Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

TMS · 2024-09-28T00:14:14-0400

Dispensationalism was systematized and promoted by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren in the mid-19th century. It began its spread in the United States during the late 19th century through the efforts of evangelists such as James Inglis, James Hall Brookes and Dwight L.

It did not exist in the apostles day.
God uses different measures at different times but God does not change. As a whole God has one standard and one way to be saved.

He isn't more merciful and gracious today, then he was yesterday.

God's character is love and that principle does not change.

The same God loved Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel, Peter, Paul, you and me in the same way.

Does God change the goal posts at different times?. Do we gain salvation by works for a time, then by grace for a different time?

Dispensationalism is an evil invention.

Genez · 2024-09-28T00:50:47-0400

TMS said:

Jesus "raised" Lazarus from the dead.
But, Lazarus was not resurrected.
Lazarus when raised, he was reestablished back into his earthly body, but only to die again later.

The Rapture will be in secret, up above in the clouds.
In contrast, his return to earth will not be in secret- Then every eye will see Him.

He will return to put an end to the Tribulation.
At that time, he will slaughter all the enemies of Israel who were coming against her.

That's how it rolls ....

TheDivineWatermark · 2024-09-28T00:57:11-0400

Cameron143 said:

In Acts 3 (after Jesus' resurrection and ascension), Peter, speaking to "ye men of Israel," says to the people, "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob... hath glorified His Servant Jesus; whom YE delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate... But YE denied the Holy One and the Just... And KILLED the Prince of life..."

Further down, in v.17, he says, "... I wot that through ignorance YE did it, as did also your rulers."

Then in v.19, Peter says, "Repent YE therefore, and be converted, THAT YOUR sins may be blotted out..."

Continuing into chapter 4, v.1 says, "And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came unto them, Being grieved that they TAUGHT THE PEOPLE, and PREACHED through Jesus the resurrection from the dead...," and then goes on to say, in v.4, "Howbeit MANY OF THEM WHICH HEARD THE WORD *BELIEVED*; and the number of the men was about five thousand."

So here we see in Acts 3 and 4, that at least "5000" men (whom Peter had said were a part of who it was that "KILLED the Prince of life") repented of their view of "who Jesus was/is" when Peter spoke to them (thus had their sins "blotted out")... and therefore will be among the [at least] 5000 sets of resurrected eyeballs who will "SEE Him" (Rev1:7) at the time surrounding His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (Rev19 time-slot; Rev1:7).

Simple.

[Rev1:7's "EVERY EYE shall SEE Him" = "the MANIFESTATION of the presence / parousia of Him" 2Th2:8b (Rev17:14 / 19:16)]

Cameron143 · 2024-09-28T01:11:16-0400

TheDivineWatermark said:

More likely it is speaking of the Roman soldiers, and if this were the only reference to the concurrent timeline, I might be inclined to agree. But 3 references in 7 verses seems like God is making a point. This, as well as plenty of entries in the gospel of Jesus speaking of the current generation, I'm inclined to believe the time-frame is 1st century.

But the most convincing evidence for me is the reality of what actually took place in 70AD, and the similar structures of and outlines of Deuteronomy and Revelation. They are dealing with the same subject...the old covenant. One initiates it and sets the terms and sanctions. The other reiterates the covenant and tells of the coming destruction for failing to keep the terms of the covenant, and gives a path forward.

TheDivineWatermark · 2024-09-28T01:31:14-0400

^ Well, somewhere else in this thread you mentioned (again) Revelation 1, verses 1 and 3. But as I see it, one shouldn't leave off verse 19 when considering this matter.

IOW, "19 WRITE
[1] the things which thou hast seen,
[2] and the things WHICH ARE [i.e. chpts 2-3],
[3] AND the things which must take place AFTER THESE [i.e. AFTER "the things WHICH ARE"]"

(it is this THIRD LISTED-item which corresponds with 1:1a "[TO SHEW UNTO...] things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." --NOT things which would unfold upon the earth over the course of some near-2000 years, as the Historicists have it; NOR things which must take place immediateLY [or other ADVERBS like 'soon'] as the Preterists have it.

)

____________

As for the matter of the phrase, "this generation" (in the gospels), let the readers see again my posts concerning the PLACEMENT of Lk21:32's verse "TILL ALL shall have taken place" coming after v.24's "OF LENGTHY-DURATION items"

Cameron143 · 2024-09-28T01:37:19-0400

TheDivineWatermark said:

^ Well, somewhere else in this thread you mentioned (again) Revelation 1, verses 1 and 3. But as I see it, one shouldn't leave off verse 19 when considering this matter.

