Rapture

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I have challenged postribbers to show me a verse supporting their postrib rapture theory.
Now, 40 years later, I still wait.

Your wait is over. As in the days of Noah it took them all away. What it? Who them? Genesis plainly tells us it was death that took the wicked away and only those righteous souls in the ark remained alive on earth. So will it be in the days of the coming of the son of man.

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark. Genesis 7:23​

 

[Psalm1]

Your wait is over. As in the days of Noah it took them all away. What it? Who them? Genesis plainly tells us it was death that took the wicked away and only those righteous souls in the ark remained alive on earth. So will it be in the days of the coming of the son of man.

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark. Genesis 7:23​

Nice try!!!!
But ..
1) in neither the second coming, or the rapture is the world's population completely destroyed. ( so we know taking Jesus analogy there can not be destruction of the wicked)
2) Jesus said half taken, half left behind.
No postribber has ever discovered those words of Jesus.
You know why?
Because you just framed the Noah analogy with Jesus saying at his coming half the world is righteous, and half wicked.

So, in your doctrine trying to force fit it's will into Jesus clear words , is a total fail.
Total 100% fail.

Let's look at it as it is.
No spin, no creativity, no force fit.
1 BEFORE THE FLOOD.....PRETRIB
2 NORMAL LIFE, AND COMMERCE, AND EVERYDAY LIFE, AND PLANNINH FOR THE FUTURE.
3 HALF OF A GROUP TAKEN, HALF OF THAT SAME GROUP LEFT BEHIND.
4 watch and be ready.

There is not a single component there that remotely fits your theory.
Zero
Not a thing.

Now...ask yourself why do you do that??????

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Nice try!!!!
But ..
1) in neither the second coming, or the rapture is the world's population completely destroyed. ( so we know taking Jesus analogy there can not be destruction of the wicked)
2) Jesus said half taken, half left behind.
No postribber has ever discovered those words of Jesus.
You know why?
Because you just framed the Noah analogy with Jesus saying at his coming half the world is righteous, and half wicked.

So, in your doctrine trying to force fit it's will into Jesus clear words , is a total fail.
Total 100% fail.

Let's look at it as it is.
No spin, no creativity, no force fit.
1 BEFORE THE FLOOD.....PRETRIB
2 NORMAL LIFE, AND COMMERCE, AND EVERYDAY LIFE, AND PLANNINH FOR THE FUTURE.
3 HALF OF A GROUP TAKEN, HALF OF THAT SAME GROUP LEFT BEHIND.
4 watch and be ready.

There is not a single component there that remotely fits your theory.
Zero
Not a thing.

Now...ask yourself why do you do that??????

You're indulging in hermeneutical pettiness. Maybe you've been unpersuaded for 40 years because of a stiff-neck and hard heart that is unpersuaded by the truth.

 

[Blain]

...bizarre how you and Gary can read blains post and get "shame" out of it.

Postrib has a twist on most everything.

I have challenged postribbers to show me a verse supporting their postrib rapture theory.
Now, 40 years later, I still wait.

I also asked for a verse that supports the post trib that is when suddenly they didn't want to debate or discuss it

 

[lrs68]

You are saying Noah is a "postrib /prewrath" dynamic/ analogy?

If that is the case, then we need the. Commerce, normal life , everyday life, future planning, AS SAID BY JESUS, ( that you claim he didn't say), to be Jesus's error????
Your scenario is way way off.
There was no such postrib dynamic to Noah.
Plain bizarre that you twist the very words of Jesus.

I only and ever said Pre-Wrath.

 

[Blain]

I only and ever said Pre-Wrath.

I am not sure if it is going to be pretrib or prewrath but I have this feeling inside that that it is close. I have not had a rapture dream in a long time but I do recall one I had a few years ago where I saw a clock counting down and I knew it was the rapture
I also have had visions of what appeared to be the tribluation but I didn't see the rapture and the tribulation together.

Really I am wondering if the tribulation is going to happen this year and when the wrath part is going to happen but yeah I think prewrath is more likely

 

[ewq1938]

I also asked for a verse that supports the post trib that is when suddenly they didn't want to debate or discuss it

The bible's position on the rapture timing is post trib. There is nothing that supports a pretrib rapture.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.

