Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,598
505
113
#61
Willingness to serve in whatever capacity is indeed a good thing when applied properly, but when offered in spite of what's written to the contrary, it tends to teeter on the precipice of doubt for what the Lord has stated. The ripple effects of sentiments need to always remain in the balance of our thoughts so that we don't inadvertently blunder into the arena of false doctrine...with good intent, of course...

MM
Matt 10:16-20, luke 21:14-15 and not that "I" got it. "I" don't, God does and has done it and will not quit, I see to put behind me daily what is behind me (Phil 3) and continue to move forward to the call, God has called me in and learn it willingly, as I see you doing, thank you for the admonishing. I am not the leader, only the willing follower of God in the risen Son Jesus, as all will choose too or not too. That is what is left after the win of Son in the resurrection, for me at least
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,598
505
113
#62
There are 144,000 Jews who are sealed, not Christians, the Church won't be here.

Rev.7:4-8
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were [a]sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed
God has not adopted you? do we really not see this amazing grace given us too rest in and not be haughty over it?
I am an adopted first chosen person, by God in risen Son Jesus, not myself or anyone else, thank you, hoping fro us all to rest in God doing for us what needed to get done as done for us to be new in love and mercy to all too, thank you
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#63
From Billy Graham:
There are many Christians who believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ will be in two phases. First, He will come for believers, both living and dead, in the “rapture” (read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). In this view, the rapture—which is the transformation and catching up of all Christians, dead or alive, to meet Christ in the air—will be secret, for it will be unknown to the world of unbelievers at the time of its happening.
The effect of this removal, in the absence of multitudes of people, will, of course, be evident on earth. Then, second, after a period of seven years of tribulation on earth, Christ will return to the earth with His church, the saints who were raptured (Matthew 24:30, 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 1 Peter 1:13, Revelation 1:7). He will be victorious over His enemies and will reign on the earth for 1,000 years (the millennium) with His saints, the church.
Questions for you are; Do you think our Heavenly Father is going to put His obedient children through the Tribulation? If the Body of Christ is on earth during the Trib, are they smart enough to recognize the Lawless One and point him out to the world?
I'm not sure why he thought that the rapture was at all associated with the Second Coming. They are not at all similar. Those who really do know the Bible can differentiate that from what is written about the character of the two entrances of the Lord into this realm. The angels, at Christ's departure said that He would return in like manner for us. The character of the Second coming is vastly different in character, considering that He will then be returning in wrath, destroying His enemies. That is not at all what will happen at His coming for His body, which is showering us with blessing as He was doing at His departure.

So, Graham, like so many other super stars, got it wrong by comparing the rapture, when His Feet never touch the ground, with His Second Coming when His Feet do touch down upon the earth and the mountain splits in half, destroying the wicked city of spiritual Babylon in the process, otherwise known as ancient Jerusalem. The cataclysm of that mountain splitting by way of the fault they have already found running east and west through Zion, yeah. It's going to be epic in its destruction of that wicked, spiritual Sodom of a city.

MM
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,994
976
113
44
#64
That's true, just as this is true:

Ephesians 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

This applies to many systems of doctrinal thought, much of which arise from mere religion and from allegorizational theology into which they try to force any and all of scripture that says what they don't like.

MM
This can apply to you just as much as it can whoever you're aiming it at. Those that disagree with you would say the exact same thing to you.

You would have to have God command another temple be built (after the close of scripture BTW, but sideline that issue for now) to reinstitute a sacrificial system that was created to point to Jesus, Why would God go backwards like that when He never has before? What would be the point of a temple that points us to a person and event that has already happen?
So is God confused? Why would Jesus who came and "finished it", and is now seated at the right hand and must reign until everything is made a footstool for His feet, need to be pointed to again as if His work wasn't already finished as He said it was?

So you can make your self assured comments about the silliness of what others believe, but there are a TON of problems with what you're proclaiming the truth is as well. A TON.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,598
505
113
#65
I'm not sure why he thought that the rapture was at all associated with the Second Coming. They are not at all similar. Those who really do know the Bible can differentiate that from what is written about the character of the two entrances of the Lord into this realm. The angels, at Christ's departure said that He would return in like manner for us. The character of the Second coming is vastly different in character, considering that He will then be returning in wrath, destroying His enemies. That is not at all what will happen at His coming for His body, which is showering us with blessing as He was doing at His departure.

