RAPTURE

[DavidTree]

Hello, my dearly beloved brother DavidTree.


Post #130.


No problem.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not have any Saints raptured BEFORE the Resurrection.

Revelation chapter 19 does not have any raptured Saints since the Resurrection does not take place until the Lord's Return.

The First Resurrection BEFORE the rapture occurs in Revelation chapter 20.

 

[oyster67]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not have any Saints raptured BEFORE the Resurrection.

The Rapture is the Resurrection. It is the First Resurrection.

Revelation chapter 19 does not have any raptured Saints since the Resurrection does not take place until the Lord's Return.

The First Resurrection takes place 7 years before the Lord's return. The Lord does not return to Earth until the end of Rev 19. The robes and wedding happen before we return to Earth.

The First Resurrection BEFORE the rapture occurs in Revelation chapter 20.

Your post-trib thingy has you doing backflips.

 

[DavidTree]

The Rapture is the Resurrection. It is the First Resurrection.


The First Resurrection takes place 7 years before the Lord's return. The Lord does not return to Earth until the end of Rev 19. The robes and wedding happen before we return to Earth.


Your post-trib thingy has you doing backflips.

The rapture is not the Resurrection but it comes after the dead in Christ are resurrected.

Please read again 1 Thessalonians whereby the "dead in Christ rise first....AFTER that we who are alive and remain at His Coming are then raptured UP."

The rapture cannot and will not take place until the "dead in Christ RISE from the graves".

Placing the rapture before the Resurrection is calling God a liar.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The Bible is for everyone. Not all will be ready.

The Revelation Prophecies are to warn everyone. The whole Bible is for everyone. This is like asking why the Bible mentions hell if the Church is not going there.

Ermmm..........


1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;


22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

God has not appointed us to wrath. Not in hell and not in the 7-year Tribulation where His wrath is poured out on the enemy.

God has not appointed us to wrath (Orge) That is why we are not damned.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us for wrath (orgēn | ὀργήν | acc sg fem), but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath (orgē | ὀργή | nom sg fem) of God remains on him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath (orgēs | ὀργῆς | gen sg fem).


Tribulation is not God's wrath. Please pay attenthion to The Word rather than a pretrib philosophy.
thlipsis is the word that Jesus used for the greatest tribulation.


1 Thessalonians 3:3 so that no one would be moved by these afflictions (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem). For you yourselves
know that we were destined for this.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great suffering (thlipsis | θλῖψις | nom sg fem), such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, and will never be again.

2 Thessalonians 1:4 so that we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all the persecutions
and afflictions (thlipsesin | θλίψεσιν | dat pl fem) that you are enduring.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 For it is a righteous thing for God to repay with affliction (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem) those who afflict you,


We are not appt. to WRATH
There isn't a verse that says we will not have TRIBULATION.


John 16:33 I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem), but take courage, I have conquered the world.”

 

[oyster67]

There isn't a verse that says we will not have TRIBULATION.

Agree. Many Christians are having tribulation in the world right now, just like your verse says...

John 16:33 I have told you these things so that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation (thlipsin | θλῖψιν | acc sg fem), but take courage, I have conquered the world.”

This is speaking to the present time. We will be saved from the future time of God's Wrath and Judgement upon the Earth.

 

[ZNP]

24 Signs of the end of the Age

No special order. This is an off the top of my head list.

1. 2017 Revelation 12 sign in the heavens at the time of the Feast of Trumpets, the woman crowned with 12 stars travailing to give birth to the Manchild. The signs are to wake people up and alert them that the end of the age is at hand. This sign will not return for such a long period of time that you know it has to be pointing to right now.

2. The pandemic in 2020. According to Joel there will be a worldwide pandemic that shuts down the world's economy because God is proclaiming a sabbath for people to fast and pray. He says that this pandemic is a sign that the day of the Lord is at hand.