IOW, "19 WRITE
[1] the things which thou hast seen,
[2] and the things WHICH ARE [i.e. chpts 2-3],
[3] AND the things which must take place AFTER THESE [i.e. AFTER "the things WHICH ARE"]"

(it is this THIRD LISTED-item which corresponds with 1:1a "[TO SHEW UNTO...] things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..." --NOT things which would unfold upon the earth over the course of some near-2000 years, as the Historicists have it; NOR things which must take place immediateLY [or other ADVERBS like 'soon'] as the Preterists have it.

)

____________

As for the matter of the phrase, "this generation" (in the gospels), let the readers see again my posts concerning the PLACEMENT of Lk21:32's verse "TILL ALL shall have taken place" coming after v.24's "OF LENGTHY-DURATION items"

But something did happen soon thereafter that you ignore.

TheDivineWatermark · 2024-09-28T01:41:21-0400

TheDivineWatermark said:

I had meant to also INCLUDE 1Tim6:15 with these, "Which IN HIS TIMES He SHALL SHEW [OPENLY MANIFEST]..." (where the end of this verse corresponds with the other verses I referenced there).

I believe all of that is yet "FUTURE"

TheDivineWatermark · 2024-09-28T01:52:41-0400

Cameron143 said:

Well, if you are referring to the wording in verse 1 (Rev1:1), the word "soon [adverb]" is not used, but rather, [what John is going to be "SHOWN" is said to be] "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"

(and that "SHEW YOU" doesn't start till 4:1 "AFTER THESE things [i.e. AFTER chpts 2-3's "things WHICH ARE"] I looked, and..." and then that verse concludes with Him saying, "Come up hither, and I WILL SHEW YOU things which must take place AFTER THESE things"... [i.e. after "the things WHICH ARE," which things ARE NOT said OF THEM that THEY are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS," by contrast])

When one then COMPARES "the beginning of birth PANGS" with the SEALS of Rev6 (and sees they are the SAME ITEMS), then one can consider the "SEQUENCE ISSUES" of the Olivet Discourse, where the "70ad events" are said to take place "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs (i.e. [before all the] SEALS), per v.12 of Lk21. So there's that

[IOW, understanding the "sequence" completely NEGATES the idea that the "70ad events" is what Rev (and MUCH of the Olivet Discourse, except for about 12 verses) is about]

TMS · 2024-09-28T02:03:33-0400

Genez said:

I don't read that in the bible.

Jesus said he will come again, second coming, and we shall be with the Lord forever more.

Joh 14:2-3
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Those mansions in Heaven are prepared by Jesus for us to be with Him.

I don't see any verses about a secret rapture.
It will be a surprise to those that are not prepared.

When Jesus comes judgement is finished
There is no second chance after probation closes. His reward is with Him.

Rev 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Notice how it says "and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Nothing about 2 or 3 second comings.

Cameron143 · 2024-09-28T02:15:00-0400

TheDivineWatermark said:

Actually, the book of Revelation deals directly with the events of 70AD. You have a new covenant introduced and an intercovenental period where the old passes and the new is fully revealed. You're missing the whole point of the book. It was written to bless those and help those who were getting ready to go through the destruction of Jerusalem.

TheDivineWatermark · 2024-09-28T03:34:00-0400

Cameron143 said:

A couple of things to CONSIDER (re: the BOLD ^ ) :

-- Zec 12:10 says,
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

"WHO" is the "THEY" referring to in this verse? ^ ; not the Roman soldiers... right?;

--John 19 confirms this, where, though v.34 states, "And ONE of the soldiers with A SPEAR pierced his side...," a few verses later says, "And again another scripture saith, THEY shall look on him whom THEY pierced." (even though v.34 states specifically that "ONE of the soldiers with A SPEAR pierced his side..."); So, IOW, though it was ONE SOLDIER who, using A SPEAR, "pierced" Him, scripture seems to apply it to others who IN AGREEMENT were onlooking or had consented to His crucifixion (i.e. the ones mentioned in the Zech12:10 passage ['they,' specifically])

[note: I do believe Rev1:7 refers to His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 time-slot, rather than the John 19:34 time-slot (the Cross) now past]

Cameron143 · 2024-09-28T03:51:06-0400

TheDivineWatermark said:

