Rapture= false teaching

[Marcus2x2]

And much of that apostasy will come during the tribulation because of the pretrib lie.

Matthew 24
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


The reason the evil servant will say in his heart the Lord has delayed His coming is because he was taught the Lord would come to rescue him before the Tribulation, but the trib will start there will have been no rapture, therefore he will say in his heart my Lord has delayed His coming and turn on Christ and other christians.

Surely it would logical to say that if one is a pretrib, one will be more earnest in being prepared for the Lord's return. Also it would be logical to state that if one thinks that Christ will return after/during the tribulation, that you could just kick back and relax and not worry about anything until the tribulation arrives! That passage of Scripture you have quoted really has little to do with pretribulationism. I would argue that "evil servant" is not evil becuse they believe in pretrib (which they probably don't or have no opinion on the subject) they're evil because they have not their heart right before God, esp. loving Christ and keeping His commandments! To apply this to pretribs is a considerable stretch!
Anyhow I have to get going now, I'll prbably be back on later today.

 

[Definition_Christ]

I think you just have so much hatred towards pretrib rapture even if someone proved it to you in the bible you wouldn't believe it because you are so against it. Yesterday you almost made a point until you suggested I studied into IT.. Now I have studied into it and it only affirmed my belief.

Let's play connect the dots!

Matthew 24
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

(note that does not say killed, that is just speculation with no evidence. It clearly says TAKEN.. Taken where? To be with Jesus!)

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

(So those who will be TAKEN UP.. Will be with the Lord Hence Matt 24:40-41 "TAKEN UP.. Paul just says CAUGHT UP"... It says COMFORT one another with these words..Not you will have to endure the great tribulation but you will NOT endure the great tribulation the Lord has already assured us of that!)

Luke 21 (Note this is AFTER Yeshua talks about the great tribulation you can read the whole chapter for context if you'd like but I want to point out a few key words)

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.
38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.

(So we will ESCAPE these things .. What things? The great tribulation.. We will be "caught up" (as Paul says) or "taken up" (As Yeshua says).. We will be in the clouds and escape from these things.. Are there anymore Scriptures to let us know we will NOT endure the tribulation? Sure!!)

Revelation 3
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:
8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

(So... AGAIN we have the PROMISE from Yeshua Himself we will be "KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TRAIL WHICH SHALL COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD" And some people are calling Yeshua a liar and saying Yeshua is preaching a false doctrine.)

So... What do we do? Believe man's lies saying we will endure the great tribulation or believe Yeshua?

(Note thanks for inviting me to investigate the Scriptures Watchmen)

If there is ANOTHER way to interpret these Scriptures please inform me on your interpretation.

 

[watchmen]

Surely it would logical to say that if one is a pretrib, one will be more earnest in being prepared for the Lord's return. Also it would be logical to state that if one thinks that Christ will return after/during the tribulation, that you could just kick back and relax and not worry about anything until the tribulation arrives!

I have never met a post tribber with this opinion. If you can't or won't live for Christ now you definitely won;t have the fortitude to live for Him during the Trib.

 

[watchmen]

I think you just have so much hatred towards pretrib rapture

I do hate the teaching of the pretrib rapture as i hate everything God hate, and all false doctrine, and evil creations of men.

even if someone proved it to you in the bible you wouldn't believe it because you are so against it.

If the bible taught the pretrib rapture i would be a pretribber. I was a pretribber all my life. i have been taught pretrib since my birth, I was brought up in a church that taught it and never doubted it, until I got saved and started studying God's word for myself. No one can study God's word and still believe the pretrib rapture. Of course you study a pretrib teachers, and there distortion of scripture you might, but not by study scripture alone.[/quote]

Yesterday you almost made a point until you suggested I studied into IT.. Now I have studied into it and it only affirmed my belief.

I suggested you study scripture not pretrib theologians, BIG MISTAKE. I truly feel for you, and will pray you receive the truth as you search, honestly, no sarcasm at all, you are in my prayers.

 

[MahogonySnail]

You see, the two witnesses are not witnessing, for evangelism, to save people, but for judgement:

Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

These aren't your regular evangelists, they are prophets sent to prophesy the destruction of the wicked:

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


Equally, the two witnesses does not have to be literally two people, it could symbolise a small proportion of those in the tribulation church preserved from apostasy, who are faithful to witness for Christ. Witnesses in this sense does not mean for evangelism necessarily, but holding fast and being faithful to the testimony of Christ and not worshipping the anti-christ. In fact, the word for "Witness" is derived from the word for "martyr".