 

[Blain]

The bible's position on the rapture timing is post trib. There is nothing that supports a pretrib rapture.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.

But where does it speak of the tribulation? his second coming yes I see that but I don't see where in scripture it speaks of the tribulation then the second second coming then the rapture

 

[Omegatime]

NO, but teaching a false belief could be trouble

 

[Blain]

So I want post tribbers to consider this verse here 1 Thessalonians 1:10, which says, "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come
what wrath? if it is post trib what wrath is he delivering us from?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So I want post tribbers to consider this verse here 1 Thessalonians 1:10, which says, "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come
what wrath? if it is post trib what wrath is he delivering us from?

The 7 vials of wrath in Revelation and the lake of fire

 

[DeepSeeker]

CONSIDER THE INTRODUCTION GIVEN IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION!

The Amplified Bible THIS is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries. God gave It to Him TO DISCLOSE AND MAKE KNOWN TO HIS BONDSERVANTS ---- certain things which MUST SHROTLY and SPEEDILY COME TO PASS.

LIVING BIBLE
From John To: The seven churches in Turkey.

LAMSA BIBLE
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him to show to His servants those things which must soon come to pass ;

AMPLIFIED BIBLE
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries] God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must speedily come to pass.

Here is give three accounts of the Introduction to The Book Of Revelation. Each One clearly shows that, The Book Of Revelation was written for That Time; ANDNOT for TODAY! Yet people keep taken This Writing and using It for Today! This is how so much false teaching has come into place in This Age.

DeepSeeker

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

CONSIDER THE INTRODUCTION GIVEN IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION!

The Amplified Bible THIS is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries. God gave It to Him TO DISCLOSE AND MAKE KNOWN TO HIS BONDSERVANTS ---- certain things which MUST SHROTLY and SPEEDILY COME TO PASS.

LIVING BIBLE
From John To: The seven churches in Turkey.

LAMSA BIBLE
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him to show to His servants those things which must soon come to pass ;

AMPLIFIED BIBLE
This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries] God gave it to Him to disclose and make known to His bond servants certain things which must speedily come to pass.

Here is give three accounts of the Introduction to The Book Of Revelation. Each One clearly shows that, The Book Of Revelation was written for That Time; ANDNOT for TODAY! Yet people keep taken This Writing and using It for Today! This is how so much false teaching has come into place in This Age.

DeepSeeker

Those are not very good translations. Why did you pick them? The events that are prophesied to come to pass quickly mean that when the time comes they will happen quickly, not that they will happen quickly from the time he wrote.

 

[Randy4u2c]

The pretrib rapture is easily defended.

Try and thoughtfully debate instead of ascribing theories.

In searching the new testament scriptures, I find the word "rapture" is no where to be found. This is a man made doctrine based on a vision seen by Margaret MacDonald in 1830 and brought into the church. The book "The Incredible Cover-up" by Dave MacPherson exposes the origins of the rapture theories that are now taught in many churches. Our gathering back to the Lord does not take place until AFTER the tribulation of Satan as Antichrist, Math 24:29-30, Mark 13:24-27, II Thes 2:8-9.

The first ones taken in the field are taken by Satan in his role as Antichrist because he comes first claiming to be God and the people are deceived into worshipping him thinking he is God, II Thes 2:3-4. Satan will cause a very great falling away from the true God through his signs and miracles, Rev 13:11-14. The ones left behind are the ones that know he is a fake and will stand against him to expose his lies with the Holy Spirit speaking through them, Math 10:16-20. We are nearing the end of this earth age. Study to find yourself approved and escape the coming tribulation simply be knowing the truth....that Satan comes first and is an imposter!

 

[ewq1938]

But where does it speak of the tribulation? his second coming yes I see that but I don't see where in scripture it speaks of the tribulation then the second second coming then the rapture

The passage I already posted then this confirms that order:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This gathering is another way to speak of the rapture. Christ used this same language:


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that both speak of the coming of Christ and the rapture which is the gathering of the saints. Because pretribbers are so loyal to their doctrine, they are forced to deny the rapture is spoken of in Matthew 24 despite that it clearly is described.

