Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Inquisitor]

As I understand it, the next prophetic event is Christ appears in the heavens where His Church meets Him in the air and He removes them to where He is (Resurrection of the Church saints). Then the anti-christ is revealed when he sets up a treaty with Israel which begins the 7year tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation, Christ returns (Second Coming), removing all unbelievers from the earth leaving only believers to enter the Millennium along with resurrecting the tribulation martyrs (and possibly OT Israel believers as well). Then Christ reigns on Earth from Jerusalem, providing perfect world conditions for 1,000 years dealing swiftly with any and all rebellion and/or crime (not that there will be much). During this time Satan is bound but released at the end of the Millennium. He then gathers those who, even though having lived in perfect world conditions are still not happy with the Lord, (showing us clearly evil begins within not from outward circumstances) and the war of Armageddon follows which is put down very swiftly and then comes the end with Satan being thrown into the Lake of Fire, the General resurrection and then this universe is destroyed and the everlasting universe is created.

That's a rough overview as I understand things when you put all the passages together.

I believe Isaiah saw the new earth on this earth (ie.Millennium earth) as it will be one of great peace and prosperity. I don't think he saw the eternal earth as I think how it is made will be different from how this one was made. The new eternal earth will have an in built "everlasting quality" (for lack of a better term) imo.

A baffling post?

At the end of the Tribulation, Christ returns (Second Coming), removing all unbelievers from the earth leaving only believers to enter the Millennium

If all unbelievers are taken at the end of the tribulation.

Where do Gog and Magog get their soldiers from?

 

[Genez]

A baffling post?


If all unbelievers are taken at the end of the tribulation.

Where do Gog and Magog get their soldiers from?

Where did all the unbelievers come from after Noah and his family exited the ark?
That new world began with only believers....

 

[sawdust]

A baffling post?


If all unbelievers are taken at the end of the tribulation.

Where do Gog and Magog get their soldiers from?

People are still in the flesh who enter the Millennium. There are still children being born and some of them will rebel just as people do now. No-one is completely free from sin until we are in our resurrection bodies.

 

[Omegatime]

Zech. 14:16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths.

This is talking about unrighteous people who enter the millennium.

Unless you put all the pieces together you will be lost

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Zech. 14:16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths.

This is talking about unrighteous people who enter the millennium.

Unless you put all the pieces together you will be lost

At the time-slot you are referring to, this is what will take place:

-- "And before Him shall be gathered ALL NATIONS...";


--to the "Sheep (OF THE NATIONS), He will say, "Come, ye BLESSED of My Father, inherit the kingdom having been prepared for you FROM the foundation of the world" (i.e. they will ENTER the MK age... in their mortal bodies);


--to the others He will say, "ye CURSED" (and they will NOT ENTER the MK age);


--the Zech verse isn't saying that 100% of the populations "of the nations" participated in the "coming against" Jerusalem (in other words, Jesus is not going to FAIL at that point by accidentally missing a few [in what verse 12 describes] "who are on the wrong team," so to speak, so that they "skate past" this, and thus enter the MK age [though being "unbelievers"], no!);


--His disciples asked Him a question in Matt24:3 that was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]"... when the angels will "REAP"). So Jesus *response* (in chpts 24-24) corresponds with what we read in Matt13 ABOUT THIS Subject... and there, it also refers to a similar SEPARATION-judgment (and this chpt 13 about "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" follows the context of the previous chapter where Jesus had already referred to "the age [singular] to come]"--i.e. what the disciples understood rightly to BE what we today call "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age")




So yes, it has already been taken into consideration by those of us holding the pre-trib rapture view.
Zech 14 has not been overlooked or missed, and also "fits" perfectly into its proper place.

This [as 'believers'/saints/the righteous] will be "LEFT" on the earth, to ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies (just as both Matt24 & Lk17 talked about).




[note that the "left" word in Zech14:16LXX is the same Greek word used in Titus 1:5 - kataleipo G2641 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/tit/1/5/t_conc_1130005 ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So Jesus *response* (in chpts 24-24) corresponds with

EDIT to CORRECT: should read "in chpts 24-25"

 

[Omegatime]

Divine Watermark is correct in saying these are those who enter the millennium

The nations are unrighteous gentiles who came out the Tribulation

In this judgement the sheep are not saved by faith but works.

The Day of the Lord ( 1000 year reign) has been in place for some years

Being saved by faith ended when the Day of the Lord started.

The sheep are those who assisted the jews fleeing Jerusalem with nothing-providing water, food, clothing, ect

The goats go into eternal punishment

 

[Musicmaster]

Zech. 14:16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths.

This is talking about unrighteous people who enter the millennium.

Unless you put all the pieces together you will be lost

I hope you don't mind my asking, but where does the text and/or the context say that? Only those who do not have the mark, nor had worshipped the image of the beast, they will move on into the Millennium, yes.

Given that the Lord must rule the Millennium with an "iron rod," that gives ample indication that the offspring of the nations will become problematic if not kept in check. That it will not rain on the lands of the nations that refuse to attend the Feast of Tabernacles each year, that too speaks loud volumes to the rebellious spirit that will still be in the hearts of men, even within that pristine environment.

It even seems reasonable to say that the babies born in the Millennium will be those who had been killed or died in this world prior to the tribulation so that they will be guaranteed to reach the point of accountability for sin. I say that because it has always been the reality that most of humanity rejects God, which would hold true of the children and babies who died before reaching that point of account. It just seems just to my thinking that the Lord will do that to ensure the totality of justice rather than to place into Heaven those millions who would otherwise have rejected Him in this life. But, this is just my thinking on that topic that was never revealed anywhere in scripture of which I am aware. Some of us Messianic Jews believe this, some do not, which is fine because it's not central to the faith.

