Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

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Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,087
446
83
#41
All of those things you listed have happened many times before in history.

And, Jesus said that there will be wars and rumors of wars. So we have them.

But, the Great Tribulation will be an unheard of unrestrained evil totally cutting loose!

For at present the restraining power of the Holy Spirit on earth will have been removed in the Rapture
when the indwelling Holy Spirit has been taken up with the Church.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will
do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed,
whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the
brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:5-8​

Note!

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so
until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath
of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
All hell on earth will break loose! Nothing like we can know now.​
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#42
There are many righteous dead other than those in the church.

The Rapture is only the resurrection of The Church.
For He will be taking home only His Bride for the marriage supper of the Lamb in the Rapture.
That's true to those who believe that the Church is the bride rather than Israel.

MM
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
2,113
113
#43
Back to the original question---are the dead raised same time as the living? in a pre-tribulation rapture?
:) Hi Omegatime,

I was just coming on here to respond to your OP question when I noticed this post of yours ^ (and I'm detecting a slight difference from your original one).

Here, your question doesn't make full sense, to me.

Could you perhaps *define* how you are using the word ^ (I put in BLUE and underlined) "raised" in this sentence of yours?
Because, IF (by this word) you mean "resurrected [bodily, from the dead]" (which is what I thought your OP was asking), then why are you saying "same time as the living" (as though the still-"living" saints need to be "bodily resurrected from the dead" also, which makes no sense, see.)

So I'm wondering if perhaps you have a different definition you are intending to convey by using this particular word in this sentence (or perhaps have expressed an incomplete thought, here)?







[I'll respond to the OP once I'm assured of what the question actually pertains to. :) Thanks]
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
950
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Australia
#44
There is the 144,000 reserved
There are 144,000 Jews who are sealed, not Christians, the Church won't be here.

Rev.7:4-8
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were [a]sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,933
1,124
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#45
That sounds admirable right now, but we're talking about the worse tribulation this world has even seen. For believers that would mean no food or water, no housing, no rights whatsoever. Plus, running from the authorities who are seeking to kill you by beheading.

God has been shown to provide for His people in the Bible before. And He also conquered death so it lost its sting.

This is what I mean about building up your faith so that you can endure to the end for the Lord. If you don't do that, the fears that you're expressing right now will keep you from enduring to the end and you'll end up being one of the people the Bible talks about who fall away.


🦪
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
950
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Australia
#46
Back to the original question---are the dead raised same time as the living? in a pre-tribulation rapture?

And just how many comings do you see?
There is only one Second Coming. It is about Christ returning to Earth to rule from Israel. The Resurrection of the Church (Rapture) is about the Church meeting Christ in the air. He does not step foot on Earth at this time.

In regards to the raising of the dead (Resurrection of the Church), Paul tells us that the dead in Christ will not precede those alive in Christ. There are two parts to a bodily Resurrection. The first part is this body is raised up back to life then the second part, it is transformed from a body of flesh and bone to a spiritual body. Ergo, those who are dead in Christ are brought back to life first, then all of us are transformed at the same time. We would have to reduce time to nanoseconds in order to see the two parts, as the whole procedure will take place in a "twinkling of an eye" (1Cor.15:51-52)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,144
3,690
113
#47
God has been shown to provide for His people in the Bible before. And He also conquered death so it lost its sting.

This is what I mean about building up your faith so that you can endure to the end for the Lord. If you don't do that, the fears that you're expressing right now will keep you from enduring to the end and you'll end up being one of the people the Bible talks about who fall away.


🦪
Nope, I‘m not afraid but I won't be around. I’ll be dead or I’ll be caught, either way, I’ll be with the Lord.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#48
All the goofy predictions out there, including those concerning feasts and observances are the timing, with only the year not being known...rubbish. The best indicator of the proximity for the rapture is this:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Once we see the Gentiles (defined as all unbelieving Gentiles since being in Christ eradicates that identifier) in mass around the world in rejection of Christ as is the case with Orthodox Jews, THAT is when we can know for sure that it is close.

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#49
Someone might say that we still cannot know the day, but we are told this:

1 Thessalonians 5:1-5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

It is to the children of darkness to whom the rapture will be as a thief in the night, with sudden destruction coming upon them.

MM
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,120
934
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#50
Matthew 24:21 has not come to pass. It is yet future. It's going to be much worse than anything that has happened in the past.
Is Matthew 24:21 a future event or a past event?

Matthew 24:15
Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through
Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let the reader understand, then those who
are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

If this tribulation is at the end of days why are the residents of Judea only, told to flee?

Matthew 24:34
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Which people, which generation, will not pass away until UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE?

