Questions about the bible !

[Tintin]

Really? I think most of his post was absolute nonsense (at least the origins part). For one, why do we trust fallen human beings and what they say (secular humanism's excuse for science) over godly men, indwelled and guided by Holy Spirit as to what to write?

 

[posthuman]

LOL, I asked you first. Your assumption of the pope is interesting.

assumption? i said "what does your pope say?"

i guess i assumed he was yours . . ?


but you're right, you asked. i don't know what your pope says.

so far as i know, the scriptures say nothing about this, but we do have in Luke 16:19-31 that when Lazarus died, he was carried by angels to rest in "Abraham's bosom" - no doubt euphemistic language - and that the rich man went straight to Hades. which doesn't sound euphemistic to me.
since the rich man was there pleading that Lazarus be sent back to warn his brothers, it's clear that there was not a 2,000+ year waiting period.

so what does your pope say ((if i may assume he is 'yours'))? what do your traditions say?
do they jive 100% with what the scripture says?

 

[posthuman]

what does your pope say,

and what does the word of God say?

let's compare.

forget what the spirit of the age says.

LOL, I asked you first. Your assumption of the pope is interesting.

o maybe now i get it -- do you think i "assumed" the pope was the 'spirit of the age' ?

but i expressed interest in what el pope says, and disinterest in what that spirit says.

so was that a Freudian slip, on your part? do you subconsciously associate the two?
LOL

 

[TonyJay]

Hey Tony!!!! This is the best post I have read so far here at ChristianChat! I learned a few things and you confirmed a lot for me. Thank you very much!!!!!!!

Thank you for your kind reply!

 

[Nikki84]

o maybe now i get it -- do you think i "assumed" the pope was the 'spirit of the age' ?

but i expressed interest in what el pope says, and disinterest in what that spirit says.

so was that a Freudian slip, on your part? do you subconsciously associate the two?
LOL

I'm sorry. I was put off by the namecalling of the pope. I really don't know what he thinks on the issue since he is in Rome and I am in Texas, I can't really just go and ask him. What does your el preacho think on this matter? Personally, I have always been told babies go to Heaven. My question, after your post basically condeming babies, was "Do babies go to Heaven when they die?". You have my answer. What do you have to say? That's all I wanted to know, not your opinion of the pope

 

[redeemed2014]

The story of Adam and Eve -Adam and Eve were like small children : innocent , naive and with no knowledge of right and
wrong.God punished them for breaking his only rule by banishing them from a life of bliss,abundance,
immortality and no pain in Eden to a life of struggle, pain and mortality. They were bound to make
mistakes and not listen to their father because they haven’t experienced yet the consequences of
doing that. Also we must not forget that God didn’t explain what death is. If they had known that
for their transgression the punishment would be so severe they probably wouldn't have eaten the
forbidden fruit. So the question is how an all loving, just God in his infinite wisdom and mercy
could punish his beloved children so drastically at their first mistake?Isn't God's justice perfect?

There is a lot to the OP so i would like to start with this one. Look past the judgement of God, you can see His love for Adam and Eve.

1. Once they ate of the Forbidden fruit and realized they were naked, God provided a covering for there shame, The Lord had every right to zap them from the face of the earth, because He created them and they disobeyed Him. But He did not because of his love for them.

2. If Adam and Eve ate of the tree of life after they have eaten the forbidden fruit they would have lived forever in there shame(sin) with no way to atone for it. In Genesis 3:15 God told them how he would defeat satan and redeem mankind so that they could live perfect without shame/sin which would have not been able to happen had they eaten of the tree of life. That is why God removed Adam and Eve from the garden and took the tree of life into heaven.

God Bless

 

[crossnote]

The story of Adam and Eve -Adam and Eve were like small children : innocent , naive and with no knowledge of right and
wrong.God punished them for breaking his only rule by banishing them from a life of bliss,abundance,
immortality and no pain in Eden to a life of struggle, pain and mortality. They were bound to make
mistakes and not listen to their father because they haven’t experienced yet the consequences of
doing that. Also we must not forget that God didn’t explain what death is. If they had known that
for their transgression the punishment would be so severe they probably wouldn't have eaten the
forbidden fruit. So the question is how an all loving, just God in his infinite wisdom and mercy
could punish his beloved children so drastically at their first mistake?Isn't God's justice perfect?

The question would be clearly understood and answered if we truly had a grasp on the heinousness of sin in the presence of a purely Holy God.
Perfect Justice? That would have demanded a strict consequence without mercy for Adam's sin.
The only reason we are beloved now is because of the bloody Sacrifice of His Beloved Son for our sin.