So, Graham, like so many other super stars, got it wrong by comparing the rapture, when His Feet never touch the ground, with His Second Coming when His Feet do touch down upon the earth and the mountain splits in half, destroying the wicked city of spiritual Babylon in the process, otherwise known as ancient Jerusalem. The cataclysm of that mountain splitting by way of the fault they have already found running east and west through Zion, yeah. It's going to be epic in its destruction of that wicked, spiritual Sodom of a city.

MM
However it all comes to get seen and be
the tares will be removed from the wheat, now are in the born again, given to them by God not self or anyone else, not that I got it, I am in process still.
For now we are to not remove the tares from the wheat, as God knows what God is allowing, as I do not know, unless God tells me so. I see to rest in this mess here on earth, that has been going on ever since the First Adam. Now standing new in the second Adam, Jesus the risen who first took away the sin of the world for us in his Father's sight to us, through that willing one time death only, that is finished for us. To have a personal conversation with Father, Daddy, seeing we are no longer under Condemnation as we were in the first testament for sure. Woe, thanking Father and Son for the done work of Son to get and rely on, forever, seeing nothing can separate us from this love and mercy given us by God to us in Son for us
seeing what fear does to people, it brings forth more sin, to not want to do it, brings it out in us, at least me doing it. To see that conundrum can only be revealed to each by God between God and any person, that is growing up into maturity that God has permitted from whoever to grow up to see this amazing gift, that has not yet quit, amazingly thank you Father
When God takes away fear, that person knows it and stands in humility from being given it, amazingly so, at least for me, now seeing this amazingly.

Perfect love casts out all fear, 1 John 4:18
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,598
505
113
#66
This can apply to you just as much as it can whoever you're aiming it at. Those that disagree with you would say the exact same thing to you.

You would have to have God command another temple be built (after the close of scripture BTW, but sideline that issue for now) to reinstitute a sacrificial system that was created to point to Jesus, Why would God go backwards like that when He never has before? What would be the point of a temple that points us to a person and event that has already happen?
So is God confused? Why would Jesus who came and "finished it", and is now seated at the right hand and must reign until everything is made a footstool for His feet, need to be pointed to again as if His work wasn't already finished as He said it was?

So you can make your self assured comments about the silliness of what others believe, but there are a TON of problems with what you're proclaiming the truth is as well. A TON.
Jesus yelled "It is finished" John 19:30. Therefore, what got finished? Could that be what he said in Matthew 5:17 he came to fulfill, not destroy the Law and Prophets? So did he do what he said he came to do on that cross for us the people or not?
Is it done, fulfilled for us to turn to new or not?
Hebrews 7:11-12 tells me it is new, he is the New High Priest after the order of Melchizedek not in the order of Aaron. And that Love, God's love of 1 Cor 13:4-7 has no law against Love of God at all.
So what are we the people to do then?
Could it be trust God Father of the risen Son Jesus or not? Is it finished or not? Did God in Son complete, fulfill the Law and prophets of Son or not?
If it is done, then it be time to reset and rest. Hebrews 4 tells me to rest in the done work of Son. Therefore go to God not self or any other human flesh please, see to glory in your iniquities (need) and not use the need for any gain for the self as goes on to this day still in unbelief of people. claiming they believe, it might be time to become wise as a serpent and remain harmless as a dove? As only God can reveal not me or anyone else.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#67
John the Baptist would die before the church age, being an OT Jew, knew he was not chosen for being the Bride.

John 3:28-29​
You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’
He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him,
rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.



OT Jews who lived and died before the Church age, like John the Baptist, David and Moses, were not the Bride of Christ.
But, as John the Baptist revealed in John 3:28-29, such Jews have been designated for being the friend of the Groom.

Israel is the friend of the groom.


grace and peace .............
I understand your saying this, as it appeals to Gentile pride, which is deeply rooted in replacement theology.

John 3:27-29
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The claim that John here is disavowing Israel as the bride, that makes no sense.

Also:

Revelation 18:9-10, 23-24
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. ...
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The Gentile believers were not a great mass within Jerusalem. It was populated by the bride...those who were of faith, and later scattered through persecution. If the Gentiles were the bride, then this would have had to be expanded in scope beyond just Jerusalem given that the largest mass of their population of professing believers were all throughout the rest of the known world.