Christ places the Rapture after the GT ends, which is Post-trib. This matches what Paul said about the timing of the Rapture. Never, not a single time, is the rapture placed before the GT.

 

[ewq1938]

In searching the new testament scriptures, I find the word "rapture" is no where to be found.

No english word is in the Greek manuscripts. The Greek word for rapture is Harpazo and it is used by Paul about the rapture.

This is a man made doctrine based on a vision seen by Margaret MacDonald in 1830 and brought into the church.

Wrong. Margaret MacDonald's vision was post-trib in nature, not Pretrib.

The book "The Incredible Cover-up" by Dave MacPherson exposes the origins of the rapture theories that are now taught in many churches.

That author intentionally removed two sentences from her vision because they were post-trib. He is a liar and a deceiver.

The first ones taken in the field are taken by Satan in his role as Antichrist

No, the first one taken is raptured. The timeframe of this taking is AFTER the timeframe of the AC etc. It is Christ who does the taking and the not taking.

because he comes first claiming to be God and the people are deceived into worshipping him thinking he is God, II Thes 2:3-4. Satan will cause a very great falling away from the true God through his signs and miracles, Rev 13:11-14. The ones left behind are the ones that know he is a fake and will stand against him to expose his lies with the Holy Spirit speaking through them, Math 10:16-20. We are nearing the end of this earth age. Study to find yourself approved and escape the coming tribulation simply be knowing the truth....that Satan comes first and is an imposter!

All true but the timeframe of the one taken is after the trib has ended and it is Jesus doing the taking of people, otherwise known as the rapture. Look up the greek definition for the word translated as "taken". It matches the concept of a rapture by Jesus.

taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"

Luk 18:31 Then he took (paralambano) unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.


Same word and meaning here.


Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (second coming reference), and receive you (paralambano) unto myself (rapture reference); that where I am, there ye may be also.



This is the rapture and guess what? The same exact word and meaning is here too. The one taken is a reference to the rapture.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

This is the rapture and guess what? The same exact word and meaning is here too. The one taken is a reference to the rapture.

It doesn't say who or what is doing the taking. Jesus says they will be taken as in the days of Noah. Who is they and what is doing the taking in his day? Genesis clearly says it was the wicked whom death took away; only Noah and his family remained.

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark. Genesis 7:23​

 

[ewq1938]

It doesn't say who or what is doing the taking.

Wrong. The context is several examples of what it will be like when Christ returns. The one taken are those raptured and the ones "left" (the greek word means divorced, left to die) will suffer God's wrath.

Jesus says they will be taken as in the days of Noah. Who is they and what is doing the taking in his day? Genesis clearly says it was the wicked whom death took away; only Noah and his family remained.

Noah and family were taken into the Ark for safety, just as Lot was taken away to a place of safety. Both examples have the ones taken as those being saved, and those left outside the Ark and left in Sodom dying.

​

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Wrong. The context is several examples of what it will be like when Christ returns. The one taken are those raptured and the ones "left" (the greek word means divorced, left to die) will suffer God's wrath.

This is unbelief. The Genesis passage Jesus pointed to that clearly shows who was taken (in destruction) and who remained (alive) is disbelieved and ignored in favor of your preferred fantasy interpretation that has no scriptural basis and no precedence in historical Christianity. Fill up with the fruits of your unbelief.

 

[Blain]

The passage I already posted then this confirms that order:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This gathering is another way to speak of the rapture. Christ used this same language:


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that both speak of the coming of Christ and the rapture which is the gathering of the saints. Because pretribbers are so loyal to their doctrine, they are forced to deny the rapture is spoken of in Matthew 24 despite that it clearly is described.

Christ places the Rapture after the GT ends, which is Post-trib. This matches what Paul said about the timing of the Rapture. Never, not a single time, is the rapture placed before the GT.

1 Thessalonians 1:10, which says, "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. what do you make of this verse here? I see your point in what you posted and yes it would appear to be post trib but then why does this verse say this what is he saying here?