H
*
KnowJesusKnowPeace
Re: read
Ben,*
Somewhere, I have my original study notes. I searched my current computer. All I found was this series of responses to one of the currently very active pre-trib promoters. I'll paste it into this email.
Peace, MFM
Pre Tribulation Arguments
These come from a man on YouTube, mindquest1. He put up his arguments at sermonaudio.com/kjvbbf. These arguments are all of the same type: A person enters scripture with a preconceived notion of what he will find. Then, he sees only what he was told he will see. The video is found here: YouTube - The PreTrib Rapture
1. The Jews require a sign. 1 Cor 1:22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:" The Jews call the Tribulation the 'Time of Jacob's Trouble'. Jer 30:7 "Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." An orthodox Jew does not believe in the New Testament. But, in the time of Jacob's trouble, they are going to get a play by play... the seven trumpets, the seven seals and the seven vials. So, the New Testament will be confirmed to the Children of Israel.*
A1. There is no argument here. Nothing stated in the first "reason" has any reasoning. There seem to be some premises. But, the proposed statement: "the Body of Christ will be caught up before any Tribulation events" cannot be concluded.*
2. The second reason I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture is that in Matthew 24:15 it says that the antichrist will stand in the Holy Place. The Holy Place for a Christian is right here (indicates sternum). The Holy Spirit dwells within me. (1 Cor 6:19)
A2. Again, this may make sense to someone who wants to believe in the pre-trib rapture. To a philosopher, this means nothing except that the one who argued it is incompetent to argue.*
3. The gospel that is preached there (I assume "there" means during the Tribulation) is different. They have faith plus works. If you take the mark of the Beast, which takes place during the Tribulation, you lose salvation. Since we don't today have works based salvation, it cannot be us being warned in that time. So, we willhave been raptured.*
A3. This is the biggest danger of the pre-trib lie. The 100% accurate prophet Daniel Rodes of Virginia warned that some will take the mark saying, "the mark happens only after the rapture, so this cannot be the mark." Because they followed men all their lives, and refused to read the Word themselves, and refused to walk in the Spirit personally, they will find themselves at the end of the road to condemnation.*
Further, followers of men like to say that there is a type of prayer-only salvation, and that the life of a believer looks no different than any other person. That is incorrect. Jesus said to call on Him and turn away from sin. We must live in obedience. Effectively, this is choosing God over the world. Choosing the world and rejecting God is "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". This is the only unforgivable sin: rejection of God and choosing the world. Taking the mark is choosing the world.*
4. The second coming is a mystery first revealed to Paul. (1 Cor 15:51-58) The second coming is not a mystery. (Joel 2:31-32) So, this thing Paul is talking about is not the second coming of Jesus Christ.*
A4. And so, believers are raptured before the Tribulation?*
5. You have the resurrection of dead Saints. (1 Thes 4:16-18) Where is this at in Matthew 24?*
A5. Really, that is the entire argument he gives.*
6. You have blood-redeemed gentiles in Heaven before the antichrist is revealed. The AC is revealed in Revelation 6. In Rev 5:9b "for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." These are not Old Testament Jews. These are people redeemed by the blood of the Lamb out of every tongue, kindred and nation... obviously the Body of Christ.*
A6. All people are redeemed by Jesus. Jesus was promised long, long ago. Job said, "I know my Redeemer lives." In Romans 4:16 we read, "Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all." There were also men in the times before the sacrifice of the Lamb who believed in the Redeemer and trusted they would be redeemed by the Promised One, the Messiah.*
Further, Jesus has been dead for more than 2000 years. We can easily believe that some have died and are now in Heaven, justified by the blood of Jesus.*
Another thing that breaks this argument is that in Rev 5, John goes through a door and enters a place where he can see another time. In Heaven, there is no time. I have no problem with John being able to see many different times from one place in Heaven.*
7. The bride of Christ is in Heaven before Christ's second coming. Rev 19:7-10.
A7. Revelation 19, chapter 7 says that the Bride is "ready". No implication is made about her location.*
8. God always removes the righteous before His, HIS Judgment is poured out. A lot of people will say, 'What about the early Christian martyrs and saints?' That wasn't God's wrath. God's wrath is coming to this planet and God is going to be removing those who are obedient, those who are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. He's going to remove them before His wrath is poured out. If you don't believe that, there are a lot of scriptures you are going to have to ignore.