A couple of things to CONSIDER (re: the BOLD ^ ) :

-- Zec 12:10 says,
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

"WHO" is the "THEY" referring to in this verse? ^ ; not the Roman soldiers... right?;

--John 19 confirms this, where, though v.34 states, "And ONE of the soldiers with A SPEAR pierced his side...," a few verses later says, "And again another scripture saith, THEY shall look on him whom THEY pierced." (even though v.34 states specifically that "ONE of the soldiers with A SPEAR pierced his side..."); So, IOW, though it was ONE SOLDIER who, using A SPEAR, "pierced" Him, scripture seems to apply it to others who IN AGREEMENT were onlooking or had consented to His crucifixion (i.e. the ones mentioned in the Zech12:10 passage ['they,' specifically])

[note: I do believe Rev1:7 refers to His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 time-slot, rather than the John 19:34 time-slot (the Cross) now past]

Those in the passage are no doubt 1st century Jews who later were saved. But even if you don't believe those that pierced Him refers to Roman soldiers, you just asserted here and earlier, that it was referring to 1st century individuals.
Also, pierced doesn't only mean spearing. The nails pierced Him as well.

TheDivineWatermark · 2024-09-28T04:21:43-0400

Cameron143 said:

So what you are saying, is that you do NOT agree that:

--Luke 21:8-11 is speaking of "the beginning of birth pangs" (exactly like Mt24:4-8 & Mk13:5-8 also do);

--and that verse 12 of that chapter (Lk21) states clearly "But BEFORE ALL THESE..." (i.e. BEFORE all of the "beginning of birth pangs" vv.8-11 JUST TALKED ABOUT), BEFORE ALL THOSE, the events of vv.12-24a,b [the 70ad events] MUST TAKE PLACE FIRST (*BEFORE* all of those items in vv.8-11);

--and that "the beginning of birth pangs" (Mt24:4-8... Mk13:5-8... AND Lk21:8-11) ARE "the SEALS" of Rev6 (SEALS 1-5);

--and that, the "end / outcome" of the 70ad events is spelled out in v.24a "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"; but by contrast, the "end / outcome" of "the beginning of birth pangs" (and those "birth pangs" which FOLLOW ON from "the beginning of" them) is COMPLETELY OPPOSITE, in that, Matt24:29-31/Isaiah 27:9,12-13 speaks of their being "GATHERED" ("one by one") to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM" (IOW, the one being BEFORE all the beginning of birth pangs; the other being AFTER the beginning of birth pangs and those pangs which follow on from "the beginning" of them--i.e. COMPLETELY OPPOSITE ENDS / OUTCOME / results)

I completely disagree, based on the "SEQUENCE ISSUES" of the Olivet Discourse (and the parts of Rev which DO PARALLEL that, namely the SEALS [BEING "the beginning of birth PANGS"], which SEALS are at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 speaks to), and which will unfold and lead up to His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19). Not "soon [adverb]" (from when written), per these verses I've underlined [/explained earlier].

____________

On a slightly different note: who do you believe it refers to, where Rev2:13 says, "wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you..." ?

TheDivineWatermark · 2024-09-28T06:28:37-0400

^ To go along with my Post #173, I recommend that the readers take note of Jeremiah 32 (read the whole chapter, but see vv.6-12, noting its key words), and I will just quote verse 14 here,

Jer 32:14
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Take these evidences, this evidence of the purchase, both which is sealed, and this evidence which is open; and put them in an earthen vessel, that they may continue many days."

After you read the entire chapter (including this ^ v.14), then I recommend reading these two commentaries on that chapter

:

-- Gaebelein - Jeremiah 32 Gaebelein's Annotated Bible (biblehub.com)

-- William Kelly - Jeremiah 32 William Kelly Major Works Commentary (biblehub.com)

Then CONSIDER just why Jesus had stated, in Matt23:38-39, "Behold, your house is LEFT unto you desolate. FOR I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, henceforth, TILL ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." (similar language from a particular OT section of scripture: "not see... UNTIL [/unless]...");

... and note that Lk21:24b says, "AND Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles [Rv11:2 also] UNTIL..."

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Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

TMS

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Genez

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TheDivineWatermark

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Cameron143

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TheDivineWatermark

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Cameron143

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TheDivineWatermark

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TheDivineWatermark

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TMS

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Cameron143

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TheDivineWatermark

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Cameron143

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TheDivineWatermark

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TheDivineWatermark

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