Jerusalem, which has long since become spiritual Babylon, was the place where the voice of the bride and the Bridegroom once rang forth, but where those voices will be heard no more. John the Revelator was not talking about Gentiles in Babylon, for ancient Babylon was desolate and mostly uninhabited apart from the remaining Seleucids when all this was written. Even Peter called Jerusalem "Babylon:"

1 Peter 5:13 The [church that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you; and [so doth] Marcus my son.

There is no record of Peter ever having traveled to the ancient city Babylon. The prophets of God were not killed in the ancient city Babylon, but in Jerusalem, the spiritual Babylon. We also have no reason to believe that Peter was ever writing from ancient Babylon, which was mostly desolate, with no Church existing there so far as can be found.

So, when we put two and two together, that doctrine of demons known as replacement theology, is then seen for what it is.

I'm hoping you will study this more in depth and see the error of that doctrine, which did not originate from you or anyone else here. It was around long before any of us were born. Luther, Zwingli, Augustine and many others of their ilk likely held to this nonsense.

In case someone out there thinks that I'm slandering Jerusalem: As an Israeli, I'm well acquainted with the sentiments of Christ and the apostles against ancient Jerusalem, in that Jerusalem, having had much blood upon it from the prophets killed within her, as the harlot, the Mystery Babylon, I look forward to the day when the Lord snuffs out her light forever, for that city is nothing but a reminder of that city's spiritual infamy.

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#68
Amazing how people do not know, only know if told by God personally to know. yet will be settled and not haughty, nasty or nice to bring in others under them, as religion has been doing that for centuries, what?
Who were the Judaizers? the mixing of Law and Grace

ANSWER

There have always been those who balk at the idea of God’s salvation being offered freely to those who believe. They reason that such a grand gift as forgiveness from such a holy God must require some kind of payment from us. We thank God for His grace, but we understand that He expects us to somehow earn that grace—in other words, there must be something that we can do to pay off the debt we owe to God.

In the early church, those who taught a combination of God’s grace and human effort were called “Judaizers.” The word Judaizercomes from a Greek verb meaning “to live according to Jewish customs.” The word appears in Galatians 2:14 where Paul describes how he confronted Peter for forcing Gentile Christians to “Judaize.”

A Judaizer taught that, in order for a Christian to truly be right with God, he must conform to the Mosaic Law. Circumcision, especially, was promoted as necessary for salvation. Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes first, and then they could come to Christ. The doctrine of the Judaizers was a mixture of grace (through Christ) and works (through the keeping of the Law). This false doctrine was dealt with in Acts 15 and strongly condemned in the book of Galatians.

At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, a group of Judaizers opposed Paul and Barnabas. Some men who belonged to the party of the Pharisees insisted that Gentiles could not be saved unless they were first circumcised and obeyed the Law of Moses. Paul made the case that, in Christ, there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile, for God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (Acts 15:8–9). He said it plainly in Galatians 2:16: “A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

To add anything to the work that Christ did for salvation is to negate God’s grace. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, not by returning to the Law. “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing” (Galatians 2:21).

There are many groups today with beliefs/practices very similar to those of the Judaizers of the New Testament. The two most prominent would be the Hebrew Roots Movement and the Roman Catholic Church. The teachings of the Hebrew Roots Movement are virtually identical to those of the Judaizers whom Paul rebuked in Galatians. A primary focus of the Hebrew Roots Movement is to put followers of Christ back under the bondage of the Old Testament Law.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches a doctrine similar to that of the Judaizers of the New Testament in this way: its doctrine is a mixture of law and grace. At the Council of Trent in the 16th century, the Catholic Church explicitly denied the idea of salvation by faith alone. Catholics have always held that certain sacraments are necessary for salvation. The issues for the 1st-century Judaizers were circumcision and Sabbath-keeping. The issues for modern-day Catholics are baptism, confession, etc. The works considered necessary may have changed, but both Judaizers and Catholics attempt to merit God’s grace through the performance of ritualistic acts.

First Timothy 4:3 says that, in later times, false teachers will “forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.” This sounds suspiciously close to some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism, which requires priests to be celibate (“forbidding to marry”) and proclaims some food to be off-limits during Lent (“abstaining from certain foods”).The Judaizers upheld the Mosaic Law as necessary for salvation; Catholics uphold man-made tradition as necessary; both view Christ’s death as being insufficient without the active and continued cooperation of the one being saved.