A8. Revelation clearly says that some believers will suffer. "Come out of her, lest you suffer with her for her iniquities." Here is another danger of the pre-trib false teaching. We are called to come out of Mystery Babylon. However, those who believe they are waiting to be caught up will not depart. This argument differs from what God did in the time of Jeremiah and in the time of Ezekiel. Both prophets warned Israel of coming conquest as punishment for sin. They told the people to depart Israel and go into other regions. Those people were not caught up. They fled. Noah and his sons also were not caught up. They fled. We also are not going to be caught up as a way to escape persecution. Those who dwell in the "sacred place of the Most High" (Psa 91) will be protected on earth, under the wings of God. Nevertheless, some will be beheaded (Rev 20), some will be killed (Mat 24:9), and some will be arrested and jailed (Mat 24:9 & Rev 2:10).*
Whoever is standing in the way of God's wrath will be suffer with the willing members of Mystery Babylon. We are told to get out of the way. A pre-tribber will wait for the updraft and become a victim. I personally wonder if those destined for jail are these who believe in God and are redeemed, but are snared by this bad teaching.*
9. Christians are not appointed to God's wrath. "If you're saved, you're not appointed to that." Read Fox's Book of Martyrs.*
A9. Matthew 24:9 "Then you will be arrested, persecuted and killed." Mindquest1 does not like Matthew 24. He rejects Mat 24 a few times in his list. He says that Mat 24 does not apply to believers. Here's the rest of verse 9 "...You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers." So, mindquest1 disagrees with Jesus. Jesus says this will happen to "my followers." Mindquest1 says it will not happen "if you're saved."*
10. Matthew 24 is doctrinally in the Old Testament. The New Testament begins with Jesus dying on the cross. Hebrews 9:8-17. People get all confused doctrinally because they try to take Mat 24 and try to apply it to the Body of Christ.*
A10. Basically, he is saying that the "New Testament" begins when Jesus dies. And, therefore, Matthew 14 is actually Old Testament. So... somehow, when Jesus says "you, because you are my followers", Jesus must have been confused. Jesus was actually talking to those who are NOT the Body of Christ. These must be some other followers of Christ.*
The New Testament is a compilation of testimonies and explanations of the New Testament of Jesus. It includes all the important teachings Jesus gave about how to receive it, what the enemy is going to do against it, and how to walk in it. This argument of splitting the New Testament in half into an Old New Testament and a New New Testament is a desperate act to reconcile a wrong belief with the truth of the Bible and Matthew 24 in particular.*
11. The Trump of God is sounded at the rapture. Trump of God, not Trump-et. (1 Thes 4:16). People get this mixed up. They try to make it the last trumpet of the seven trumpets. It's not the same thing. It's the Trump of God.*
A11. Both the word "Trump" in 1 Thes 4:16 and the words "trumpet" in Revelation are the same Greek word, Strong's number 4536. They are not different.*
Further, this is not an argument which attempts to prove a pre-trib rapture. It attempts (and fails) to discredit a part of scripture which says that Jesus comes on the clouds in great glory, and we are all caught up to be with Him after the first 6 Trumpet Judgments and all the other Judgments which occur before then.*
12. Hope in the pre-trib rapture and that it could happen at any time will purify your life. 1 John 3:1-3 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." If you don't believe in a pre tribulation rapture, then you're not going to have to worry about meeting Jesus face to face for a long time, at least seven years.*
A12. The claim here is that we have a hope to see Jesus when He returns. Notice verse three actually says "every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself..." This means a man that hopes in seeing Jesus and becoming like him will purify himself even as Jesus is pure. It does not mean, as mindquest1 teaches, that this hope by itself will purify you. It means that such a man will purify himself.*
Further, there is no argument to support a pre-trib claim here.*
In his conclusion, mindquest1 says that to support a post tribulation theory, one must steal from the Old Testament, which is heretical because it was written for the Jews. WE are the Jews. We are the sons of Abraham. At one point, Jesus says to blood descendants of Abraham, "You're not the Jews I'm talking about." Those people could not understand Jesus, and neither can mindquest1.