3. We saw two cows in 2015, a black one with a beautiful 7 and a red one with the simplest 7, both were born with this number on their forehead. Both were born in the US. This took place right before the feast of trumpets. It was seen as being prophetic that the 7 years starting at that time would be years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine. Based on that prophecy the famine began in September of 2022 and we are seeing that. Since one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse is famine we expect the apocalypse to begin shortly.

4. 5 Red heifers arrived in Israel on September 15th, they went through ten days of quarantine and so officially arrived on the 25th of September 2022 which was the feast of trumpets. Many see this as the beginning of the 70th week in Daniel, the last seven years of this age. The Hebrew term for week is "shemitah" and it is a specific reference to a seven year period where the seventh year is a sabbath year. This feast of trumpets begins a new shemitah, therefore if this is not the 70th shemitah you have to wait another 7 years. That would destroy all 24 of the signs I am providing here. Therefore many believe that this will be the 70th Shemitah.

5. There is a prophecy from a Jewish rabbi that when the sea of Galilee is full the Messiah will return. This is the first time since that prophecy that the sea of Galilee is full and already many rabbis are proclaiming that they are talking to the "messiah". This could be the false prophet who many interpret to come out of Israel, or it could be the two witnesses that appear during the tribulation. Either way, another big sigh.

6. The US moved the embassy to Jerusalem in 2017. This confirmed that 1967 and 1917 were also jubilee years. It also refers to a prophesy from a Jewish rabbi hundreds of years earlier which said that Ottoman empire would give up Israel in the jubilee in 1917, that the next jubilee Jerusalem would return to Israel and that the next jubilee after that would be the end of the age.

7. The Abraham accords where several countries made peace with Israel saying they could rebuild their temple is a major sign referred to in Daniel.

8. The 120th jubilee of human history was 2017. There is a prophecy that it takes 6,000 years (6 days) to make men and that the seventh day is the day of rest with the millennial reign.

9. The war in Ukraine is fulfilling the prophecy in Ezekiel 38. A rabbi prophesied years ago that when the war in Ukraine starts the Messiah would appear (false prophet?)

10. Earthquakes have increased 1,000% since the 1950s.

11. Stolen election and the stop the steal rallies along with the weaponization of the DOJ and FBI indicates we have an internal coup just as in the days of Esther. Steve Bannon is clearly a modern day Mordecai.

12. The US has become Sodom and Gomorrah, they rebel against God's word and they are proud of that.

13. The apostasy of the church "has to come first". Many churches have left the word of God, they ignore verses in the Bible, they explain away other verses. It is no longer "Jesus is Lord" in the church but rather "their church, their rules".

14. BLM protests were the sign of Jonah given to this evil and adulterous age. Jonah protested in the streets of Nineveh for 40 days over their abuses as a slave holding city. Jonah was spit out on the beach after traveling across the ocean in the belly of a beast just as the slaves brought from Africa were.

15. 911 was a harbinger of God's judgment on this nation. We were given 19 years to repent. Instead we claimed we would build back better, ignoring God's warning and 19 years later the pandemic hit.

16. Knowledge has increased exponentially with smart phones, AI and the internet.

17. People are flying all over the earth (Daniel said they would run to and fro).

18. The Pope has just begun something called Chrislam where all the monotheistic religions unite, excluding evangelical Christians and ultimately leading to them persecuting the church.

19. They are using RFID chips in people's hands to buy and sell along with requiring social credit scores and vaccine passports. It is very clear that a digital currency as the mark of the beast will be implemented shortly.

20. Many are saying they are the anointed of God (ie the Christ) and are deceiving many on Youtube and the internet.

21. The entire world is watching what is happening and is effected by what happens. Never before in human history has that been true to this extent. TV's did not become common until after WWII. Radio just came out at the time of WWI.

22. The gospel is preached worldwide on the internet.

23. Lawlessness is increasing. We see things happening everyday that are stunning concerning how lawless they are.

24. The church will be hated. It is so obvious where a pastor who sings hymns outside an abortion clinic is arrested by a swat team at his house while people who fire bomb churches are ignored.

 

[Angela53510]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 is clearly a rapture event and is clearly not about us returning back to Earth with Him at His Second Coming.
Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”
It is obvious that each person only needs to be resurrected once.