 

[ukok102nak]

:8) even the word science is written in the holy scripture
:read:
1 Timoteo: 6. 20. O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Daniel: 1. 4. Children in whom was no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.

science and the holy scripture never contradicts each other for only those who hates the trueth which is written inside the holy book made them complicated
and not all scientist are the same unto their view for more scientist believe in god

:smoke: as one of our brethren
told us about this instances which happened a long time ago
to a famous scientist
:read:
The professor of a university challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?" A student answered bravely, "Yes, he did".

The professor then asked, "If God created everything, then he created evil. Since evil exists (as noticed by our own actions), so God is evil. The student couldn't respond to that statement causing the professor to conclude that he had "proved" that "belief in God" was a fairy tale, and therefore worthless.

Another student raised his hand and asked the professor, "May I pose a question? " "Of course" answered the professor.

The young student stood up and asked : "Professor does Cold exists?"

The professor answered, "What kind of question is that? ...Of course the cold exists... haven't you ever been cold?"

The young student answered, "In fact sir, Cold does not exist. According to the laws of Physics, what we consider cold, in fact is the absence of heat. Anything is able to be studied as long as it transmits energy (heat). Absolute Zero is the total absence of heat, but cold does not exist. What we have done is create a term to describe how we feel if we don't have body heat or we are not hot."

"And, does Dark exist?", he continued. The professor answered "Of course". This time the student responded, "Again you're wrong, Sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in fact simply the absence of light. Light can be studied, darkness can not. Darkness cannot be broken down. A simple ray of light tears the darkness and illuminates the surface where the light beam finishes. Dark is a term that we humans have created to describe what happens when there's lack of light."

Finally, the student asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" The professor replied, "Of course it exists, as I mentioned at the beginning, we see violations, crimes and violence anywhere in the world, and those things are evil."

The student responded, "Sir, Evil does not exist. Just as in the previous cases, Evil is a term which man has created to describe the result of the absence of God's presence in the hearts of man."

After this, the professor bowed down his head, and didn't answer back.

The young man's name was ALBERT EINSTEIN.
as he also quote this ``When the solution is simple, God is answering.``

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[TonyJay]

I like your story about Albert Einstein but I completely fail to see the point of the quoted Scripture.

Your version may use the word "science" in those verses but other versions do not.
In 1 Tim 6:20 the Greek word γνώσεως (gnosis) is used.
This can be simply translated as knowledge or wisdom.
It should not be confused with a modern definition of science.

I haven't bothered to go and check the aramaic in Daniel but it almost certainly could be translated as wisdom.

 

[alexxcjRO]

--posthuman : "Jesus is not saying children are righteous, innocent or not corrupted."
I didnt said anything about Jesus.Wy do you assume things i didn't said?

Infants and young children are incapable of fully understanding either their spiritual condition
or God's requirements for salvation. Can God judge them even though they don't understand the
basis of that judgment? The Bible does indicate that children are innocent, for example, when
describing how some of the Israelites in the Valley of Benhinnom had become corrupt so as
to sacrifice their own (innocent) children:
"Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices
in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever
known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built
the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing
which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;" (Jeremiah 19:4-5)
There you have an analogy bettwen corrupt men and infans who are innocent.
"Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have
no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall
possess it. (Deuteronomy 1:39)"
The Bible clearly indicates that children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack
of ability to discern between good and evil, they are no capable of making moral choices.
In conclusion thery are moraly corect in the Eyes of God.
Lets see what righteous means = morally right or justifiable,good,virtuous,upstanding,worthy;
As we can see children are not corrupted but innocent and righteous in eyes of God.
"9 This is the account of Noah and his family.Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the
people of his time,and he walked faithfully with God.10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and
Japheth.11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how
corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways." (Genesis 6:9)
There you have an analogy bettwen corrupt men and Noah who are righteous.
So again i ask how come God did't saved the babies or young children but he did Noath ?




2.
Story of creation.
"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good,
and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness
he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."(Genesis 1:3)
“Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them
serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault
of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater
light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night.He also made the stars."(Genesis 1
These clearly says God made the light and after then the sun,moon and stars.
I think everyone here can accept that lights comes from out star the sun and that this is a fact
not just a teory . So then how can their be light without the sun?


--Agricola :"Science, what is science? Scientists are often wrong and interpret things incorrectly.
Another fact is that the all scientific fields are trying to explain how we all got here and what
makes the universe work without the need for God and rejecting supernatural."


