Re-Criminalize abortion; 30-days to 9-months

[Mediate]

When did Jesus ever threaten someone into submission? Even the Pharisees?

He never did. Ever.

When Jesus spoke of those who are completely evil, He spoke of corrupters. He spoke of the likes of Satan who will be placed in Hell, because it was made for those who WILL NOT believe in Jesus name.

There is no human that is purely evil, nor who is purely good.

But the hearts of men are easily deceived. Without deception we are as Adam and Eve in the garden, neither good nor bad, simply innocent.

Don't be deceived into thinking God's love has boundaries. That God's word has holes that make Him this horrible Hell God. It does not.

As Adam and Eve did things, they paid their price on Earth. The ground was cursed. Birth was difficult.

In the same way, a woman who aborts will face emotional turmoil, loss, pain, guilt. She will eat from a rotten tree and hurt herself. Her sin will be upon her. But in the sight of God, of love, perhaps we can help her avoid that hurt.

It is not that we will condemn her and say 'it is your fault, deal with it'. We should say 'Come here'. Hug her. Help her. Love her.

The wisdom of Kings is to become the servant to love. The slave to charity.

The King whom his people love is the King who sacrifices himself for their good. Not the one who oppresses them for His own. God does what He does for OUR good.

The only laws we will face are the laws which bind things. That if I murder, I will have taken a life. That brings consequence of its own.

And my death will be in my own heart and mind.

My torment will be in my guilt.

My pain will be in the eyes of the family.

The world bears its own consequence and God has made it this way, then we realise His way is beneficial. That love is key.

I wish for a world where people are at peace.

That can only be obtained when people give, relentlessly and heartfelt, for the right reason.

It is never about condemning.

The Kingdom of God is within us.

 

[hopesprings]

No I would play God by taking away someone else's choice to do as they wish with their own bodies. I judge MYSELF, not others.

I make rules for MYSELF, not others.

I make MY CHOICES, not others'.

The only person who is qualified to make a decision on this kind of thing is the person who is in it. The pregnant woman herself. The same way I would wish YOU to be afforded your choice of the day ever came that you found yourself in difficult circumstance. And your choice may not be the same choice another person may make.

Jesus tells us not to judge others. Do you think Jesus would say 'I FORBID YOU TO HAVE A CHOICE'.

Did Jesus stop the people who came and hurt Him and took Him?

Did He STOP the adulterous woman? Did He tell the people who wanted to stone her 'I FORBID YOU'.

No, He said 'let He who is without sin cast the first stone'.

We have a choice. Let's look at abortion and say it is a sin, first of all.

Now, do we have the right to sins? Yes, we do. All men have the right to sin. The right to CHOOSE what they do. As do women.

Abortion may be wrong, but forcing people into NOT BEING ALLOWED THE CHOICE is the worse evil.

The Pharisees tried to get people into law, to preach through fear and deny people choice and freedom.

God does not want us to come to Him through fear of Hell. He wants us to come to Him via the realisation that what He asks of us is BENIFICIAL FOR ALL.

If i say to the drug dealer, 'don't do this or you'll go to jail', he then has a habit he cannot control, PLUS the fear of jail.

If I say to a woman 'YOU MUST CARRY THIS CHILD FOR NINE MONTHS IN YOUR WOMB, GIVE BORTH TO IT AND SUPPORT IT ALL IT's LIFE OR ELSE YOU WILL GO TO JAIL', it will almost destroy her if she does not want the child.

I would rather try to support her and make her actually want the child in some way. To see the situation in a different light. To have love in her heart rather than fear.

IF she still chose to abort the child, God will know her mind and heart and can judge her rightly. it is not for me to judge.

The same way, why does a murderer murder? Or a theif steal?

Does a murderer murder just because he can? Who would murder JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN?

There is always an underlying anger, hatred for the world, or some fear. Some emotion. Some MOTIVE.

There are people who will say 'no, some serial killers murdered for fun'. But actually, they have psychological issues. The absence of empathy. The absence of compassion. The absence of love. Delusions. Or ideals. Or they were beaten as cihldren. SOMETHING LED THEM TO BE THAT WAY.

It could have been they took a knock on the head. They were subjected to heroin in the womb. Their mom's were alcoholics. They had abusive fathers.

BUT NOBODY CAN TRULY KNOW EXCEPT GOD.


Yes, they are locked away for the safety of others and for their own safety, but what point would jail for abortion serve?

The woman is no harm to her, or others, only to the baby inside her. but she made the choice regardless. The baby will be dead. So it is punishment for the sake of punishment.