Luke 21:21-22
Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city
must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days
of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled.

Once again in Luke the identical instruction to leave Judea occurs.
Then the identical sentence, SO THAT ALL THINGS which have been written will be fulfilled.

This desolation seems to be upon Jerusalem yet the fulfillment of all things generates a problem.

Hope you can sort this out!
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,087
4,360
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#51
Do you also believe that a resurrection of the righteous dead also happens at the same time?
The word of God says that in 1thess, the dead IN Christ should be raised first.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#52
There are 144,000 Jews who are sealed, not Christians, the Church won't be here.

Rev.7:4-8
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were [a]sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed
Replacement Theology is one of those doctrines of demons that I as an Israeli find most offensive. That there are "scholars" out there who espouse that nonsense shows that having letters attached to their names doesn't in any way bestow upon them any measure of infallibility.

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#53
Is Matthew 24:21 a future event or a past event?

Matthew 24:15
Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through
Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let the reader understand, then those who
are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

If this tribulation is at the end of days why are the residents of Judea only, told to flee?

Matthew 24:34
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Which people, which generation, will not pass away until UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE?

Luke 21:21-22
Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city
must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days
of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled.

Once again in Luke the identical instruction to leave Judea occurs.
Then the identical sentence, SO THAT ALL THINGS which have been written will be fulfilled.

This desolation seems to be upon Jerusalem yet the fulfillment of all things generates a problem.

Hope you can sort this out!
This confusion of yours is the result from a failure to rightly divide the word of truth.

MM
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
950
196
43
67
Australia
#54
Replacement Theology is one of those doctrines of demons that I as an Israeli find most offensive. That there are "scholars" out there who espouse that nonsense shows that having letters attached to their names doesn't in any way bestow upon them any measure of infallibility.

MM
A friend sent me a funny meme recently ...

"Fairy tales used to start with 'Once upon a time' ... now they start with 'According to the experts' " ;) :ROFL:
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,933
1,124
113
#55
Is Matthew 24:21 a future event or a past event?

Matthew 24:15
Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through
Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let the reader understand, then those who
are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

If this tribulation is at the end of days why are the residents of Judea only, told to flee?

Matthew 24:34
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Which people, which generation, will not pass away until UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE?

Luke 21:21-22
Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside the city
must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days
of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled.

Once again in Luke the identical instruction to leave Judea occurs.
Then the identical sentence, SO THAT ALL THINGS which have been written will be fulfilled.

This desolation seems to be upon Jerusalem yet the fulfillment of all things generates a problem.

Hope you can sort this out!

Look up dual fulfillment. That means certain prophecies come to pass in part in the near future from when the prophecy was first announced and then happens again in full much later in time.

In terms of generation, the generation that sees them come to pass will witness them to the end. So in a dual fulfillment, the generation of the first fulfillment did see these things come to pass. In the second more complete fulfillment, the generation who sees them start will witness them to the end as well.

The first fulfillment in Judea has already come to pass. It will happen again at the end times in full when all the armies gather against it. That's why the future generation who sees this will have to flee too.


🦪
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#56
A friend sent me a funny meme recently ...

"Fairy tales used to start with 'Once upon a time' ... now they start with 'According to the experts' " ;):ROFL:
Good one. :cool:

MM
 

TabinRivCA

Well-known member
Oct 23, 2018
13,156
10,712
113
#57
Do you also believe that a resurrection of the righteous dead also happens at the same time?
From Billy Graham:
There are many Christians who believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ will be in two phases. First, He will come for believers, both living and dead, in the “rapture” (read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). In this view, the rapture—which is the transformation and catching up of all Christians, dead or alive, to meet Christ in the air—will be secret, for it will be unknown to the world of unbelievers at the time of its happening.
The effect of this removal, in the absence of multitudes of people, will, of course, be evident on earth. Then, second, after a period of seven years of tribulation on earth, Christ will return to the earth with His church, the saints who were raptured (Matthew 24:30, 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 1 Peter 1:13, Revelation 1:7). He will be victorious over His enemies and will reign on the earth for 1,000 years (the millennium) with His saints, the church.
Questions for you are; Do you think our Heavenly Father is going to put His obedient children through the Tribulation? If the Body of Christ is on earth during the Trib, are they smart enough to recognize the Lawless One and point him out to the world?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,087
446
83
#58
That's true to those who believe that the Church is the bride rather than Israel.

MM

John the Baptist would die before the church age, being an OT Jew, knew he was not chosen for being the Bride.

John 3:28-29


You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’
He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him,
rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.



OT Jews who lived and died before the Church age, like John the Baptist, David and Moses, were not the Bride of Christ.
But, as John the Baptist revealed in John 3:28-29, such Jews have been designated for being the friend of the Groom.

