1 Thess is only the words of Paul but in Matt 24 is the words straight from Jesus's mouth. Please show me from Matt 24 first.
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
wow!!!!!!! are you saying that we shouldn't believe the parts of the bible that paul was credited for???????
ok, from Matthew here it is:
Mt 4:4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
2ti 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:2ti 3:17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
A joke, meaning that you would never get any of your theology from a fictional book co-authored by Tim LaHaye? If you were to plainly speak on the joke part, you were making fun of the book in that it had nothing to contribute to your understanding about the scriptures because of the kind of theology the book is based upon. Instead of making fun of the theology, why don't you tell us what your theology and standing is concerning the rapture. Perhaps some of us would like a good laugh as well.
No, what I'm saying is, do you follow Paul or Christ? Paul followed Christ, so we should expect to see Paul's teaching match up with Christ's in Matt 24. So please show me from Matt 24 or any other quotes out of Jesus's mouth , where Christ clearly mentions a pre-trib rapture. If you get your pre-trib views from Paul's writings without showing me the same as from Christ's, you are following Paul, or rather, your misinterpration of Paul, than Christ's teaching.
paul was inspired By God, john the disciple was inspired By God it was John that wrote the bride was there before the first resurrection, we have to take every word not just the ones we want to use sorry. i just showed you matt. if that is the only book you want to read from . masn should not live by bread alone,
and actually the bride being there before the first resurrection was not only an inspiration from God to be recorded but was actually seen by John.
S
shinethelightforever
Guest
What if your teaching a false teaching ? What if post trib is false, does that mean your not a christian? No certainly not, we are only saved by grace not of works but by faith
D
Definition_Christ
Guest
*sighs* ...
2 Peter 3
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
yes, everyone believing in pretrib rapture has twisted Paul's words to invent a rapture theory which is not documented in the words of Christ.
D
Definition_Christ
Guest
You are calling people a follower of Paul because they build doctrines off his letters (AKA the Bible)... I don't understand?
That's right because they read into Paul's writings things that it doesn't say, in order to make up a theory that there is a pre-trib rapture, and this contradicts what is written in the Gospels that Christ taught.
If you can find such a doctrine from the mouth of Christ in the gospels that there is a pre trib rapture then please post it. Otherwise reading matthew from beginning to end reads as : a) tribulation, Christ, judgement, and Christ saying that whoever endures to the end will be saved and many will be persecuted for his sake. No pre-trib rapture or escape from tribulation by rapture is mentioned - end of story.
If you can find such a doctrine from the mouth of Christ in the gospels that there is a pre trib rapture then please post it. Otherwise reading matthew from beginning to end reads as : a) tribulation, Christ, judgement, and Christ saying that whoever endures to the end will be saved and many will be persecuted for his sake. No pre-trib rapture or escape from tribulation by rapture is mentioned - end of story.
D
Definition_Christ
Guest
Oh so when Paul wrote his letters to Rome, Corinth, the Hebrews, etc etc he remembered to throw in the Gospels as well right? Or did he just explain everything he could in a letter? Maybe he had a little deeper insight than you did and was inspired to write about the rapture?
Last edited:
Now why would Paul be inspired to write about a rapture that Jesus never communicated to his 12 apostles as recorded in the Gospels? That is fallacy number 1.
Even if Paul intended to communicate a new revelation to the church, and did so in his letters, why is this not recorded in Paul's essay on the pre-trib rapture, and why does it need to be squeezed out of Paul's letters - whose intent was not to communicate new revelation, nor to communicate any special type of teaching about the end-times that the church would not have already been aware of through the 12 apostles. That Paul intended to communicate any sort of new revelation about the end times that was not already known by his contemporaries is fallacy number 2.
Which brings me back to my first point about whether we are following Christ, or Paul - I do think the words from Jesus's mouth in the Gospels carries more weight than the supposed "pre trib rapture" teachings found in Paul's writings. Actually, those who suppose Paul taught a rapture have to "read into" Paul's writings in order to make that claim - it is certainly not clear. Because you have people sayin there's a difference between coming down to earth and meeting in the sky and all this it is reallly quite funny what logic people use as supposed proof for their false doctrines. It's sort of like saying if your granma can butter toast and let it fall on the floor with the buttered side down then it proves that your granma makes toast better than a popup toaster.
Even if Paul intended to communicate a new revelation to the church, and did so in his letters, why is this not recorded in Paul's essay on the pre-trib rapture, and why does it need to be squeezed out of Paul's letters - whose intent was not to communicate new revelation, nor to communicate any special type of teaching about the end-times that the church would not have already been aware of through the 12 apostles. That Paul intended to communicate any sort of new revelation about the end times that was not already known by his contemporaries is fallacy number 2.
Which brings me back to my first point about whether we are following Christ, or Paul - I do think the words from Jesus's mouth in the Gospels carries more weight than the supposed "pre trib rapture" teachings found in Paul's writings. Actually, those who suppose Paul taught a rapture have to "read into" Paul's writings in order to make that claim - it is certainly not clear. Because you have people sayin there's a difference between coming down to earth and meeting in the sky and all this it is reallly quite funny what logic people use as supposed proof for their false doctrines. It's sort of like saying if your granma can butter toast and let it fall on the floor with the buttered side down then it proves that your granma makes toast better than a popup toaster.
Last edited:
D
Definition_Christ
Guest
Okay let's use that logic with a few other Scriptures.
Matthew 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Galations 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
Oh.. Seeing how Christ never mentioned what the fruits of the Spirit were, we can not agree these are the fruit of the Spirit otherwise we become followers of Paul! Really Snail ? If we use that logic "if Jesus didn't say it, we can't believe it, even if it's written in the bible".. You would need to tear up the bible.. I don't know if you understand those who wrote the bible were "moved by the Holy Spirit"...
2 Peter
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Does that say "Just Christ's words were inspired by God.".. Or does it say "ALL SCRIPTURE" ?
Secondly if you are following Paul's words you are following Christ?....
1 Corinthians 11:1
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
The fact is 1st Thessalonians especially chapter 4 is as much proof for the POST TRIB rapture as any passage in all of scripture.
1st Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.\
The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, and we all know that is after the tribulation, not before it.
Mahogony is not saying Paul's writting are not inspiored, he is saying that Paul and Jesus are not speaking of two separate thing but the same when Jesus says He will return after the tribulation to gather the elect, it is the same thing Paul is writing about in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians we he is referring to the coming of Christ and the gathering of the saints. Paul as well as Jesus place the return of Christ the resurrection of the just, and the rapture of the living saints after the Tribulation not before it. M.S. is simply saying what Paul is teaching is not a new revelation, but the same that was already taught to the Apostles by Jesus Himself.
D
Definition_Christ
Guest
I think that could be talking about the generation present on Earth when Christ returns?... Like say if Christ was to come this generation we would be those "which are alive".
Nor is the pretrib rapture documented in the words of Paul, but invented by false teachers.
The fact remains that Christ returns after the Tribulation, not before it.
D
Definition_Christ
Guest
Yes.. Christ will return with all his saints after the tribulation no argument there.. Just the saints won't be here for the tribulation because they will of met up with Jesus' in the clouds. So that wouldn't technically be Christ returning to earth seeing how the sky is counted as the heavens?