HOLIES that how we can approach the Father.

these is nothing that has or can render the Torah obsolete!

I can not understand how this is not understood,,
the Torah define sin, what is a sin,, if no Torah, no sin, if no sin then we are not sinners and thus have no need for the sacrifice of Christ.

Which is why the Torah will never be obsolete, it is eternal.

If someone can explain away these logical facts, I would love to see it

 

[Proximus]

the Torah never not gave any access to the Father, the sacrifice of Christ open the door to the Holy of HOLIES that how we can approach the Father.

these is nothing that has or can render the Torah obsolete!

I can not understand how this is not understood,,
the Torah define sin, what is a sin,, if no Torah, no sin, if no sin then we are not sinners and thus have no need for the sacrifice of Christ.

Which is why the Torah will never be obsolete, it is eternal.

If someone can explain away these logical facts, I would love to see it

The ritual part, washings, sacrifices, etc, were no longer of use after the Lord glorified His Human, for after He glorified His Human, the role of that ritualistic part was no longer actual. So, man had to look to the Lord in His Divine Human and live according to His Dinine Commandments (spiritual-moral), and had just a few rites, which either replaced or summarized the preceeding ones.

 

[Mem]

the Torah never not gave any access to the Father, the sacrifice of Christ open the door to the Holy of HOLIES that how we can approach the Father.

these is nothing that has or can render the Torah obsolete!

I can not understand how this is not understood,,
the Torah define sin, what is a sin,, if no Torah, no sin, if no sin then we are not sinners and thus have no need for the sacrifice of Christ.

Which is why the Torah will never be obsolete, it is eternal.

If someone can explain away these logical facts, I would love to see it

How can you see it if you reject Paul's writings as scripture? He addressed the difference between slaves and sons and likened Mount Sinai to the slave woman, Hagar.

Gal 4:24
These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar.

 

[memberofthebride]

The ritual part, washings, sacrifices, etc, were no longer of use after the Lord glorified His Human, for after He glorified His Human, the role of that ritualistic part was no longer actual. So, man had to look to the Lord in His Divine Human and live according to His Dinine Commandments (spiritual-moral), and had just a few rites, which either replaced or summarized the preceeding ones.

How can you see it if you reject Paul's writings as scripture? He addressed the difference between slaves and sons and likened Mount Sinai to the slave woman, Hagar.

Gal 4:24
These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar.

The "consideration" in both Covenants is the same Torah, the O C is physical and the N C is spiritual.
Christ came to complete the law, now it is both physical and spiritual

Under stand, the time of the end is coming, the covenant allows physical punishment for sin,
if there was no physical punishment allowed by the covenant then there could be no time of the end,

I am dead tired --- may I give you the answer in the morning, my mind is on dead stop. what I wrote so far is not clear

thank you

 

[Mem]

The "consideration" in both Covenants is the same Torah, the O C is physical and the N C is spiritual.
Christ came to complete the law, now it is both physical and spiritual

Under stand, the time of the end is coming, the covenant allows physical punishment for sin,
if there was no physical punishment allowed by the covenant then there could be no time of the end,

I am dead tired --- may I give you the answer in the morning, my mind is on dead stop. what I wrote so far is not clear

thank you

No problem. Rest well. God bless you and keep you and give you His shalom.

 

[memberofthebride]

No problem. Rest well. God bless you and keep you and give you His shalom.

I'm back, still tired but thankful for this Sabbath rest today. I need it.

The O C never offered eternal life, never offered the Holy Spirit, only physical blessing for obeying. Rain, protection etc.
and for disobedience, death.

The O C was good, it offered wonderful blessings, if Israel was able to obey-- which they never could.
A few, like Moses had the Holy Spirit in them and could obey, but as the spirit in them was only a small measure, they still sinned, like those with the Spirit today, still sin. Christ had the spirit without measure and could and did - obey to perfection.

the O C never delivered any from the bond of slavery to sin, only punishment for transgressions.

The N C, Christ came to establish, offers eternal life but here is where the big difference is --- humans under there own power can never stop sinning, never obey -- remember "the promise" the disciples were told to wait for after Christ returned to heaven, that promise is the Holy Spirit which gives the power to obey to the person that repents, agrees to stop sinning.

The Holy Spirit, the Father puts in a "repentant person", is God's Power that breaks the bond to sin.
God is not a trinity, the Holy Spirit is not a third "God person", God is a spirit and that ONE spirit of POWER is put in us.

Without God's Holy Spirit in a person, they can never obey, it is impossible. 6000 years of our history is proof.
Jesus Christ had the full measure which gave Him the power to obey perfectly.

This is why the doctrine of 'Grace" is so popular today. "The Many" that embrace this doctrine, do not have the spirit and can not obey and Grace tells them, its OK, obedience is no longer required.

I hope this answers your question.

 

[Mem]

I'm back, still tired but thankful for this Sabbath rest today. I need it.

The O C never offered eternal life, never offered the Holy Spirit, only physical blessing for obeying. Rain, protection etc.
and for disobedience, death.

The O C was good, it offered wonderful blessings, if Israel was able to obey-- which they never could.
A few, like Moses had the Holy Spirit in them and could obey, but as the spirit in them was only a small measure, they still sinned, like those with the Spirit today, still sin. Christ had the spirit without measure and could and did - obey to perfection.

the O C never delivered any from the bond of slavery to sin, only punishment for transgressions.

The N C, Christ came to establish, offers eternal life but here is where the big difference is --- humans under there own power can never stop sinning, never obey -- remember "the promise" the disciples were told to wait for after Christ returned to heaven, that promise is the Holy Spirit which gives the power to obey to the person that repents, agrees to stop sinning.

The Holy Spirit, the Father puts in a "repentant person", is God's Power that breaks the bond to sin.
God is not a trinity, the Holy Spirit is not a third "God person", God is a spirit and that ONE spirit of POWER is put in us.

Without God's Holy Spirit in a person, they can never obey, it is impossible. 6000 years of our history is proof.
Jesus Christ had the full measure which gave Him the power to obey perfectly.

This is why the doctrine of 'Grace" is so popular today. "The Many" that embrace this doctrine, do not have the spirit and can not obey and Grace tells them, its OK, obedience is no longer required.

I hope this answers your question.

Thank you. I can see better now where the distinction lies between your religion and mine. I view the Holy Spirit as Him that speaks "in Son" to us. IMO, this is exactly the "language" which is impossible to understand without the Holy Spirit.