Do you really think she will genuinely regret what she did? No. She will just hate society for imprisoning her.

Educate, love. Not condemn.

Punishment for the sake of punishment is a pointless tool.

Just to say 'they deserve jail, they killed a baby', is like saying 'they deserve burned because their circumstances dictated the way they think'.

People don't do things without a reason THAT SEEMS GOOD ENOUGH TO THEM. IN THEIR EMOTIONS, IT IS SUFFICIENT.

I cannot argue with someone's emotion.

What I would do is look at how Jesus speaks.

Jesus says to us to love one another.

What love is their in hating her? Imprisoning her? Denying her choice that God gave her?

Instead, I should be HUMBLE.

People miss this.

If I am HUMBLE as God wanted, I would say to her 'I WILL HELP YOU RAISE THE CHILD'.

You will be fine. I will look out for you.

I will not let you fail.

I will be patient with her. Kind with her. I will not anger easily. I will not judge her. I will not condemn her. I will suffer long. I will be self sacrificing toward her.

God is as Jesus is. They share a will.

God's forgiveness is just like Jesus' forgiveness.

We may not see it, but LIFE pushes women to these kind of choices. Fathers who no longer love their own children. Parents who no longer have morality. Society that no longer cares for people such as these; the prostitutes, the sickly, the weak, the poor. The blind.

But hey, we only deserve love if we are perfect, right? ...

Such a shame.

No one would be “playing God” by taking away a choice to kill another human being. People should have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies, but we are not talking about an individual body – one person, we are talking about two people. We are talking about one person choosing whether another person lives or dies. Assisted suicide is still illegal in many places; this is a case of someone not being able to choose what they want to do with their own bodies. Abortion doesn’t fit into the same category. And, I’m sorry, but you’re wrong. You don’t make your own rules; God makes the rules that we should all live by, and He said (as you have pointed out) that we should love one another. Not only is abortion promoting murder, but it promotes a selfish, unloving attitude towards another human being.

I totally agree with you that we should not judge other people, only ourselves. Isn’t that the whole point of Mt. 7:5? Women who chose to have an abortion should be loved by the Christian community, they should not be condemned. You’re right, Jesus didn’t condemn the adulterous woman in John 8:1-30, but He didn’t say that what she had done was okay. He didn’t say, “well, it was your choice and I have to respect that, so be on your merry way.” He said to her “Then neither do I condemn you. Go now and leave your life of sin.” (v. 11). The people had condemned her, they were going to carry out their own justice, based on the law. But instead, Jesus, not only gave the people a lesson in humility, but He also forgave her for her past and then told her to leave her life of sin. He wasn’t blind to the fact that the way she was living was sinful. But He told her to leave it all behind, start a new life. Women who have had an abortion should not be condemned and judged by anyone. They have enough of their own guilt to live with, they don’t need anyone making it harder for them. But that doesn’t mean that their choice to have an abortion was right. Sin is sin – murder is sin. You can mask it under the “right to chose” but it is still sin.

I also agree that we have the right to choose what we will do, whether we will sin or not. But the choice to have an abortion isn’t like choosing to go out and buy a lottery ticket. Murder is illegal, and it should remain that way instead of letting it seep in the cracks, disguised as something else. Abortion = murder = sin. Taking away your right to murder someone is not a “worse evil”. I’m pretty new at doing this whole “quote” thing, so please forgive me but…you said “The Pharisees tried to get people into the law, to preach through fear and deny people choice and freedom.” The Pharisees were hypocrites whose teachings were based off of the Law (which God gave to Moses), but they didn’t live it. They expected other people to do what they told them, while their hearts were far from God. Please remember that God is the one who gave this law in the first place. The law shows us our need for a Savior. When Jesus became a man, he came to fulfill that same Law. So…if the Law denied people choice and freedom, as you claim, then wouldn’t God have been “denying” the people choice and freedom? Now, obviously preaching anything in a way to provoke fear is wrong, but we are supposed to fear God.
It is hard enough to carry a child to term and then “support it all of it’s life”, I know, I have two boys of my own. And you are right, trying to make someone do something out of fear is wrong (the fear of going to jail). It would be much easier if people just did things because they were the right thing to do. But it doesn’t always work that way, that is why we have laws and jails. But, let’s get real, adoption is ALWAYS an option. Yes, you would still have to carry the child to term, but isn’t that a mark of responsibility and maturity that someone would be willing to do that for another life, even if they had to give the baby up in the end? As it stands right now, society has so much of a ME ME ME mentality, that if it’s not good for you, then change it. I am not talking about women who have been raped, because I think that is a separate issue, but if you are going to have sex – then chances are your going to get pregnant and if you’re not ready for that, then don’t have sex.