Israel is the friend of the groom.


grace and peace .............
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,598
505
113
#59
Yes. That 144,000 Jews from each tribe will be tasked with teaching the necessity for those in the tribulation period to become Jews, and to follow the Law of works as a perfection of their faith, as was the case before and after the cross, but before the revelation of the mystery taught only to Paul by Christ Jesus Himself. That is how we rightly divide the word of truth.

Good post.

MM
Daily seeking, trusting God to teach me as God teaches each child of God's in his risen Son for them. Learning new daily watched, watching layers of onion get peeled off daily in continued trust to God Father of risen Son Jesus for me at least and I suspect you also. I noticed the center of an onion, is a sweet smelling savor.
This floors me to see things gone that had a hold of me, that was not good for me, that God revealed too me to see as not good for me to continue in and even though I did, God continued (s) I in God's reconciliation to us all, amazing grace. Then in time it waxed old and lost hold, not that anything could not ever come back again, that has happened and I learned deeper , wider and higher in God's love and mercy for us all to not quit and watch it eventually leave in humility, such as drinking too much, which I did that from 14 to 27, 67 now, and have had it put in front of me, to get caught up in it again, yet by the grace of God, it did not, has not, gotten me. I see to take day by day and have no more unrealistic expectations of any future, God has got my tomorrow and every child of God's, God teaches as a gift. That is amazing to see Gift and reward are at the opposite ends of each other
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,598
505
113
#60
Amazing how people do not know, only know if told by God personally to know. yet will be settled and not haughty, nasty or nice to bring in others under them, as religion has been doing that for centuries, what?
Who were the Judaizers? the mixing of Law and Grace

ANSWER

There have always been those who balk at the idea of God’s salvation being offered freely to those who believe. They reason that such a grand gift as forgiveness from such a holy God must require some kind of payment from us. We thank God for His grace, but we understand that He expects us to somehow earn that grace—in other words, there must be something that we can do to pay off the debt we owe to God.

In the early church, those who taught a combination of God’s grace and human effort were called “Judaizers.” The word Judaizercomes from a Greek verb meaning “to live according to Jewish customs.” The word appears in Galatians 2:14 where Paul describes how he confronted Peter for forcing Gentile Christians to “Judaize.”

A Judaizer taught that, in order for a Christian to truly be right with God, he must conform to the Mosaic Law. Circumcision, especially, was promoted as necessary for salvation. Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes first, and then they could come to Christ. The doctrine of the Judaizers was a mixture of grace (through Christ) and works (through the keeping of the Law). This false doctrine was dealt with in Acts 15 and strongly condemned in the book of Galatians.

At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, a group of Judaizers opposed Paul and Barnabas. Some men who belonged to the party of the Pharisees insisted that Gentiles could not be saved unless they were first circumcised and obeyed the Law of Moses. Paul made the case that, in Christ, there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile, for God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (Acts 15:8–9). He said it plainly in Galatians 2:16: “A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

To add anything to the work that Christ did for salvation is to negate God’s grace. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, not by returning to the Law. “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing” (Galatians 2:21).

There are many groups today with beliefs/practices very similar to those of the Judaizers of the New Testament. The two most prominent would be the Hebrew Roots Movement and the Roman Catholic Church. The teachings of the Hebrew Roots Movement are virtually identical to those of the Judaizers whom Paul rebuked in Galatians. A primary focus of the Hebrew Roots Movement is to put followers of Christ back under the bondage of the Old Testament Law.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches a doctrine similar to that of the Judaizers of the New Testament in this way: its doctrine is a mixture of law and grace. At the Council of Trent in the 16th century, the Catholic Church explicitly denied the idea of salvation by faith alone. Catholics have always held that certain sacraments are necessary for salvation. The issues for the 1st-century Judaizers were circumcision and Sabbath-keeping. The issues for modern-day Catholics are baptism, confession, etc. The works considered necessary may have changed, but both Judaizers and Catholics attempt to merit God’s grace through the performance of ritualistic acts.

First Timothy 4:3 says that, in later times, false teachers will “forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.” This sounds suspiciously close to some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism, which requires priests to be celibate (“forbidding to marry”) and proclaims some food to be off-limits during Lent (“abstaining from certain foods”).The Judaizers upheld the Mosaic Law as necessary for salvation; Catholics uphold man-made tradition as necessary; both view Christ’s death as being insufficient without the active and continued cooperation of the one being saved.

The Bible is clear that the attempt to add human works to God’s grace overlooks the very meaning of grace, which is “undeserved blessing.” As Paul says, “If by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace” (Romans 11:6). Praise the Lord, “Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).