This is where not knowing Koine Greek messes up your theology. In fact:

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess 4:17

The key issues, are:

1. that heaven is not mentioned in the verse! ἀέρα or "air" is the air around us. Ouranos is heaven, and does not appear in this verse! So, we are not going to heaven with Jesus.

2. "secret" is not found in this verse. There can be no "secret." In fact, elsewhere it says of the Second Coming of Jesus:

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen." Rev 1:7

This is the Second Coming talked about in 1 Thess 4:17. Every eye will see him! Nothing secret at all!

3. ἀπάντησιν. This word means "to meet" as your translation correctly says. However, the translation neglects to mention the rest of the meaning. Cleon Roger's Jr & Cleon Rodgers III scholarly book, "The
New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament," (which we used in Baptist seminary), gives the complete definition. It refers to the return of a conquering hero. The people go out to meet the victor and accompany him back to their city. This word is found only in 3 places on the NT. In Acts 28:15, it refers to the people going out "to meet" Paul, and then return with him to the Rome.

In 1 Thess 4:17, it refers to Christians meeting Jesus in the air around us, and then returning to earth for Judgement Day. Heaven is not where we go, apantesin means the people "meet and return" to earth with Jesus. Paul used that word on purpose, just as Luke did in Acts 28:15.

4. Finally this supposed rapture! Only one Bible contains a transliteration of "harpazo" into rapture and that is Jerome's Latin Bible, translated in the 4th century AD. So 400 years after Christ, and Jerome did not know Koine Greek well, as it was starting to die out. Harpazo means "to snatch, grab!" This refers to the suddenness of the Second Coming! Jerome transliterated, not translated harpazo to sound like a similar Latin word. That being rapiere, which means "abduct" according to one source. Will Jesus abduct us? Not likely. But he will suddenly grab us, so we can meet him in the air.

Further, hermeneutics or Bible interpretation requires we do not make a major doctrine out of one verse in the Bible. There must be many references, for anything to become a pivotal doctrine, which rapture does not have. In fact, the word "Rapture" does not appear in the Bible at all, but the Second Coming does!

1 Thess 4:17 is a reference to Jesus Christ's Second Coming! We are waiting for Jesus to return, not a nonsensical "secret rapture to heaven." Not one of those words is present in 1 Thess 4:17, in Koine Greek or English!

 

[Angela53510]

No. The Rapture is not the Second Coming. We go up. We are raptured up.


No. We return to Earth once, at the Second Coming.

How did you think pre-trib worked?

Please post the verse that says, we "go up!" It certainly is NOT found in Koine Greek in 1 Thess. 4:17

 

[Angela53510]

24 Signs of the end of the Age

No special order. This is an off the top of my head list.

1. 2017 Revelation 12 sign in the heavens at the time of the Feast of Trumpets, the woman crowned with 12 stars travailing to give birth to the Manchild. The signs are to wake people up and alert them that the end of the age is at hand. This sign will not return for such a long period of time that you know it has to be pointing to right now.

2. The pandemic in 2020. According to Joel there will be a worldwide pandemic that shuts down the world's economy because God is proclaiming a sabbath for people to fast and pray. He says that this pandemic is a sign that the day of the Lord is at hand.

3. We saw two cows in 2015, a black one with a beautiful 7 and a red one with the simplest 7, both were born with this number on their forehead. Both were born in the US. This took place right before the feast of trumpets. It was seen as being prophetic that the 7 years starting at that time would be years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine. Based on that prophecy the famine began in September of 2022 and we are seeing that. Since one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse is famine we expect the apocalypse to begin shortly.

4. 5 Red heifers arrived in Israel on September 15th, they went through ten days of quarantine and so officially arrived on the 25th of September 2022 which was the feast of trumpets. Many see this as the beginning of the 70th week in Daniel, the last seven years of this age. The Hebrew term for week is "shemitah" and it is a specific reference to a seven year period where the seventh year is a sabbath year. This feast of trumpets begins a new shemitah, therefore if this is not the 70th shemitah you have to wait another 7 years. That would destroy all 24 of the signs I am providing here. Therefore many believe that this will be the 70th Shemitah.

