Rapture

[Blain]

The great apocalyse is NOT God's wrath. It's satan's wrath against us. God's people will face that.

I think the reason why God allowed the holocaust to happen during WW2 is to show us a preview of what will happen to his spiritual children/people. Like with the Jews, satan is going to try to kill off as many of God's people either by execution or by making them break faith and take his mark. But the fact that Jews have survived AND had their nation of Israel restored is proof that satan's efforts to completely annihilate us will fail in the last days too.

I don't go much by dreams either my own or other's. Just stick with what the Bible says and it will become plain what the scripture say when pre-trib rapture doesn't happen and you're still here for the great apocalyse. Just don't panic - cling close to Jesus who will help you to endure it all to the end.


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ok lets go by what the scriptures say then again I find this one to be interesting 1 Thessalonians 1:10 - and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The point is not by whose wrath we are to be saved from it is the fact that we are to be saved from it to begin with. not to mention the parable of the ten virgins if you didn't know it is actually an anaology of the wedding and how the wedding works with the jews is that the groom comes unannounced like a thief in the night to collect his bride who waits eagerly and with graoning the father is the one who decidrs when the groom is allowed to pick up the bridde which Jesus even said not even he knew when he would be coming.

this is all in scripture and if the post trib was true then his coming would not fit into the order of time lines that being the feasts the prophetic ordained days which Jesus came and fulfilled four there are only three left to fulfill
I do agree however that the holocaust was a precurser of what is to come and that it is satans wrath upon the earth not God's at least part of it is as the bowls or viles spoken of in revelation are all sent by God

But for the discussion sake can you show me where in scripture it says that the rapture is going to be post trib?

 

[Citizen]

Does one's belief in the timing of rapture (pre tribulation, during tribulation, etc) affect one's salvation?

Can eschatology beliefs condemn believers? No. The Bible is clear we're saved through God-given faith in Christ, not eschatology.

Can eschatology views have an affect on salvation down the road? Possibly. What happens when a believer is facing the ultimate persecution and pre-trib turns out to be false? They can potentially lose faith in God and reject Him because they were absolutely assured they'd be floating to heaven instead of facing torture and death. That's my concern for pre-trib followers.

I'd rather be prepared for the worst than be caught out unprepared with potentially disastrous results.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

ok lets go by what the scriptures say then again I find this one to be interesting 1 Thessalonians 1:10 - and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

The point is not by whose wrath we are to be saved from it is the fact that we are to be saved from it to begin with. not to mention the parable of the ten virgins if you didn't know it is actually an anaology of the wedding and how the wedding works with the jews is that the groom comes unannounced like a thief in the night to collect his bride who waits eagerly and with graoning the father is the one who decidrs when the groom is allowed to pick up the bridde which Jesus even said not even he knew when he would be coming.

this is all in scripture and if the post trib was true then his coming would not fit into the order of time lines that being the feasts the prophetic ordained days which Jesus came and fulfilled four there are only three left to fulfill
I do agree however that the holocaust was a precurser of what is to come and that it is satans wrath upon the earth not God's at least part of it is as the bowls or viles spoken of in revelation are all sent by God

But for the discussion sake can you show me where in scripture it says that the rapture is going to be post trib?

This has been debated over and over that you can just do a search on it here or on the internet. The time is drawing nearer that now is just a waste of time to go over all this when even pre-tribbers know what verses that post-tribbers point to. We're at the point that we can't waste time debating this any longer.

God tells me don't bother debating this - everyone needs to be warned and encouraged to practice enduring with the Lord for the great apocalypse because there is no pre-trib rapture. We're all going to be there for that.


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[DeepSeeker]

As for The Book Of Revelation; and Mth.24, which speaks of Its contents.
That chapter of Mathew sue makes it clear that The Book Of Revelation fits Those verses.
Yet Today, people keep desiring to take what was written To Isreal, and for Isreal, and apply It to, Today!

The apostle Paul was given the job of preaching TO THE GENTILES; not, THE JEWS. Why then do people tend to ignore This Fact? Why do they keep trying to force that which was for Isreal only into Today, This Age?

If you want It, then you must take what goes with It! No thanks!
Those that do This are saying that They too, are Jews of That Age.

 

[DeepSeeker]

As for The Book Of Revelation; and Mth.24, which speaks of Its contents.
That chapter of Mathew sue makes it clear that The Book Of Revelation fits Those verses.
Yet Today, people keep desiring to take what was written To Isreal, and for Isreal, and apply It to, Today!

The apostle Paul was given the job of preaching TO THE GENTILES; not, THE JEWS. Why then do people tend to ignore This Fact? Why do they keep trying to force that which was for Isreal only into Today, This Age?