Sorry that this reply is turning out so long…there is still so much I want to say…but perhaps another time. I agree, we should love the people who make this choice. In answer to your question, yes – I have had an abortion and I know what it really does to a person on the inside. Not only that, but I know women who have had abortions who are not believers and still go through the same conviction. But God’s grace is bigger then my sin, and like the adulterous woman, He forgave me. Just like He would forgive anyone else who repented. Being a man, you can’t possibly understand the consequences, and you can say that if you were a woman you would want this choice, and maybe you would even go through with it, but afterwards when you have to look at yourself in the mirror, you would wish that it had never been a choice in the first place. That is why I can say that this choice should never be a choice, because it may seem like a “quick fix”, but it is not, and it has far reaching consequences. I am sorry that we disagree on so many of these issues, but we can agree that these women who choose to do this need to be loved and need to know that they can be forgiven.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Actually the verse in John. it means:

If you see a believer commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray to God, who will give that person life. This applies to those whose sins do not lead to death. But there is sin which leads to death, and I do not say that you should pray to God about that.

THe fact is Disciple, I agree. People have choice. I would not make it illegal for a woman to choose. And you're right when you say we should stem her away from making the choice to abort.

But it is down to how it is done.

'Dont do this or you will go to hell' does not help at all.

The only thing that I need do is show her love. That's it. Simple compassion.

That work speaks volumes for itself. Compassion and love overcome things.

By showing her love, I pray to God for her. I show my faith in God, Jesus, and in love to her.

And what she takes will be what she takes.

She still have the choice afforded her. it's HERS to make.

All that you say is True, Love indeed is the answer, you are not far from the Kingdom of God.

A little side note: There are three types of sins, they are as follows:

1) Sins unto death
2) Sins not unto death
3) Sins not forgiven unto man

Sins unto death = Those that are knowingly and willingly committed. you know they are sinful yet choose to do them any way, these are sins unto death

Sins not unto death = Those that are NOT knowingly and willingly committed.

Sins not forgiven unto man = Blaspheme of the Holy Ghost.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

When did Jesus ever threaten someone into submission? Even the Pharisees?

He never did. Ever.

When Jesus spoke of those who are completely evil, He spoke of corrupters. He spoke of the likes of Satan who will be placed in Hell, because it was made for those who WILL NOT believe in Jesus name.

There is no human that is purely evil, nor who is purely good.

But the hearts of men are easily deceived. Without deception we are as Adam and Eve in the garden, neither good nor bad, simply innocent.

Don't be deceived into thinking God's love has boundaries. That God's word has holes that make Him this horrible Hell God. It does not.

As Adam and Eve did things, they paid their price on Earth. The ground was cursed. Birth was difficult.

In the same way, a woman who aborts will face emotional turmoil, loss, pain, guilt. She will eat from a rotten tree and hurt herself. Her sin will be upon her. But in the sight of God, of love, perhaps we can help her avoid that hurt.

It is not that we will condemn her and say 'it is your fault, deal with it'. We should say 'Come here'. Hug her. Help her. Love her.

The wisdom of Kings is to become the servant to love. The slave to charity.

The King whom his people love is the King who sacrifices himself for their good. Not the one who oppresses them for His own. God does what He does for OUR good.

The only laws we will face are the laws which bind things. That if I murder, I will have taken a life. That brings consequence of its own.

And my death will be in my own heart and mind.

My torment will be in my guilt.

My pain will be in the eyes of the family.

The world bears its own consequence and God has made it this way, then we realise His way is beneficial. That love is key.

I wish for a world where people are at peace.

That can only be obtained when people give, relentlessly and heartfelt, for the right reason.

It is never about condemning.

The Kingdom of God is within us.

Again, you are not far from the Kingdom of God, i can tell when one has been instructed by the Holy Ghost, being instructed by the Holy Spirit myself. Keep up the good work in doing what you are called to do. Praise God for you, you have pleased my heart this night. Love is the answer. God is Love. When we show love to others we express God Himself, for God is Love, when we lack love for others we reveal the other in us and not God. May the Lord continue to bless you.

^i^

 

[Mediate]

When someone believes they commit a lesser sin, truly believes it, it is hard to say whether that is a sin unto death, at least in the cpnfused mind of such woman.

It is true, any sin done knowingly is bad, yet will not God understand the heart and be the righteous judge?

I still believe nobody should be forced unto anything. It is not righteous. To do something from fear is to do it not of love.