Fire out of the mouth - this is not literally fire coming out of their mouth:
Jer_5:14, “Because ye speak this word, Behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire and this people wood, and it shall devour them.”

 

[Definition_Christ]

Thanks we can be prayer partners.. So how do you interpret those Scriptures?

 

[Definition_Christ]

You see, the two witnesses are not witnessing, for evangelism, to save people, but for judgement:

Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

These aren't your regular evangelists, they are prophets sent to prophesy the destruction of the wicked:

Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.


Equally, the two witnesses does not have to be literally two people, it could symbolise a small proportion of those in the tribulation church preserved from apostasy, who are faithful to witness for Christ. Witnesses in this sense does not mean for evangelism necessarily, but holding fast and being faithful to the testimony of Christ and not worshipping the anti-christ. In fact, the word for "Witness" is derived from the word for "martyr".

Fire out of the mouth - this is not literally fire coming out of their mouth:
Jer_5:14, “Because ye speak this word, Behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire and this people wood, and it shall devour them.”

Lol sorry to upset you but Moses wasn't making a prophecy about the End Times... That is the Jewish Civil Law if they had two or more witnesses than it is true..

John 8
13 The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”
14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.
15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.
16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”
19 Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”
Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”
20 These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.

They are witnesses in a sense of evangelism I don't know what you think they are doing? No it is not a symbolic meaning.. Fire out of the mouth.

Revelation 11
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

Is "Killed" or "Devour" symbolic also?

 

[watchmen]

I think you just have so much hatred towards pretrib rapture even if someone proved it to you in the bible you wouldn't believe it because you are so against it. Yesterday you almost made a point until you suggested I studied into IT.. Now I have studied into it and it only affirmed my belief.

Let's play connect the dots!

lets do!!!!!

Matthew 24
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

(note that does not say killed, that is just speculation with no evidence. It clearly says TAKEN.. Taken where? To be with Jesus!)

Lets look at exactly when they will be removed?
Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


So according to your own reference they are removed at the coming of Christ which we find out in this very chapter verses 29-31 is after the tribulation (Of course you wouldn't learn that by study pretrib false teachers)
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Once again this passage is proof for post trib in verse 15 it say the rapture occurs at the coming of Christ which we know for Matthew 24:29-31 and other passages is after the tribulation not be it.

(So those who will be TAKEN UP.. Will be with the Lord Hence Matt 24:40-41 "TAKEN UP.. Paul just says CAUGHT UP"... It says COMFORT one another with these words..Not you will have to endure the great tribulation but you will NOT endure the great tribulation the Lord has already assured us of that!)

The comforting thing about these words is that the dead are going to be raised not that the living our going to caught up.
1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

This whole passages is meant to comfort believers who freinds and families have already passed on not to teach a pretrib rapture. Matter of fact as i have already shown the setting of this whole event is at the post trib coming of Christ.

Luke 21 (Note this is AFTER Yeshua talks about the great tribulation you can read the whole chapter for context if you'd like but I want to point out a few key words)

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.
38 Then early in the morning all the people came to Him in the temple to hear Him.

(So we will ESCAPE these things .. What things? The great tribulation.. We will be "caught up" (as Paul says) or "taken up" (As Yeshua says).. We will be in the clouds and escape from these things.. Are there anymore Scriptures to let us know we will NOT endure the tribulation? Sure!!)

#1 You cannot escape the tribulation if you never were in it. How can you escape anything you are not in? you cannot escape a bad relationship if you are not first in a bad relationship, you cannot escape prison without first being in prison ect.. This verse if anything disproves the pretrib rapture , it doesn;t prove it.

#2
Luke 21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.



Right here in this same chapter ''Luke 21'' Jesus makes it crystal clear that when the tribulation is at its height when men are being killed when the earth is acting up, when men are falling over dead because of fear then our redemption (the rapture) draws near. Luke 21 proves the post trib rapture not the pretrib. What you need to do is study your Bible not pretrib teachers.

Revelation 3
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:
8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

The sad thing is although this is the closest thing pretribbers have to a valid scripture this verse in no way hints that the church will be removed from the earth but simply keep from the hour of temptation.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

As you see God does not need to remove us from the earth to keep us from evil, temption or anything else.