5. There is a prophecy from a Jewish rabbi that when the sea of Galilee is full the Messiah will return. This is the first time since that prophecy that the sea of Galilee is full and already many rabbis are proclaiming that they are talking to the "messiah". This could be the false prophet who many interpret to come out of Israel, or it could be the two witnesses that appear during the tribulation. Either way, another big sigh.

6. The US moved the embassy to Jerusalem in 2017. This confirmed that 1967 and 1917 were also jubilee years. It also refers to a prophesy from a Jewish rabbi hundreds of years earlier which said that Ottoman empire would give up Israel in the jubilee in 1917, that the next jubilee Jerusalem would return to Israel and that the next jubilee after that would be the end of the age.

7. The Abraham accords where several countries made peace with Israel saying they could rebuild their temple is a major sign referred to in Daniel.

8. The 120th jubilee of human history was 2017. There is a prophecy that it takes 6,000 years (6 days) to make men and that the seventh day is the day of rest with the millennial reign.

9. The war in Ukraine is fulfilling the prophecy in Ezekiel 38. A rabbi prophesied years ago that when the war in Ukraine starts the Messiah would appear (false prophet?)

10. Earthquakes have increased 1,000% since the 1950s.

11. Stolen election and the stop the steal rallies along with the weaponization of the DOJ and FBI indicates we have an internal coup just as in the days of Esther. Steve Bannon is clearly a modern day Mordecai.

12. The US has become Sodom and Gomorrah, they rebel against God's word and they are proud of that.

13. The apostasy of the church "has to come first". Many churches have left the word of God, they ignore verses in the Bible, they explain away other verses. It is no longer "Jesus is Lord" in the church but rather "their church, their rules".

14. BLM protests were the sign of Jonah given to this evil and adulterous age. Jonah protested in the streets of Nineveh for 40 days over their abuses as a slave holding city. Jonah was spit out on the beach after traveling across the ocean in the belly of a beast just as the slaves brought from Africa were.

15. 911 was a harbinger of God's judgment on this nation. We were given 19 years to repent. Instead we claimed we would build back better, ignoring God's warning and 19 years later the pandemic hit.

16. Knowledge has increased exponentially with smart phones, AI and the internet.

17. People are flying all over the earth (Daniel said they would run to and fro).

18. The Pope has just begun something called Chrislam where all the monotheistic religions unite, excluding evangelical Christians and ultimately leading to them persecuting the church.

19. They are using RFID chips in people's hands to buy and sell along with requiring social credit scores and vaccine passports. It is very clear that a digital currency as the mark of the beast will be implemented shortly.

20. Many are saying they are the anointed of God (ie the Christ) and are deceiving many on Youtube and the internet.

21. The entire world is watching what is happening and is effected by what happens. Never before in human history has that been true to this extent. TV's did not become common until after WWII. Radio just came out at the time of WWI.

22. The gospel is preached worldwide on the internet.

23. Lawlessness is increasing. We see things happening everyday that are stunning concerning how lawless they are.

24. The church will be hated. It is so obvious where a pastor who sings hymns outside an abortion clinic is arrested by a swat team at his house while people who fire bomb churches are ignored.

So did you get this from Hal Lindsay's book. "The Late, Great Planet Earth" or "The Left Behind" series? It would have been more interesting had you posted the verses that claim each these things. Revelation is Apocalyptic Literature, by the way! It is fulfilled symbolically!

 

[ZNP]

So did you get this from Hal Lindsay's book. "The Late, Great Planet Earth" or "The Left Behind" series? It would have been more interesting had you posted the verses that claim each these things. Revelation is Apocalyptic Literature, by the way! It is fulfilled symbolically!

No, I have observed these myself.

 

[ZNP]

So did you get this from Hal Lindsay's book. "The Late, Great Planet Earth" or "The Left Behind" series?