We can just ignore science.
Let’s assume that the bible corect and the science not.God could have created the universe in any
fashion he would have wanted, being all powerful. But then man discovers and demonstrates through
scientific process (which has proven reliable in the past and present because it has given us all
the amazing inventions and things we use in our every day life like phones, televisions, cars,
planes, satellites, medicine, internet, etc) how the world around him works using the gifts God
bestowed upon him like intelligence, curiosity,logic, imagination and a desire to question everything
and then looks in the bible and sees a total different thing. Why would an all loving God in his
infinite wisdom want to confuse his most beloved creature and in the same time want for that creature
to find him and believe in his existence.That’s absurd.


3.Noah.
--nikki84:"Where does it say the animals only had seven days to board the ark?"
--TonyJay:"The time span of the account of Noah is never directly mentioned. We know how old Noah was
when he died but not how long it took to build and prepare the ark. It certainly was not a few days."


"Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of
every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird,
male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will
send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth
every living creature I have made.5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.”(Genesis 7:2-4)
Here cleary God says that seven days from that moment he made the statement :go and take the land
animals, the flood will come.
Noah had to go ~11,000 km to Australia to get kangaroos or ~10,000 km to North America to get
grizzly bears or ~5,000 km to China to get a panda bear and so on.
So again how come Noah managed to cover hundreds of thousand of km to colect all the animals
in just few days(or even few years)from every corner of the Earth?


4.God made a bunch of rules that if are to be violated by man in his life on Earth, there will
be severe consequences after death. Everyone will be judged at the end days depending on the
violations of these rules. But also God has given man free will and that means he can do as he
wishes in this life:he can choose to be a force of good or a force of evil in this world, to
love God, hate him or just ignore him, to avoid sin or embracing it. God then comes and kills
all humans except for Noah and his family for their being too corrupt, violent, and evil.
This goes in contradictions of the concept of free will,because if men really had free will
God shouldn’t have destroyed them for their choices before death. So how come that he did?


5.
--TonyJay:"Your observations about rainbows and the rain are not hard to explain.
Up until the appearance of the first rainbow there had never been direct sunlight on the earth.
Instead it was continually overcast."
This is not an enough explination . Are you telling me that not a single direct sunlight
passed through the clouds befor Noah .How do you know that it was continually overcast ?
Where in the bible says that ?Or its just an assumption of yours?


Hell
6.
--TonyJay:"As for the rest of us there has only ever been a single way: humble acknowledgement of sin
and unconditional repentance along with blood sacrifice.In this day and age Jesus Christ is our blood
sacrifice, a once-for-all blood sacrifice, so what we need to do confess our sins to God and repent
unconditionally. The Bible tells us that this is the ultimate expression of grace - even the faith
that is needed to believe that Christ's sacrifice is enough to cover all one's sins is a gift of God."
Your not offering a enough explanation of what i specifically asked.Your just saying what i said in
different words: that if we do not repent for hour sins we go to hell.
Let's put it more simple through an example :
I am a man who was born in preistoric times and believe that sun,moon are gods because he sees that
they gives me light and warmth.I pray to my god,whorship him,make sacrifices.I live a moral life and a
good life:love and respect my neighbour,my wife,children and my gods ,i do not commit murder,theft,
adultery.I maybe say some lies,covet anothers man wife or belongings,get jelous,angry,hatefull because
i am not perfect ,but overall I live a moral life.Then later God says in the bible that is forbidden
to whorship other gods.So our man even thow has lead a good life gets as a reward an eternety ot
torture and torment in hell just because he failed to figure it out that the sun,moon are not the real,
the only,true god.How can he repent for his sins if he doesn't know that is required,but even if he
would repent,it will be to wrong god.So he is doomed from the start. How is that perfect justice or
morally corect?

 

[TonyJay]

I will only reply to one issue that is raised:
You say "i am not perfect, but overall I live a moral life."

ANY sin separates you from God.
God does not deal in relative statements when it comes to sin.
Also your interpretation of what is sin and what is not does not count.
One is either a sinner or one is not.
I directed you to Romans - Paul answers all these questions.

 

[alexxcjRO]

Let's make another example :a man lives egyp in ancient time before there was a bible or jesus .During his life he makes s lot of bad things:kills,rapes,steals.He worships and prays to his god Ra .Let's say that at the late years of his life our man looks back and sees all the bad things he had done ,he feels bad an repents to his god Ra ,admits he did wrong and ask for forgiveness. How is this any different what christians do : sin and then repent to their God and ask for forgiveness.So our egyptian is doomed to hell just because he did not believe in the corect god.

 

[TonyJay]

Alex, who is Ra?
He is not God.
Ra might be god but he is not God.