(So... AGAIN we have the PROMISE from Yeshua Himself we will be "KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TRAIL WHICH SHALL COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD" And some people are calling Yeshua a liar and saying Yeshua is preaching a false doctrine.)

the sad thing is although this is the closest thing pretribbers have to a valid scripture this verse in no way hints that the church will be removed from the earth but simply keep from the hour of temptation.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

As you see God does not need to remove us from the earth to keep us from evil, temption or anything else.

So... What do we do? Believe man's lies saying we will endure the great tribulation or believe Yeshua?

(Note thanks for inviting me to investigate the Scriptures Watchmen)

If there is ANOTHER way to interpret these Scriptures please inform me on your interpretation.

Mans lie is that of a pretrib rapture and yes i believe Jesus not mans lie. you shouldn;t interpret scripture you should just accept it as written, and you definitely should believe someone elses false interpretation of scripture.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Definition Christ,

re: witnesses, whatever is in the new testament in the spiritual has precedent in the old. Why two? Because God needs two witnesses in order to sentence someone to death.


Re: fire out of the mouth - You have to understand the symbolic imagery of Revelation before you can understand Revelation. I suppose you also think that a sword literally comes out of Jesus's mouth or there is literally a real fire breathing dragon. Must be killed - their enemies will not be killed by a sword or gun or fire ocming out of their mouth. It's symbolic, they are "killed" by the Word of God, and the judgements God exacts on the wicked, either in the tribulation period, or in the last days judgement with the lake of fire/second death. If it was literal fire, it would come down from heaven, as in the case of Elijah and the prophets of baal. In this case, it comes out of their mouth, which is symbolic for the words which they are speaking. See Jer_5:14.

Revelations is not a movie like the Left Behind series where they had the two witnesses being shot with bullets and it didnt hurt them and they responded with fire out of their mouth hahahaha, it's symbolic. You need to get your mind from fleshly/carnal ways of reading Revelation and onto spiritual things.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Definition Christ,

re: witnesses, whatever is in the new testament in the spiritual has precedent in the old. Why two? Because God needs two witnesses in order to sentence someone to death.


Re: fire out of the mouth - You have to understand the symbolic imagery of Revelation before you can understand Revelation. I suppose you also think that a sword literally comes out of Jesus's mouth or there is literally a real fire breathing dragon. Must be killed - their enemies will not be killed by a sword or gun or fire ocming out of their mouth. It's symbolic, they are "killed" by the Word of God, and the judgements God exacts on the wicked, either in the tribulation period, or in the last days judgement with the lake of fire/second death. If it was literal fire, it would come down from heaven, as in the case of Elijah and the prophets of baal. In this case, it comes out of their mouth, which is symbolic for the words which they are speaking. See Jer_5:14.

Revelations is not a movie like the Left Behind series where they had the two witnesses being shot with bullets and it didnt hurt them and they responded with fire out of their mouth hahahaha, it's symbolic. You need to get your mind from fleshly/carnal ways of reading Revelation and onto spiritual things.

Yeah okay.. That makes a lot of sense now that I can see where you are coming from. You take everything symbolic you must not even believe we are going to have a great tribulation because it's probably symbolic. No wonder you don't believe in the rapture. I can't believe you would actually believe this though it is not surprising to me.

 

[watchmen]

(So... AGAIN we have the PROMISE from Yeshua Himself we will be "KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TRAIL WHICH SHALL COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD" And some people are calling Yeshua a liar and saying Yeshua is preaching a false doctrine.)

I reposted the wrong this in response to this quote. what was supossed to be there is this......I am calling the person you copied and pasted this teaching a liar, not Jesus. Jesus never taught we would be removed from the earth before the Tribulation, and many of the verses you have posted here in support of the pretrib rapture actually prove that we will be here until the post trib return of Christ, such as Matthew 24:37-41, and 1 Thess 4:13-18.

 

[Definition_Christ]

I reposted the wrong this in response to this quote. what was supossed to be there is this......I am calling the person you copied and pasted this teaching a liar, not Jesus. Jesus never taught we would be removed from the earth before the Tribulation, and many of the verses you have posted here prove it.

I didn't copy and paste any teachings. The only thing I copied was bible verses from biblegateway.com.