The Late Great Planet Earth was published 1970, 17 of these signs have occurred since 2000 with about 13 taking place since 2015. The left Behind books were published from 1995 to 2007.

 

[oyster67]

Please post the verse that says, we "go up!"

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

 

[ZNP]

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This verse is interesting because it describes the rapture taking place halfway between heaven and earth. The last day of summer according to ancient civilizations like the Celts and the Germans is October 30, that is when the harvest is over. It is considered halfway between the equinox and the solstice.

From the Equinox to the solstice the Sun is coming down in the sky and I suppose October 30th is halfway.

As a result October 31 through Nov 2 is a three day holiday celebrating "all souls" and all the dead. The reason people wore masks was they thought that October 31 was when the veil between the spiritual and physical realms was the thinnest and so they didn't want evil spirits to recognize them. What I find interesting about that is after the rapture the restrainer steps aside and demons and fallen angels will come to earth. Some have described 3 days of darkness that can be felt.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

First resurrection is Jesus, not the rapture. When someone becomes saved that person has been raised from the dead in their soul existence.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

 

[ZNP]

First resurrection is Jesus, not the rapture. When someone becomes saved that person has been raised from the dead in their soul existence.

John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Yes and many argue (correctly) that the rapture of the firstfruits must take place first and that the firstfruits are Jewish (also true). However, they fail to realize this rapture took place at the time of Jesus Resurrection.

 

[oyster67]

After the Marriage of Jesus to His Bride (the Church). He will return with her to Earth at the Second Coming.

Not complicated at all. No need to run to the Greek. Just believe what the Bible says.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Yes and many argue (correctly) that the rapture of the firstfruits must take place first and that the firstfruits are Jewish (also true). However, they fail to realize this rapture took place at the time of Jesus Resurrection.

Some saints received their spiritual bodies when Jesus conquered death. But the main feature rapture that the unsaved will witness will be at the end of the world.

Revelation 11:12
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Those claiming the saints are not raptured to heaven. God says differently above.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Agree. Many Christians are having tribulation in the world right now, just like your verse says...

This is speaking to the present time. We will be saved from the future time of God's Wrath and Judgement upon the Earth.

I think Jesus explained now & then quite well in Matt 24

6 And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pains.

We don't get the birth without the birthpains. He was clearly talking about a latter time, after the gospel has gone out to all nations.
After a falling away, betraying each other, false prophets & lawlessness.

9 “Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 And at that time many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will rise up and mislead many people. 12 And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will become cold.

13 But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


He goes on speaking of specific signs and a specific time.

15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place—let the reader understand—

21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again

22 And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


25 Behold, I have told you in advance. !!!!

Nothing is secret...... the visible second coming is at hand. Everyone sees him. This isn't something only "the church"
or "the bride" witnesses.

27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Then the rapture

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[oyster67]

I think Jesus explained now & then quite well in Matt 24

6 And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pains.

We don't get the birth without the birthpains. He was clearly talking about a latter time, after the gospel has gone out to all nations.
After a falling away, betraying each other, false prophets & lawlessness.

9 “Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 And at that time many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will rise up and mislead many people. 12 And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will become cold.

13 But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


He goes on speaking of specific signs and a specific time.

15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place—let the reader understand—

21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again

22 And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


25 Behold, I have told you in advance. !!!!

Nothing is secret...... the visible second coming is at hand. Everyone sees him. This isn't something only "the church"
or "the bride" witnesses.

27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Then the rapture

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I agree with all you say about the Trib. The vast majority of the Jews will go through it. God addresses them as well as the Church. I realize that very little is said about pre-trib rapture of the alive-at-the-time Church. It will only apply to a few (and not the JWs. ) As you know, most of the saint's souls are already there in Heaven.

I do appreciate all the time you have put into your posts. You seem very sincere. Please do not let the imagined prospect of getting your head chopped off in the trib detract from your peace and joy at the present time. I will be praying for you. I will keep reading your posts, but everything still looks like Pre-T to me. God bless you, sister Lucy-P.