As an incomplete example just to illustrate a point:
If you owe person A money but give the money to person B does that mean you are out of debt?

Please I beg of you - read what Paul has to say in Romans about this.

It is clear that you believe that God is unjust.
This is untrue but the evidence is there in Romans.
Paul explains how no-one from the beginning of time can shake his fist at God and accuse Him of being unjust.
In other words exactly the sort of people you are referring to in your example.

 

[alexxcjRO]

Your logic is not corect ... Ok, lets take your example:
Our egyptians ows money to person A(God of The bible) and gives money to person B(Ra).
His debt to A ,yes still exists but he doesn't know that he has a debt to person A(God of the bible)
because doesn't know that the person A exists at all.So how can this man repay his debt?
So is this man going to hell or not?

 

[TonyJay]

Alex Paul explains the connection in Romans.
Here is a little intro from chapter 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Romans 1:18-23

This passage clearly explains why no-one can stand before God and either claim ignorance or that God is unjust from any time in history.

 

[wwjd_kilden]

As for "evolution" vs creation: Who's Who in Creation/Evolution • CreationSuperLibrary.com • ChristianAnswers.Net

 

[alexxcjRO]

I know the quotes from Romans :
Paul says that people should find God through the revelation of the nature . Complexity of nature , life tells us that there must be a intelligent designer .
So let's say that our egyptian saw the beauty,complexity of nature , of life and believed that a superior being must had created their incredible world ,saw also that everyone around him worships this god Ra ,so then assume that Ra is that perfect being who created the world .So again because he did not assumed correctly he will spend an eternity of torture and torment in hell.

 

[TonyJay]

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Romans 1:19

No Alex, there is no wriggling out of this, Paul clearly demonstrates that would what may be known of God is not just external: because what may be know of God is manifest in them.
In other words every human being all through history has had enough knowledge of God within them to make the right choices.

Furthermore, Paul goes on to explain: because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
They knew God but they refused to acknowledge Him as such.

And then they went further: Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
So, in other words, they made God into their own image and then went further in reducing Him into the caricature of animals.
Currently, most Westerners are not worshipping idols in the form of animals but they are worshipping themselves. Many reject the Biblical version of God that is presented in favour of their own man-made ideas about God.

As Paul explains most emphatically: For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Alex, you are trying to imply that your mythical man misinterpreted who God was and ended up acknowledging and worshipping the wrong god, and therefore should not be condemned on this basis.
Paul makes it very clear that the mistake was not an "honest mistake".

 

[posthuman]

I'm sorry. I was put off by the namecalling of the pope. I really don't know what he thinks on the issue since he is in Rome and I am in Texas, I can't really just go and ask him. What does your el preacho think on this matter? Personally, I have always been told babies go to Heaven. My question, after your post basically condeming babies, was "Do babies go to Heaven when they die?". You have my answer. What do you have to say? That's all I wanted to know, not your opinion of the pope

that's nice to hear, actually - i assumed we were going to hear about purgatory. which so far as i know is entirely extra-biblical.

'preachadoro mio' -- well, i have many of those lol. but the 'main pastor' of the congregation i attend, he's never touched on the subject. which is an hard question.
or maybe not so hard.
all people are consigned to sin - and i believe the scripture is clear about this, and that we are not "innocent" from birth and then learn a sin nature later by nurture. it's more than just the residual guilt of Adam's sin, but an entire nature of evil.
but salvation is wholly and entirely by mercy. even the sacrificial system of Moses is about mercy - God accepting a duly performed action He had assigned, and having mercy on the people, looking over their sin. for us now, in His boundless grace, He has actually removed sin - not just looking over it, but completely taking it away.
so if it is all by mercy - i see no theological problem in believing that He looks over the nature of sin that every infant is born into the flesh with. all these sins have been paid for in full, with one sacrifice.

are you told that 'only the ones baptized' go to heaven? or all? just wondering. seems like a sticky point.

but all this is speculation -- we do not know at all. and if God judges that some should be spared and some should be the objects of His wrath, God is just and i cannot, dare not speak a word against Him.
but i imagine ((and it is imagination, not knowledge)) that what you said is the case.

how nice to agree

 

[alexxcjRO]

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse"

I don't concur with that fact that it is clearly seen .If that were the case we would not see so many religions and
gods ,billions of people refusing to see the obvious.The evidence points to the contrary.
God being this perfect,all powerful being who knows the future and exists in every point of space and time would know that revelation through nature is not very efficient and would have chosen a better way.Why no reveal himself to everyone like he did with Paul ?

But what about the rest of the issues i bring into question ? Not a single word?