If you want It, then you must take what goes with It! No thanks!
Those that do This are saying that They too, are Jews of That Age.

 

[Blade]

The bible speaks of an Apostasy coming, where Christians forsake Christ for a false christ/false god. Pretribs literally believe the Apostasy is the rapture (a physical departure rather than a religious departure) so they want to take part in that "departure". So yes, one's stance on the rapture timing could affect salvation.

It's like someone believing the lake of fire is actually just a nice vacation in a warm tropical island.

Along time ago in the bible the word used was "departure". That word can me falling away and can also mean departure. Some tend not to share this pre-trib had done it post-trib has done it so.

To the OP your looking waiting for Christ to come in the air.. your doing exactly what He said. We were not promised tomorrow so I watch and am ready now. Now is when He will come I will never miss Him. If one is not watching does not believe and He comes dies He take them against their will? Some say all will go some say few will go it does seem no one knows So I put my trust my faith in this moment He gave me..to always be thinking of Him.. and my life my walk.. oh AWESOME! Praise GOD GLORY TO JESUS. Has no effect on my salvation.

 

[Blain]

This has been debated over and over that you can just do a search on it here or on the internet. The time is drawing nearer that now is just a waste of time to go over all this when even pre-tribbers know what verses that post-tribbers point to. We're at the point that we can't waste time debating this any longer.

God tells me don't bother debating this - everyone needs to be warned and encouraged to practice enduring with the Lord for the great apocalypse because there is no pre-trib rapture. We're all going to be there for that.


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It is not an issue if you do not wish to discuss this but why be in this thrrad if you don't wish to do so? God would not say don't debate this if the truth was at stake here it sounds more like you just don't have an answer

 

[Leastofall]

According to the parable we are to earnestly in expectation look forward to the rapture. So yes eschatology can make a difference in one's walk.
The debate over the issue of pre and mid or even post trib or even if it's true is as to one's personal view and understanding.
I personally believe it is true and am a pre trib believer.
I can and will explain my beliefs but will not debate over the issues. My belief in this also has changed my view point on the book of revelation.
I think it's better to be prepared and aware rather than proving my personal view.

 

[Blain]

According to the parable we are to earnestly in expectation look forward to the rapture. So yes eschatology can make a difference in one's walk.
The debate over the issue of pre and mid or even post trib or even if it's true is as to one's personal view and understanding.
I personally believe it is true and am a pre trib believer.
I can and will explain my beliefs but will not debate over the issues. My belief in this also has changed my view point on the book of revelation.
I think it's better to be prepared and aware rather than proving my personal view.

I believe you are correct in your post here we are to earnestly and eagerly wait for the rapture and yes depending on ones view and understanding it can be pre mid or post

me personally I am a pre/prewrath believer I find both of these views to make the most sense and there are plenty of verses that speak of a sudden coming of Jesus which aligns with how the rapture will happen but very few if any of a post or mid trib one

 

[Psalm1]

Pre-trib doesn't even have to be debated - it isn't going to happen. We will all still be here when the antichrist is revealed and the great apocalypse here. So do what Jesus tells His people and endure (with Him) to the end.


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That verse you referenced says "revealed".
The AC revealed, then the rapture.

Thank you for reminding me.
Yes he is revealed pretrib as your verse indicates and the rapture is pretrib as Jesus declared twice.

The bible does not teach anything but a pretrib rapture.
Postribbers use conjecture.
Do your own study. Notice a postribber can not make a case for what he theories.
Pretrib rapture is easily defended.

Post a verse. Should be real easy for a postrib rapture verse that voids the 10 or so pretrib rapture verses.
Show me your one verse that voids all the pretrib rapture verses.
One thing no postribber will do....meet me at the pretrib rapture rapture verses and show me how Jesus was wrong.

 

[Psalm1]

They are in the Ark [[before]] it began raining \ [[out of Sodom]] before the LORD rains brimstone. That is pre-wrath all day long.

Yes and pretrib.
Both.
Jesus declared the setting pretrib.
* Commerce
* Everyday life
* Normal life.
* Planning for the future.
* And in Acts one " like manner"
Only a pretrib rapture fits.
NOTHING else fits.

Prewrath postrib is OPPOSITE Jesus declaration.
All rapture verses are pretrib.
Easily defended with Jesus words.
Postrib rapture is a doctrine of omission.

 

[Psalm1]

This has been debated over and over that you can just do a search on it here or on the internet. The time is drawing nearer that now is just a waste of time to go over all this when even pre-tribbers know what verses that post-tribbers point to. We're at the point that we can't waste time debating this any longer.