MM

 

[Omegatime]

I hope you don't mind my asking, but where does the text and/or the context say that? Only those who do not have the mark, nor had worshipped the image of the beast, they will move on into the Millennium, yes.

Given that the Lord must rule the Millennium with an "iron rod," that gives ample indication that the offspring of the nations will become problematic if not kept in check. That it will not rain on the lands of the nations that refuse to attend the Feast of Tabernacles each year, that too speaks loud volumes to the rebellious spirit that will still be in the hearts of men, even within that pristine environment.

It even seems reasonable to say that the babies born in the Millennium will be those who had been killed or died in this world prior to the tribulation so that they will be guaranteed to reach the point of accountability for sin. I say that because it has always been the reality that most of humanity rejects God, which would hold true of the children and babies who died before reaching that point of account. It just seems just to my thinking that the Lord will do that to ensure the totality of justice rather than to place into Heaven those millions who would otherwise have rejected Him in this life. But, this is just my thinking on that topic that was never revealed anywhere in scripture of which I am aware. Some of us Messianic Jews believe this, some do not, which is fine because it's not central to the faith.

MM

---------------------------------------------------------
We are not saved by works in this age but in the age to come.

I agree a rebellious spirit will still abound, even death still applies, but a much different time than the age we live in now. As you quoted --rod of iron.

I disagree the babies who died previously will be those born in the millennium.

I would like to add those who were unrighteous jews were not included in the sheep/goat judgement. One third of the jews who survive will enter the kingdom in the millennium.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In this judgement the sheep are not saved by faith but works.

The Day of the Lord ( 1000 year reign) has been in place for some years

Being saved by faith ended when the Day of the Lord started.

A few things, about this part of your post ^ :

--"the Day of the Lord" (per Paul 1Th5:1-3) ARRIVES [/STARTS] with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus had spoken of), which "beginning of birth PANGS" *ARE* the "SEALS" (so the FIRST one is the START of the "7 year period"); The day of the Lord does not ARRIVE at the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), but will still be in existence then (as well as throughout the entire MK age--All three aspects pertain to that/DOTL);


--I do not believe that these "Sheep" will be saved by works, but that these particular works (during the Trib yrs) will be evidence of their "faith" (I agree that "the least of these My brethren" vv.40,45 [who I believe are the believing remnant of Jews, in the Trib yrs] are NOT who are BEING judged in this separation-judgment);


--Matt24:9 ("ye shall be hated by all the nations for My name's sake") also speaks of them being persecuted in the FIRST half (not merely after the ones "flee" from Judaea at MID-trib); The believing remnant of Jews are who will be DOING the "INVITING" (TO the MK age) DURING the Trib yrs... Matt24:14 / 26:13 speaks to this (invitation msg); some of the RESULTS of this invitation [msg going out during the trib yrs] are shown in Rev7:9,14 "a great multitude... of all the nationS..."

The sheep are those who assisted the jews fleeing Jerusalem with nothing-providing water, food, clothing, ect

Yes, and like I said above, even prior to the mid-point of the 7 yrs, as I see it. But yes, mostly thereafter (per Rev12:6,14,16a,17b).

The goats go into eternal punishment

Yes, and this corresponds with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21,22[,23] (parallel Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5a); whereas the SECOND "PUNISH" word in that text, corresponds with the LATER "GWTj" time-slot (when the final sentence is carried out, so to speak, re: "the DEAD [/unsaved]" of all times). In the Isaiah text, the two are separated by TIME... just as Rev 19 (2nd Coming to the earth) and Rev20 (GWTj) are. It's just that Rev supplies the "length" of time between the two (1000 years).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Only those who do not have the mark, nor had worshipped the image of the beast, they will move on into the Millennium, yes.

Agreed.




[zero UNbelievers will ENTER the MK age]

 

[cv5]

Agreed.




[zero UNbelievers will ENTER the MK age]

The "dividing" and the judgement did in fact happen. Much to the chagrin of the deniers.

 

[studentoftheword]

This may give you question and answers on the Pre-Trib Rapture

John MacArthur explains the Pre Trib Rapture

Worth the listen folks ------

The Great Disappearance Interview with Dr. David Jeremiah

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3545276242392625

 

[sawdust]

I hope you don't mind my asking, but where does the text and/or the context say that? Only those who do not have the mark, nor had worshipped the image of the beast, they will move on into the Millennium, yes.

Given that the Lord must rule the Millennium with an "iron rod," that gives ample indication that the offspring of the nations will become problematic if not kept in check. That it will not rain on the lands of the nations that refuse to attend the Feast of Tabernacles each year, that too speaks loud volumes to the rebellious spirit that will still be in the hearts of men, even within that pristine environment.

I agree with this part of your post.

It even seems reasonable to say that the babies born in the Millennium will be those who had been killed or died in this world prior to the tribulation so that they will be guaranteed to reach the point of accountability for sin. I say that because it has always been the reality that most of humanity rejects God, which would hold true of the children and babies who died before reaching that point of account. It just seems just to my thinking that the Lord will do that to ensure the totality of justice rather than to place into Heaven those millions who would otherwise have rejected Him in this life. But, this is just my thinking on that topic that was never revealed anywhere in scripture of which I am aware. Some of us Messianic Jews believe this, some do not, which is fine because it's not central to the faith.

I disagree with this part.

Reason being, although there are exceptions to the rule (ie. Lazarus), the Lord knowing all things would know how that child would have responded had they lived long enough and I think the Lord has allowed young death to test our own trust in Him. Do we trust Him to do what is right or not, even if we have no concrete evidence?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Of course, this too is just my opinion, but I think there are biblical grounds for it.