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M
miktre
Guest
Nice response, too bad you provide not one word of scripture to back anything whatsoever at all.
I have no idea why people feel possessed to write "I'm right, youre wrong" and completely fail because they cannot provide any of the Word as to why.
re: post #680. Nice post miktre.
That's why I personally am partial pterist with post-tribulational tendencies which I think is the closest to the truth than not.
That's why I personally am partial pterist with post-tribulational tendencies which I think is the closest to the truth than not.
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greatkraw
Guest
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Ash_JFF
Guest
Watchman
You are right in saying that the second coming is after the tribulation but the rapture is before the tribulation.
Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole, to test those who dwell on the earth.
God is testing those who dwell on the earth. If God will keep us from the hour of testing (tribulation), then doesn't it make sense that the rapture will happen before the tribulation?
You are right in saying that the second coming is after the tribulation but the rapture is before the tribulation.
Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole, to test those who dwell on the earth.
God is testing those who dwell on the earth. If God will keep us from the hour of testing (tribulation), then doesn't it make sense that the rapture will happen before the tribulation?
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miktre
Guest
Jesus Christ said, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I will also keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10).
Many sincere prophecy teachers (and their followers) are now applying these words to the Rapture and to the sudden removal of the Church from this earth prior to Earth's final hour of temptation. on the surface, it may appear this way, yet a closer look is needed.
Jesus spoke these words to "the church in Philadelphia" (3:7), which was #6 out of seven churches receiving messages. It is obvious that Christ's words do not apply only to the literal church of Philadelphia which existed almost 2000 years ago in Asia minor, for if they did, then they have no relevance to any Christian today. Most scholars correctly realize that those "seven churches" (1:20) represent seven periods in the history of Christianity, yet each letter also contains practical lessons for Christians of all time.
The truth is, Revelation 3:10 does not speak of a Rapture. It simply says the faithful in the church of Philadelphia, who have "kept the word," will be kept from the hour of trial. once we understand that Philadelphia is followed by the church of Laodicea, which represents the final period of Christianity, then we can easily see that the reason why Jesus told the Philadelphians He would keep them from the hour of trial is not because they would be raptured, but because they simply would not be living on earth during the final time of trial.
We are living during the time of Laodicea, when the majority of Christians are lukewarm and half-hearted. Soon the final "hour of temptation" will burst upon us. only those who are truly faithful to Jesus Christ and to the Word of God will "stand in the evil day" (Ephesians 6:13). The Master said, "He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13). Through
Christ's love and the power of the cross, may we each be among those who "overcome" (Revelation 3:12, 21).
Many sincere prophecy teachers (and their followers) are now applying these words to the Rapture and to the sudden removal of the Church from this earth prior to Earth's final hour of temptation. on the surface, it may appear this way, yet a closer look is needed.
Jesus spoke these words to "the church in Philadelphia" (3:7), which was #6 out of seven churches receiving messages. It is obvious that Christ's words do not apply only to the literal church of Philadelphia which existed almost 2000 years ago in Asia minor, for if they did, then they have no relevance to any Christian today. Most scholars correctly realize that those "seven churches" (1:20) represent seven periods in the history of Christianity, yet each letter also contains practical lessons for Christians of all time.
And lukewarm or not, Jesus still refers to them as "the Church"!
With this in mind, we must realize again that Revelation 3:10 was given to Philadelphia, which is then followed by "lukewarm" Laodicea (3:14 - 22). Even if Revelation 3:10 does depict a secret Rapture, this would not mean the church would be gone during the Tribulation. Why? Because the Laodicean church comes after Philadelphia, and thus its Christians would still be left on earth. And lukewarm or not, Jesus still refers to them as "the Church"!
The truth is, Revelation 3:10 does not speak of a Rapture. It simply says the faithful in the church of Philadelphia, who have "kept the word," will be kept from the hour of trial. once we understand that Philadelphia is followed by the church of Laodicea, which represents the final period of Christianity, then we can easily see that the reason why Jesus told the Philadelphians He would keep them from the hour of trial is not because they would be raptured, but because they simply would not be living on earth during the final time of trial.
We are living during the time of Laodicea, when the majority of Christians are lukewarm and half-hearted. Soon the final "hour of temptation" will burst upon us. only those who are truly faithful to Jesus Christ and to the Word of God will "stand in the evil day" (Ephesians 6:13). The Master said, "He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13). Through
Christ's love and the power of the cross, may we each be among those who "overcome" (Revelation 3:12, 21).
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How can you say that the 2nd coming is after the tribulation but the rapture is before the Tribulation, when the bible places the rapture on the same day as the coming of Christ.
Scriptures that show that the resurrection of the just and the catching away or rapture of the living saints, is at the post trib 2nd coming
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because the next scripture I use speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead, but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.
Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop the book right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.
1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrection at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.
2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth and then the anti christ will be revealed and then the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.
1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming.