God tells me don't bother debating this - everyone needs to be warned and encouraged to practice enduring with the Lord for the great apocalypse because there is no pre-trib rapture. We're all going to be there for that.


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This is where the bible comes in.
You are simply theorizing and guessing.

The bible says the AC IS given power to overcome the saints.
The Bible says every man woman and child on the planet takes the mark whose names are not in the book.
The bible says that the AC overcomes the saints
The Bible says the saints overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death. So it's telling you right there in black and white that they are martyred.
The Bible says that early on in the tribulation, there is an inumerable number of martyrs that came out of the tribulation.
We obviously see this is all the left behind believers that got martyred and are now in heaven. I think anybody can see this.
SO THERE IS NO postrib rapture.
All believers are killed.
This all goes to the verse " the times of tge Gentiles completed.
The 7yr trib is daniels 70th week.
it is JACOBS TROUBLE..ISRAELS TROUBLE..
Postribs have no handle...no knowledge of ANY of this.

I believe 100% the root of all the misunderstanding against pretrib rapture believers, is, in the fact that they don't understand the 2 covenants. They don't understand Romans 11, the Jews grafted back in.
they don't understand the 144000 which are ethnic Jews.
They dont understand first fruits.
They don't see the tie between first fruits and main harvest.
They don't understand that if you have first fruits, then you have main harvest. And so when they read revelation, chapter fourteen, they don't know what in the world is going on with any of that.

This is huge.
This is extremely important and you're not going to understand end times if you do not understand those dynamics........

 

[lrs68]

Yes and pretrib.
Both.
Jesus declared the setting pretrib.
* Commerce
* Everyday life
* Normal life.
* Planning for the future.
* And in Acts one " like manner"
Only a pretrib rapture fits.
NOTHING else fits.

Prewrath postrib is OPPOSITE Jesus declaration.
All rapture verses are pretrib.
Easily defended with Jesus words.
Postrib rapture is a doctrine of omission.

If it was easy to defend with Jesus words you would have used His words and not your own. He does indeed present pre-wrath with as IN THE DAYS of....Noah and Lot and Elijah. IN THE DAYS OF literally show us the days right BEFORE WRATH. Pre-Wrath is definitely what Jesus preached!

 

[tablet123]

Does one's belief in the timing of rapture (pre tribulation, during tribulation, etc) affect one's salvation?

Concerning the resurrection it happens at the end of a 7 years period that God gives the world to have their way and go against the truth and causes all people that do not love Him to follow the antichrist and when they do He will end sin on earth.

Since God is allowing the world 7 years to go against the truth the saints will remain on earth for if not how did the world go against the truth.

Paul said let no person deceive you by any means for the resurrection will not happen until the man of sin claims to be God which happens in the middle of the 7 years period.

And then he makes war against the saints and prevails against them.

And they are given in to his hands for three and one half years.

And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all things are finished.

Then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father and put down all authority, rule, and power.

Once the resurrection happens it is the end so if it is pre-7 years, or mid-resurrection, why does the world continue on.

When the Bible says the beast makes war with the saints they think they are tribulation saints and the resurrection happened before that.

But the Bible says there is only 2 resurrections, 1 of the saints and 1 of the dead later.

If it is pre or mid there would be no tribulation saints.

The resurrection will take all saints to be with Jesus not leave some on earth.

The Bible says when the LORD comes to defeat the world all the saints are with Him.

So if it is pre or mid why is there saints on earth and that is because the resurrection has not happened yet.

The resurrection happens at the end of the 7 years period which is the end and Jesus puts down the world.

Does it matter if we preach pre or trib.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

When the resurrection does not happen pre or mid it will overthrow the faith of some people that believed that believing it is not true and they will embrace the world and their ways.

Will they be accountable for teaching pre or mid which that teaching caused souls to be lost.

And for people that believe all you need is faith and you are saved and cannot fall.

How did that false teaching overthrow their faith and how did they depart from the faith.

And for people that would say they did not have faith then why would the Bible say their faith was overthrown and they departed from the faith.

They had faith but they ended up not being saved.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

It is not an issue if you do not wish to discuss this but why be in this thrrad if you don't wish to do so? God would not say don't debate this if the truth was at stake here it sounds more like you just don't have an answer

The timing of the rapture has been debated to death that continuing it is just repeating it over and over again. It is a waste of time and a distraction from getting ready to endure. If people really don't know, they can just look at the ton of debate threads on the subject here and everywhere else.

Trying to shame me into entering debate with you isn't going to work. It's just a waste of time and effort. If you want to dig your head in the sand and continue to deceive yourself about a false pre-trib rapture, by all means continue to so. I've done my job of warning you. My conscience is clear!