 

[Definition_Christ]

And sorry Watchmen your whole theory of Matthew 24:40-41 they will be raptured AFTER the tribulation?... Um there isn't going to be anyone left on Earth after the tribulation.

Revelation 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 

[watchmen]

I didn't copy and paste any teachings. The only thing I copied was bible verses from biblegateway.com.

yuo are trying to tell me that you came up with that teaching by your self by reading the Bible? and if so you are telling me you saw Matthew 24:40-41 but did not see the fact that it occures at the coming of Christ via verses 37-39?, and that you did not understand what Paul was saying in 1 Thess 4 but only saw verse 17 which has not pretrib context at all, and place it before the trib? and you read all of Luke 21 and only saw verse 36, while ignore the rest of the chapter that clearly shows we will be here fore the trib, amnd you found Revelat 3:10 with no help from any pretrib teacher what so ever? Is that what you want me to believe? Because it normally takes someone years and years of indoctrination, training to be so qualified at ignoring and twisting scripture.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Yeah okay.. That makes a lot of sense now that I can see where you are coming from. You take everything symbolic you must not even believe we are going to have a great tribulation because it's probably symbolic. No wonder you don't believe in the rapture. I can't believe you would actually believe this though it is not surprising to me.

I believe that it's both literal and symbolic, but you interpret literally what is actually symbolic, and so get them confused, like the left behind movies and computer games hahahah.

I don't believe in a pre trib rapture because you pre trib people have absolutely no evidence for it from the bible or early church writings and majority of well respected protestant christian theologians don't believe in it. I once did believe in pre trib rapture for most of my life but thats because I dind't bother to check what the churches or pastor or books were telling me. Then I realised pre trib rapture is not the mainstream christian viewpoint.

 

[watchmen]

And sorry Watchmen your whole theory of Matthew 24:40-41 they will be raptured AFTER the tribulation?... Um there isn't going to be anyone left on Earth after the tribulation.

Revelation 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

What???? Have you ever heard of the Millennium? Because the Anti christ and fal;se prophet are thrown into the lake of fire doesn;t mean that no one will be here on earth with Christ during the millennium.
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Definition_Christ]

I believe that it's both literal and symbolic, but you interpret literally what is actually symbolic, and so get them confused, like the left behind movies and computer games hahahah.

I don't believe in a pre trib rapture because you pre trib people have absolutely no evidence for it from the bible or early church writings and majority of well respected protestant christian theologians don't believe in it. I once did believe in pre trib rapture for most of my life but thats because I dind't bother to check what the churches or pastor or books were telling me. Then I realised pre trib rapture is not the mainstream christian viewpoint.

Okay and at what point does Mr Snail choose what is symbolic and what is not? Please teach me so I can know.

 

[Definition_Christ]

What???? Have you ever heard of the Millennium? Because the Anti christ and fal;se prophet are thrown into the lake of fire doesn;t mean that no one will be here on earth with Christ during the millennium.
Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Yeah.. that would be AFTER He comes and destroys those who are on Earth as I just posted in Revelation 19...

 

[timjim]

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. John 17:15

What i'm worried about is that the people who believe so strong on the pre-trib and are absolutely sure it will happen. Because if it dosent happen, which I can't see enough Biblical prove to support it, then I'm afraid a lot of these people will not know what to believe and that they might fall down and worship the antichrist. Since the antichrist is going to claim to be God.

 

[STEPHAN]

Yes I am not saying that Paul is not inspired, I'm saying there must be consistency between what Paul and Christ taught. The fact that Christ taught about end times events to His disciples but neglected to inform them about such a great thing as a pre-trib rapture????!!, but rather chose to let Paul do that in some obscured hidden message within his letters to churches ?! That cannot be. The absense of Christ teaching it, indicates that Paul did not believe or teach it either, and therefore the interpretation of certain scriptures of Paul must be misinterpreted by pre-tribbers, there's only one correct doctrine on this issue.

Besides, the pre-trib rapture doctrine can be defeated by considering church history and early christian writings, alone, and then tracing the spread of this doctrine through christianity from the 1750-1800's to today. There's a reason why movies and games have been made about it, because it's a form of brainwashing and spreads the false doctrine quicker.

2 Kings 2:11 “Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!” So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces.”

Matthew 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matthew 24: 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.