God does not need to remove us from the earth to keep us from tribulation, evil or testing. Matter of fact if god did remove us from the earth He would be doing it against the wishes of Christ (which we know He would never do)
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
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greatkraw
Guest
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sunshine_debbie
Guest
Watchman,
I admire your research, your dedication, your conviction, and your tenacity. But I disagree. I am trying to live my life the way God wants and demands from his holy word. I was always taught that the rapture was before the tribulation. In fact, I have been listening to Jack Van Impe since I was old enough to kick in my mothers womb. However, even if some of the greatest scholars of all time have the translation or the interpretation incorrect and the rapture is at the end of the tribulation, in what way would that change the way that you pray, live your life according to God's rules, read your Bible, witness for salvation to others? I see nothing that would change in ANY of those things. So what difference does it make?
Debbie
I admire your research, your dedication, your conviction, and your tenacity. But I disagree. I am trying to live my life the way God wants and demands from his holy word. I was always taught that the rapture was before the tribulation. In fact, I have been listening to Jack Van Impe since I was old enough to kick in my mothers womb. However, even if some of the greatest scholars of all time have the translation or the interpretation incorrect and the rapture is at the end of the tribulation, in what way would that change the way that you pray, live your life according to God's rules, read your Bible, witness for salvation to others? I see nothing that would change in ANY of those things. So what difference does it make?
Debbie
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oopsies
Guest
Yes, we are going round the merry go round again... unfortunately. Even if the proper verses are presented, neither side will be convinced.
O
oopsies
Guest
Debbie, don't bother. I already pointed that out. If you push, he will just say that he's been appointed the watchman's role of waking up the rest of us. See post #627 and the subsequent holier than thou response.
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sunshine_debbie
Guest
I already have a watchman, and a Savior, and a Father, and a Redeemer, and a Counselor, and an advocate, and on and on and on..... That is Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
I didnt mean to start an argument, I was just wondering why something that makes no difference to actual salvation makes people so heated with one another.
I will refrain in the future, I was just wondering, really,
Debbie
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sunshine_debbie
Guest
I read your post that said the same thing as mine. Not only did you say what I was trying to say in a more eloquent and Godly way, but you were kind and loving as Jesus wants us to be. If I needed an example of a way to be more Christ like, you just gave me one. Thank you
Debbie
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oopsies
Guest
That will probably happen once in a blue moon given my own personality!
lol But thank you, it does give me some encouragement. ^.^
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miktre
Guest
If I may
The greatest deception in history is going to take place, that's the difference. The pre-trib rapturists are setting themselves up for this great deception. You see, the pre-tribers are looking for the first ole thing to come along. The Bible says satan himself shall come first to deceive the whole world, even the elect if it were possible. Now satan is a very very beautiful angel and shall proclaim to the entire world that he is God. He will also have with him all power and signs and lying wonders (supernatural abilities). He will be setting up his phoney throne in in Gods favourite place, Jerusalem, for his pride he always wanted to be the one to sit in the mercy seat. Satan comes to bring a false peace to a broken one world government. The endtime flood is not a flood of water, but a flood of lies. The true famine is not of food, it is a spiritual famine of Gods word, our daily bread taught correctly and not twisted by satan in endtimes.
8Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
11Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
13In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
4They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
Let it be no big thing when satan lies to the pretribers and tells them we must stay for a bit to get more saved before their rapturing. Now when Christ comes and the pre-trib rapturists realize that they've already married then their guilt and shame shall overtake them and they will pray for mountains to fall on them. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Those days are rapidly approaching friend, it can effect one's salvation.
Receive the love of the Truth in Jesus Christ's precious name, Amen
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miktre
Guest
Forgot to mention the scripture was Amos 8:8-13
Also the flood of lies from satans mouth:
Revelation 12:15
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
The woman is symbolic of Christ's virgin bride.
Also the flood of lies from satans mouth:
Revelation 12:15
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
The woman is symbolic of Christ's virgin bride.
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miktre
Guest
Furthermore, would Christ waste his breath if it didn't make a difference? God forbid. Behold:
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
What is the product of a marriage? A child of course. Woe to those that have partaken in the marriage with satan. It has nothing to do with pregnant women or literal parents. To those with ears that hear.
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Wait a minute, Christ is telling us to pray and warns us there is going to be a false gathering and why. Because of a great tribulation!
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Why would He give us this warning if we weren't here?
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
If the elect were raptured away then why shortened the days? He also is giving us a good example of how powerful satans lies will be.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Why not? Because its satan himself!
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
False Christs? Hes referring to satan and his legions of fallen angels. False prophets? Well, hate to say it but some of those false prophets might consist of unwittingly pre-tribers.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Why? They are probably deceived themselves and want you to beleive the same lie.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
AH all glory to God, then here arrives our true husband with the brightness of His coming
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Not eagles rather buzzards. Don't be with the buzzards, Christ is coming to clean house, Amen
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
What is the product of a marriage? A child of course. Woe to those that have partaken in the marriage with satan. It has nothing to do with pregnant women or literal parents. To those with ears that hear.