KnowJesusKnowPeace
Re: read
Ben,*
Somewhere, I have my original study notes. I searched my current computer. All I found was this series of responses to one of the currently very active pre-trib promoters. I'll paste it into this email.
Peace, MFM
Pre Tribulation Arguments
These come from a man on YouTube, mindquest1. He put up his arguments at sermonaudio.com/kjvbbf. These arguments are all of the same type: A person enters scripture with a preconceived notion of what he will find. Then, he sees only what he was told he will see. The video is found here: YouTube - The PreTrib Rapture
1. The Jews require a sign. 1 Cor 1:22 "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:" The Jews call the Tribulation the 'Time of Jacob's Trouble'. Jer 30:7 "Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." An orthodox Jew does not believe in the New Testament. But, in the time of Jacob's trouble, they are going to get a play by play... the seven trumpets, the seven seals and the seven vials. So, the New Testament will be confirmed to the Children of Israel.*
A1. There is no argument here. Nothing stated in the first "reason" has any reasoning. There seem to be some premises. But, the proposed statement: "the Body of Christ will be caught up before any Tribulation events" cannot be concluded.*
2. The second reason I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture is that in Matthew 24:15 it says that the antichrist will stand in the Holy Place. The Holy Place for a Christian is right here (indicates sternum). The Holy Spirit dwells within me. (1 Cor 6:19)
A2. Again, this may make sense to someone who wants to believe in the pre-trib rapture. To a philosopher, this means nothing except that the one who argued it is incompetent to argue.*
3. The gospel that is preached there (I assume "there" means during the Tribulation) is different. They have faith plus works. If you take the mark of the Beast, which takes place during the Tribulation, you lose salvation. Since we don't today have works based salvation, it cannot be us being warned in that time. So, we willhave been raptured.*
A3. This is the biggest danger of the pre-trib lie. The 100% accurate prophet Daniel Rodes of Virginia warned that some will take the mark saying, "the mark happens only after the rapture, so this cannot be the mark." Because they followed men all their lives, and refused to read the Word themselves, and refused to walk in the Spirit personally, they will find themselves at the end of the road to condemnation.*
Further, followers of men like to say that there is a type of prayer-only salvation, and that the life of a believer looks no different than any other person. That is incorrect. Jesus said to call on Him and turn away from sin. We must live in obedience. Effectively, this is choosing God over the world. Choosing the world and rejecting God is "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". This is the only unforgivable sin: rejection of God and choosing the world. Taking the mark is choosing the world.*
4. The second coming is a mystery first revealed to Paul. (1 Cor 15:51-58) The second coming is not a mystery. (Joel 2:31-32) So, this thing Paul is talking about is not the second coming of Jesus Christ.*
A4. And so, believers are raptured before the Tribulation?*
5. You have the resurrection of dead Saints. (1 Thes 4:16-18) Where is this at in Matthew 24?*
A5. Really, that is the entire argument he gives.*
6. You have blood-redeemed gentiles in Heaven before the antichrist is revealed. The AC is revealed in Revelation 6. In Rev 5:9b "for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." These are not Old Testament Jews. These are people redeemed by the blood of the Lamb out of every tongue, kindred and nation... obviously the Body of Christ.*
A6. All people are redeemed by Jesus. Jesus was promised long, long ago. Job said, "I know my Redeemer lives." In Romans 4:16 we read, "Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all." There were also men in the times before the sacrifice of the Lamb who believed in the Redeemer and trusted they would be redeemed by the Promised One, the Messiah.*
Further, Jesus has been dead for more than 2000 years. We can easily believe that some have died and are now in Heaven, justified by the blood of Jesus.*
Another thing that breaks this argument is that in Rev 5, John goes through a door and enters a place where he can see another time. In Heaven, there is no time. I have no problem with John being able to see many different times from one place in Heaven.*
7. The bride of Christ is in Heaven before Christ's second coming. Rev 19:7-10.
A7. Revelation 19, chapter 7 says that the Bride is "ready". No implication is made about her location.*
8. God always removes the righteous before His, HIS Judgment is poured out. A lot of people will say, 'What about the early Christian martyrs and saints?' That wasn't God's wrath. God's wrath is coming to this planet and God is going to be removing those who are obedient, those who are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. He's going to remove them before His wrath is poured out. If you don't believe that, there are a lot of scriptures you are going to have to ignore.