The Bible is clear that the attempt to add human works to God’s grace overlooks the very meaning of grace, which is “undeserved blessing.” As Paul says, “If by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace” (Romans 11:6). Praise the Lord, “Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).
There will always be those who have that deep-seated desire to try and add to their salvation the works of their efforts. They seem to feel that they must contribute, as if the Blood of Christ were not enough. So many seem to miss the obvious, in that GRACE cannot take on anything from our efforts. The only part of the mix is faith. Under the Kingdom Gospel, works were the perfection of faith, but under grace, nothing can perfect our faith, for nothing can add to the completed offer of grace toward us. How anyone can think that they can somehow add anything of value to unmerited favor, it completely escapes me. I'm forced to ask them, "What part of UNMERITED do you not understand?"

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#69
This can apply to you just as much as it can whoever you're aiming it at. Those that disagree with you would say the exact same thing to you.

You would have to have God command another temple be built (after the close of scripture BTW, but sideline that issue for now) to reinstitute a sacrificial system that was created to point to Jesus, Why would God go backwards like that when He never has before? What would be the point of a temple that points us to a person and event that has already happen?
So is God confused? Why would Jesus who came and "finished it", and is now seated at the right hand and must reign until everything is made a footstool for His feet, need to be pointed to again as if His work wasn't already finished as He said it was?

So you can make your self assured comments about the silliness of what others believe, but there are a TON of problems with what you're proclaiming the truth is as well. A TON.
That's they beauty of discussion when we recognize that there are many, many false beliefs out there, and that we can explore them, including our own, to see what holds water and what does not.

MM
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,598
505
113
#70
There will always be those who have that deep-seated desire to try and add to their salvation the works of their efforts. They seem to feel that they must contribute, as if the Blood of Christ were not enough. So many seem to miss the obvious, in that GRACE cannot take on anything from our efforts. The only part of the mix is faith. Under the Kingdom Gospel, works were the perfection of faith, but under grace, nothing can perfect our faith, for nothing can add to the completed offer of grace toward us. How anyone can think that they can somehow add anything of value to unmerited favor, it completely escapes me. I'm forced to ask them, "What part of UNMERITED do you not understand?"

MM
I see it as well for the soul to be in rest from God to us each, thanks

agreed. For me, it started back in the 1990's, when I went to a church, that got me put under Law, I therefore saw in thought I had to do to keep me in check. I got so caught up under Law, I was doing what I did not want to do, and am still working this out and learning new in trust only to God through risen Son Jesus for me too, thank you.
I see this: having to do or else attitude of that particular church, is what they believe, and so do
God revealed to me, this in Proverbs 23:1-7, verse 7, as a man(person) thinks so is that person.
I began learning new, that is to do nothing, but to trust God in his done work of Son for me to be new and not do, not even rethinking about whether or not I am doing it for not!
What?????????????????? I heard how can I Lord? People everywhere I went saying you got to or else, God will smite you. living under Law stressed me out badly, I became an ass to all those close to me, and caused arguments, in me not obeying by my trying to obey it deceived me, incredulously. I once went to a Clinic, medical, my wife was in need, she went in, as I waited in that waiting room then.
There was a little girl about 13, 14, And she told me to turn on a radio station and listen in.
I did and my new life began
I heard on that station, "I by God in risen Son am forgiven" I began to go to the Bible to see it for myself.
I got challenged to go to the Bible and find out where there is anymore forgiveness (reconciliation) to be asked for after the death, burial and resurrection of Son?
I found it (1 John 1:9) only to find out it is mistranslated as if I am not forgiven if I sin again, to have to be given more forgiveness from God.
What? as people will say reading this, what I just said above. I did that, I remember that coming out of me, I needed to be forgiven and not sin again, so aware of sin, what did I do and continue to do? How about anyone else reading this here too? yes, you know this in self too. Don't tell me, tell, God what is up with this? Then it might begin in. you too, the new, seeing the old wax off (Hebrews 10) and be new in humility too, no more pride and quilt controlling you.
It begins with Thank you Lord for reconciling me (Forgiving me) (2 Cor 5:17-20)
Now what? God takes you, us and all in belief to God in, as if never sinned (Col 1:21-23)
Then the new you starts, and one sees to not take any credit of behaving new in love and mercy to all, the same as given us to do from Father and Son forgive, because you are now forgiven, naturally new as born new by God for us in mercy and truth only. Too busy in thanksgiving and praise to sin any longer as did when trying not to sin that got, gets people in bondage to begin with, that religion uses to this day to get what the people in charge want
Time to see ask God in you, not me pleaser, thank you. you will then see what Hebrews 5:12 through chapter 6 is saying to you too
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,087
446
83
#71
I understand your saying this, as it appeals to Gentile pride, which is deeply rooted in replacement theology.