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[Blain]

The timing of the rapture has been debated to death that continuing it is just repeating it over and over again. It is a waste of time and a distraction from getting ready to endure. If people really don't know, they can just look at the ton of debate threads on the subject here and everywhere else.

Trying to shame me into entering debate with you isn't going to work. It's just a waste of time and effort. If you want to dig your head in the sand and continue to deceive yourself about a false pre-trib rapture, by all means continue to so. I've done my job of warning you. My conscience is clear!


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Then why be in this thread if you do not wish to debate it? true enough it is a topic that has been continuiously debated over and over but you call the pretrib a false doctrine but why is it a false doctrine and how can you prove it? you cannot make a claim like that and not back it up in some way. I was not trying to shame you into debating if that is how it came across then I apologize

The thing is debates like this do have a purpose it is not all just sensless arguing some of us want to get to the bottom of it the truth some of us are willing to change our views albiet very few perhaps

personally I am trying to connect the fots aand debates like this help me to do so I asked for scripture that proves it is post trib because I am trying to connect the dots here it isn't just the rapture that needs to be considered you have the ezekiel war to take into account the thousand year reighn of Christ the new heaven and new eerth ect. there are many things that are connected to the rapture and the timingg of it

Not to mention the wedding of the lamb when is that for instance?

I don't ask you debate simply to debate but to help me understand your point of view so I can better connect the dots

 

[Psalm1]

If it was easy to defend with Jesus words you would have used His words and not your own. He does indeed present pre-wrath with as IN THE DAYS of....Noah and Lot and Elijah. IN THE DAYS OF literally show us the days right BEFORE WRATH. Pre-Wrath is definitely what Jesus preached!

You are saying Noah is a "postrib /prewrath" dynamic/ analogy?

If that is the case, then we need the. Commerce, normal life , everyday life, future planning, AS SAID BY JESUS, ( that you claim he didn't say), to be Jesus's error????
Your scenario is way way off.
There was no such postrib dynamic to Noah.
Plain bizarre that you twist the very words of Jesus.

 

[Psalm1]

The timing of the rapture has been debated to death that continuing it is just repeating it over and over again. It is a waste of time and a distraction from getting ready to endure. If people really don't know, they can just look at the ton of debate threads on the subject here and everywhere else.

Trying to shame me into entering debate with you isn't going to work. It's just a waste of time and effort. If you want to dig your head in the sand and continue to deceive yourself about a false pre-trib rapture, by all means continue to so. I've done my job of warning you. My conscience is clear!


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...bizarre how you and Gary can read blains post and get "shame" out of it.

Postrib has a twist on most everything.

I have challenged postribbers to show me a verse supporting their postrib rapture theory.
Now, 40 years later, I still wait.

 

[Psalm1]

The timing of the rapture has been debated to death that continuing it is just repeating it over and over again. It is a waste of time and a distraction from getting ready to endure. If people really don't know, they can just look at the ton of debate threads on the subject here and everywhere else.

Trying to shame me into entering debate with you isn't going to work. It's just a waste of time and effort. If you want to dig your head in the sand and continue to deceive yourself about a false pre-trib rapture, by all means continue to so. I've done my job of warning you. My conscience is clear!


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I have never debated a postribber that knew the pretrib rapture doctrine.

We have the verses.
Our study is way way way beyond the "powerpoints" of a postrib rapture theory.

We are anti omission.
Postrib rapture doctrine NEVER brings forth our study and verses.
NEVER.
What they do is adopt a strategy.
That strategy is in fact "anti pretrib rapture"

The fact that they know not our doctrine guarantees that they can not factually debate.

OK, one of the debate strategies that's well-known, is, if you are losing the debate you need to go after and discredit your opponent and the source of all their information. This is very easy to do because you can actually just make it up and make it look like you know what you're talking about.
But when all the smoke clears, the pre trib rapture doctrine stands strong, and is backed by the word.
The other positions are weak, and that's when the "tactics" come in.
But the heart of their issue is, they "know" that there is no pre-tribulation rapture. They just "know" it.

They don't know how they "know it", but they just "know it."
And they hate anybody that has that viewpoint and they hate that doctrine


Inspite of God's word

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Does one's belief in the timing of rapture (pre tribulation, during tribulation, etc) affect one's salvation?

i would say it doesn’t . Unless the person is alive in the final generation when it happens. then if they didint understand it may impact them because of the other events happening just before meant to deceive people.

often people don’t realize the “ rapture “ a man made term would only actually affect that last generation of mankind and not the many many generations who live thier lives and die as tbe world turns since the beginning. But also it’s meant to be that every generation knows he could come soon so they need to live upright

believing the gospel is what saves and not believing the gospel is what condemns. I would say no