A8. Revelation clearly says that some believers will suffer. "Come out of her, lest you suffer with her for her iniquities." Here is another danger of the pre-trib false teaching. We are called to come out of Mystery Babylon. However, those who believe they are waiting to be caught up will not depart. This argument differs from what God did in the time of Jeremiah and in the time of Ezekiel. Both prophets warned Israel of coming conquest as punishment for sin. They told the people to depart Israel and go into other regions. Those people were not caught up. They fled. Noah and his sons also were not caught up. They fled. We also are not going to be caught up as a way to escape persecution. Those who dwell in the "sacred place of the Most High" (Psa 91) will be protected on earth, under the wings of God. Nevertheless, some will be beheaded (Rev 20), some will be killed (Mat 24:9), and some will be arrested and jailed (Mat 24:9 & Rev 2:10).*
Whoever is standing in the way of God's wrath will be suffer with the willing members of Mystery Babylon. We are told to get out of the way. A pre-tribber will wait for the updraft and become a victim. I personally wonder if those destined for jail are these who believe in God and are redeemed, but are snared by this bad teaching.*
9. Christians are not appointed to God's wrath. "If you're saved, you're not appointed to that." Read Fox's Book of Martyrs.*
A9. Matthew 24:9 "Then you will be arrested, persecuted and killed." Mindquest1 does not like Matthew 24. He rejects Mat 24 a few times in his list. He says that Mat 24 does not apply to believers. Here's the rest of verse 9 "...You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers." So, mindquest1 disagrees with Jesus. Jesus says this will happen to "my followers." Mindquest1 says it will not happen "if you're saved."*
10. Matthew 24 is doctrinally in the Old Testament. The New Testament begins with Jesus dying on the cross. Hebrews 9:8-17. People get all confused doctrinally because they try to take Mat 24 and try to apply it to the Body of Christ.*
A10. Basically, he is saying that the "New Testament" begins when Jesus dies. And, therefore, Matthew 14 is actually Old Testament. So... somehow, when Jesus says "you, because you are my followers", Jesus must have been confused. Jesus was actually talking to those who are NOT the Body of Christ. These must be some other followers of Christ.*
The New Testament is a compilation of testimonies and explanations of the New Testament of Jesus. It includes all the important teachings Jesus gave about how to receive it, what the enemy is going to do against it, and how to walk in it. This argument of splitting the New Testament in half into an Old New Testament and a New New Testament is a desperate act to reconcile a wrong belief with the truth of the Bible and Matthew 24 in particular.*
11. The Trump of God is sounded at the rapture. Trump of God, not Trump-et. (1 Thes 4:16). People get this mixed up. They try to make it the last trumpet of the seven trumpets. It's not the same thing. It's the Trump of God.*
A11. Both the word "Trump" in 1 Thes 4:16 and the words "trumpet" in Revelation are the same Greek word, Strong's number 4536. They are not different.*
Further, this is not an argument which attempts to prove a pre-trib rapture. It attempts (and fails) to discredit a part of scripture which says that Jesus comes on the clouds in great glory, and we are all caught up to be with Him after the first 6 Trumpet Judgments and all the other Judgments which occur before then.*
12. Hope in the pre-trib rapture and that it could happen at any time will purify your life. 1 John 3:1-3 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." If you don't believe in a pre tribulation rapture, then you're not going to have to worry about meeting Jesus face to face for a long time, at least seven years.*
A12. The claim here is that we have a hope to see Jesus when He returns. Notice verse three actually says "every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself..." This means a man that hopes in seeing Jesus and becoming like him will purify himself even as Jesus is pure. It does not mean, as mindquest1 teaches, that this hope by itself will purify you. It means that such a man will purify himself.*
Further, there is no argument to support a pre-trib claim here.*
In his conclusion, mindquest1 says that to support a post tribulation theory, one must steal from the Old Testament, which is heretical because it was written for the Jews. WE are the Jews. We are the sons of Abraham. At one point, Jesus says to blood descendants of Abraham, "You're not the Jews I'm talking about." Those people could not understand Jesus, and neither can mindquest1.