John 3:27-29
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The claim that John here is disavowing Israel as the bride, that makes no sense.

Also:

Revelation 18:9-10, 23-24
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. ...
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The Gentile believers were not a great mass within Jerusalem. It was populated by the bride...those who were of faith, and later scattered through persecution. If the Gentiles were the bride, then this would have had to be expanded in scope beyond just Jerusalem given that the largest mass of their population of professing believers were all throughout the rest of the known world.

Jerusalem, which has long since become spiritual Babylon, was the place where the voice of the bride and the Bridegroom once rang forth, but where those voices will be heard no more. John the Revelator was not talking about Gentiles in Babylon, for ancient Babylon was desolate and mostly uninhabited apart from the remaining Seleucids when all this was written. Even Peter called Jerusalem "Babylon:"

1 Peter 5:13 The [church that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you; and [so doth] Marcus my son.

There is no record of Peter ever having traveled to the ancient city Babylon. The prophets of God were not killed in the ancient city Babylon, but in Jerusalem, the spiritual Babylon. We also have no reason to believe that Peter was ever writing from ancient Babylon, which was mostly desolate, with no Church existing there so far as can be found.

So, when we put two and two together, that doctrine of demons known as replacement theology, is then seen for what it is.

I'm hoping you will study this more in depth and see the error of that doctrine, which did not originate from you or anyone else here. It was around long before any of us were born. Luther, Zwingli, Augustine and many others of their ilk likely held to this nonsense.

In case someone out there thinks that I'm slandering Jerusalem: As an Israeli, I'm well acquainted with the sentiments of Christ and the apostles against ancient Jerusalem, in that Jerusalem, having had much blood upon it from the prophets killed within her, as the harlot, the Mystery Babylon, I look forward to the day when the Lord snuffs out her light forever, for that city is nothing but a reminder of that city's spiritual infamy.

MM
What were you trying to say?
Keep it on one place on the map. please.

Were you saying that what I said agrees with replacement theology?
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
950
196
43
67
Australia
#72
God has not adopted you? do we really not see this amazing grace given us too rest in and not be haughty over it?
I am an adopted first chosen person, by God in risen Son Jesus, not myself or anyone else, thank you, hoping fro us all to rest in God doing for us what needed to get done as done for us to be new in love and mercy to all too, thank you
Which Jewish tribe are you from?

The 144,000 has nothing to do with the Church or adoption. The Church has never been referenced as "the 12 tribes of Israel". The 144,000 come from the 12 tribes, they are Jews. It was my first clue, when reading Revelation, that the end times were not about the Church.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
950
196
43
67
Australia
#73
I understand your saying this, as it appeals to Gentile pride, which is deeply rooted in replacement theology.

John 3:27-29
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

The claim that John here is disavowing Israel as the bride, that makes no sense.

Also:

Revelation 18:9-10, 23-24
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. ...
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

The Gentile believers were not a great mass within Jerusalem. It was populated by the bride...those who were of faith, and later scattered through persecution. If the Gentiles were the bride, then this would have had to be expanded in scope beyond just Jerusalem given that the largest mass of their population of professing believers were all throughout the rest of the known world.

Jerusalem, which has long since become spiritual Babylon, was the place where the voice of the bride and the Bridegroom once rang forth, but where those voices will be heard no more. John the Revelator was not talking about Gentiles in Babylon, for ancient Babylon was desolate and mostly uninhabited apart from the remaining Seleucids when all this was written. Even Peter called Jerusalem "Babylon:"

1 Peter 5:13 The [church that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you; and [so doth] Marcus my son.

There is no record of Peter ever having traveled to the ancient city Babylon. The prophets of God were not killed in the ancient city Babylon, but in Jerusalem, the spiritual Babylon. We also have no reason to believe that Peter was ever writing from ancient Babylon, which was mostly desolate, with no Church existing there so far as can be found.