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Wait a minute, Christ is telling us to pray and warns us there is going to be a false gathering and why. Because of a great tribulation!
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Why would He give us this warning if we weren't here?
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
If the elect were raptured away then why shortened the days? He also is giving us a good example of how powerful satans lies will be.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Why not? Because its satan himself!
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
False Christs? Hes referring to satan and his legions of fallen angels. False prophets? Well, hate to say it but some of those false prophets might consist of unwittingly pre-tribers.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Why? They are probably deceived themselves and want you to beleive the same lie.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
AH all glory to God, then here arrives our true husband with the brightness of His coming
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Not eagles rather buzzards. Don't be with the buzzards, Christ is coming to clean house, Amen
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O
oopsies
Guest
Then you are saying that one can lose their salvation. I believe in OSAS. So sorry, I'm not buying your interpretation of the verses or whatever you like to call it NO MATTER HOW LONG YOUR POSTS ARE. In fact, I'm tired of having your kind giving me the holier than thou speech. I didn't even read the entire post. I just skimmed it to the end. Is this the result you are trying to obtain? If so, you've got it. Congrats.
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miktre
Guest
I'm sorry if you feel I'm giving you the holier than thou speech. That is the furthest thing from my mind. I have enjoyed many of your posts and probably will continue to. I'm not sure why my post stirred you so, but it was not the intention. My post was a bit long out of necessity, not to overwhelm the reader with empty words to win an argument.Then you are saying that one can lose their salvation. I believe in OSAS. So sorry, I'm not buying your interpretation of the verses or whatever you like to call it NO MATTER HOW LONG YOUR POSTS ARE. In fact, I'm tired of having your kind giving me the holier than thou speech. I didn't even read the entire post. I just skimmed it to the end. Is this the result you are trying to obtain? If so, you've got it. Congrats.
There is only one way for someone to lose their salvation and that is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Matthew 12:31-32
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[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT] [FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]32 "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the {age} to come.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Luke 12:10 [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]10 "And everyone who will speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]Mark 3:28-30
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[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT] [FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]28 "Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--[/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica] [/FONT][FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]30 because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit."[/FONT]
If you utter the words that the Spirit in Christ is unclean you shall surely lose your salvation.
What happened here? They claimed Christ had a unclean spirit of satan. Whats going to happen in the tribulation? They will claim satan has the spirit of God! Do you think not that satan will warn the entire world of Christ's coming but call Him a devil with an unclean spirit? Satan's whole thing is to try to take as many as possible to the same doom as him. Some will be so lovey dovey with satan theres no way anything can change their minds. They will find it unbelievable.
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greatkraw
Guest
You guys really want to muddy the water.
A text without a context is a pretext.
It is important for every verse to understand who it is being said too and when.
The categories are......
1 Human beings before Abraham
2 Israel before the Messiah
3 Israel while Christ was offering the kingdom.
4 The disciples after Christ withdrew the offer of the kingdom.
5 Israel after the ascension while the kingdom was being offered a second time.
6 The church after God postponed the offer to Israel for the duration of the church age.
This list may not be complete. There are sub categories to all of these.
Beware of applying what is spoken to one group and applying it to the Church.
Historically the categories of believers are.
1 Pre flood
2 Flood to Abraham
3 Jews/Israelites from Abraham to Messiah
4 Gentiles from Abraham to Messiah
5 Church in Church age
6 Tribulation Martyrs
7 Tribulation Jews
8 Millennial Jews
9 Millenial Gentiles
(once again, list may not be comprehensive)
Note the Church is only a subset of all these so you must first ask if any verse quoted applies specifically to the Church
People mess up the application of the scriptures unless they clearly define the doctrines of....
God, Holy Spirit, Christ, Israel, Church, Soterilogy, Eschatology
.....to name a few
A text without a context is a pretext.
It is important for every verse to understand who it is being said too and when.
The categories are......
1 Human beings before Abraham
2 Israel before the Messiah
3 Israel while Christ was offering the kingdom.
4 The disciples after Christ withdrew the offer of the kingdom.
5 Israel after the ascension while the kingdom was being offered a second time.
6 The church after God postponed the offer to Israel for the duration of the church age.
This list may not be complete. There are sub categories to all of these.
Beware of applying what is spoken to one group and applying it to the Church.
Historically the categories of believers are.
1 Pre flood
2 Flood to Abraham
3 Jews/Israelites from Abraham to Messiah
4 Gentiles from Abraham to Messiah
5 Church in Church age
6 Tribulation Martyrs
7 Tribulation Jews
8 Millennial Jews
9 Millenial Gentiles
(once again, list may not be comprehensive)
Note the Church is only a subset of all these so you must first ask if any verse quoted applies specifically to the Church
People mess up the application of the scriptures unless they clearly define the doctrines of....
God, Holy Spirit, Christ, Israel, Church, Soterilogy, Eschatology
.....to name a few