So, when we put two and two together, that doctrine of demons known as replacement theology, is then seen for what it is.

I'm hoping you will study this more in depth and see the error of that doctrine, which did not originate from you or anyone else here. It was around long before any of us were born. Luther, Zwingli, Augustine and many others of their ilk likely held to this nonsense.

In case someone out there thinks that I'm slandering Jerusalem: As an Israeli, I'm well acquainted with the sentiments of Christ and the apostles against ancient Jerusalem, in that Jerusalem, having had much blood upon it from the prophets killed within her, as the harlot, the Mystery Babylon, I look forward to the day when the Lord snuffs out her light forever, for that city is nothing but a reminder of that city's spiritual infamy.

MM
I'm a bit lost with the meaning of your posts. :confused:

I don't hold to replacement theology, I know the poster you responded to doesn't either.

The Church is both Jews and Gentiles yet, are neither really, one holy nation as the Bride of Christ.

Israel is a separate entity, a nation under God. The Lord has not replaced her, nor forgotten her and will fulfill His dealings with her in the Great Tribulation whereas the Church is dealt with in the Rapture.

Two separate peoples, two separate destinies. One to rule the nations on Earth with Christ as King, the other to rule heaven alongside her husband, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

As best as I can see, the Church is to have authority over angels, not a promise ever given to Israel of which I'm aware.

Could you please explain how you understand the distinction between the two entities because, as I said, I'm a bit confused.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,087
446
83
#74
I'm a bit lost with the meaning of your posts. :confused:

I don't hold to replacement theology, I know the poster you responded to doesn't either.

The Church is both Jews and Gentiles yet, are neither really, one holy nation as the Bride of Christ.

Israel is a separate entity, a nation under God. The Lord has not replaced her, nor forgotten her and will fulfill His dealings with her in the Great Tribulation whereas the Church is dealt with in the Rapture.

Two separate peoples, two separate destinies. One to rule the nations on Earth with Christ as King, the other to rule heaven alongside her husband, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

As best as I can see, the Church is to have authority over angels, not a promise ever given to Israel of which I'm aware.

Could you please explain how you understand the distinction between the two entities because, as I said, I'm a bit confused.

Galatians 3:28​
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female,
for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Why would God recruit 144,000 Jews for evangelizing, during the time of the Tribulation?
If there is no longer Jew, nor Gentile, in Christ Jesus?

That's a problem some are not dealing with..

One must study to know the Word of God better than simply how one feels about a matter.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
950
196
43
67
Australia
#75
Galatians 3:28​
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female,
for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Why would God recruit 144,000 Jews for evangelizing, during the time of the Tribulation?
If there is no longer Jew, nor Gentile, in Christ Jesus?

That's a problem some are not dealing with..

One must study to know the Word of God better than simply how one feels about a matter.
As I said to another poster, it was my first clue when reading Revelation that God was directing someone other than the Church in those last seven years.

One has to value the truth more than their own life.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#77
I'm a bit lost with the meaning of your posts. :confused:

I don't hold to replacement theology, I know the poster you responded to doesn't either.

The Church is both Jews and Gentiles yet, are neither really, one holy nation as the Bride of Christ.

Israel is a separate entity, a nation under God. The Lord has not replaced her, nor forgotten her and will fulfill His dealings with her in the Great Tribulation whereas the Church is dealt with in the Rapture.

Two separate peoples, two separate destinies. One to rule the nations on Earth with Christ as King, the other to rule heaven alongside her husband, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

As best as I can see, the Church is to have authority over angels, not a promise ever given to Israel of which I'm aware.

Could you please explain how you understand the distinction between the two entities because, as I said, I'm a bit confused.
Again, the Church is not the bride of Christ.

That's putting it simply.

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,135
203
63
#78
The Evangelical teaching that the Church is the bride of Christ, it's false, and here's why:

Revelation 21:9-10, 12, 14, 24-26
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ...
12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: ...
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. ...
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

As we can see, it's the names of all the tribes of Israel, and the apostles that were written upon it, not Europe, America, Africa, or any other names of nations. Instead, we see that the nations bring tribute into the city, which would imply that they live outside the city for them to bring into the city the glory and honor from outside the city that will rest upon the new earth.

The body of Christ will not live there, and here's why:

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul was speaking to the body of Christ, not Israel. The body of Christ will dwell in "heavenly places," not the New Earth nor the New Jerusalem.

MM