Read John 1:1 how you interpret it.

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Komentaja

Komentaja

Well-known member
Jul 29, 2022
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Most people would probably read John 1:1 like this:

In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with the Father, and the Son was the Father
or
In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was God

Anyone concerned with monotheism should be counting the gods here, there are two gods. One god too many. From the trinitarian point of view this is also a problem because the trinity teaches that the Father and Son are distinct persons yet there is one essence of God. Meaning God is one essence, not one person. The first way of reading it would fit a Oneness/Modalism interpretation but the problem is that the Son and the Father are clearly differentiated in the Bible, and both are called God and Lord.

Allow me to present what I believe to be the best view and the way an ancient Jew would have understood it. They had at that time aramaic "targums" which are Jewish paraphrases of the Scriptures, and they use MEMRA, the word of the Lord quite a bit.

Few examples:

Genesis 1:27 (Targum Onkelos): “And the Memra[Word] of the LORD created man in His likeness.”
Exodus 19:17: “Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet the Memra[Word] of the LORD.”

So the way I would read the prologue of John 1 is:
- His Word (Logos/Memra) is not a second god but His own self-expression, much like wisdom is personified in the Proverbs.
- That Word was uniquely embodied in Jesus and became flesh, making Him fully divine in function and authority, yet without creating two gods in eternity past and without the need to defend against claims of polytheism.
 
Komentaja said:
Most people would probably read John 1:1 like this:

In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with the Father, and the Son was the Father
or
In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was God

Anyone concerned with monotheism should be counting the gods here, there are two gods. One god too many. From the trinitarian point of view this is also a problem because the trinity teaches that the Father and Son are distinct persons yet there is one essence of God. Meaning God is one essence, not one person. The first way of reading it would fit a Oneness/Modalism interpretation but the problem is that the Son and the Father are clearly differentiated in the Bible, and both are called God and Lord.

Allow me to present what I believe to be the best view and the way an ancient Jew would have understood it. They had at that time aramaic "targums" which are Jewish paraphrases of the Scriptures, and they use MEMRA, the word of the Lord quite a bit.

Few examples:

Genesis 1:27 (Targum Onkelos): “And the Memra[Word] of the LORD created man in His likeness.”
Exodus 19:17: “Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet the Memra[Word] of the LORD.”

So the way I would read the prologue of John 1 is:
- His Word (Logos/Memra) is not a second god but His own self-expression, much like wisdom is personified in the Proverbs.
- That Word was uniquely embodied in Jesus and became flesh, making Him fully divine in function and authority, yet without creating two gods in eternity past and without the need to defend against claims of polytheism.
Click to expand...

Targum Onkelos...interesting source?....Could you explain where your approach is coming from.

Actually its quite simple if a knowledgable Jew would read this. The Zohar explains all this in a very detailed order that no Jew could deny, just not many righteous Jews study the Zohar extensively and not many at all would dare think to use John 1:1 (let alone do they know John).

To make it more simple, it is in the first word Bereishit and that word alone explains everything (Tikkunei Zohar)

John is big studier of Kabbalah or at least understands these concepts as we see in both his writings.
 
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● John 1:14 . . The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

It's not all that difficult to show the Word's incarnation began with Adam's
creation.

The Bible says Jesus is on track to become Israel's ultimate monarch. (Micah
5:2, Matt 2:4-6, Luke 1:30-33)

The thing is; God promised David that his natural descendants would take
his throne; and that promise was on oath. (Ps 132:11)

The new testament verifies that the Word's incarnation satisfies both the
oath and the requirement that the man who takes David's throne be one of
his natural descendants.

● Acts 2:29-30 . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the
patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us
unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn
with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he
would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.

So then, seeing as how Jesus is among David's natural descendants, then of
course Jesus was among Adam's natural descendants too because we all,
including David, descend from a common ancestor.

● Gen 3:20 . . Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the
mother of all the living.

● Acts 17:26 . . He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all
the face of the earth.

NOTE: According to Luke 1:31-33, man and God both had a hand in the
Word's incarnation. Man supplied nature's part, and God supplied deity's
part. Thus the Word's incarnation has two fathers, the one divine and the
other human so that Jesus can speak of himself as deity and he can speak of
himself as mankind. I think quite a few Bible readers much prefer him one
way or the other, rather than both simultaneously. As someone fully God
and fully Man, the Word's incarnation can be a mite confusing at times.

Having a foot in both worlds gives Jesus a couple of amazing advantages. On
the one foot he's entitled to God's throne, and on the other foot he's entitled
to David's throne so that one day Christ will be the supreme man on Earth
just as he's now the supreme man in Heaven.
_
 
Komentaja said:
Most people would probably read John 1:1 like this:

In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with the Father, and the Son was the Father
or
In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was God

Anyone concerned with monotheism should be counting the gods here, there are two gods. One god too many. From the trinitarian point of view this is also a problem because the trinity teaches that the Father and Son are distinct persons yet there is one essence of God. Meaning God is one essence, not one person. The first way of reading it would fit a Oneness/Modalism interpretation but the problem is that the Son and the Father are clearly differentiated in the Bible, and both are called God and Lord.

Allow me to present what I believe to be the best view and the way an ancient Jew would have understood it. They had at that time aramaic "targums" which are Jewish paraphrases of the Scriptures, and they use MEMRA, the word of the Lord quite a bit.

Few examples:

Genesis 1:27 (Targum Onkelos): “And the Memra[Word] of the LORD created man in His likeness.”
Exodus 19:17: “Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet the Memra[Word] of the LORD.”

So the way I would read the prologue of John 1 is:
- His Word (Logos/Memra) is not a second god but His own self-expression, much like wisdom is personified in the Proverbs.
- That Word was uniquely embodied in Jesus and became flesh, making Him fully divine in function and authority, yet without creating two gods in eternity past and without the need to defend against claims of polytheism.
Click to expand...

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.

The Bible says one God the Father not a trinity.

The Jews believed in one God the Father.

God did not rebuke them for this but allowed them to believe this.

If there was a trinity why would God the Father allow them to believe this.

They say 3 persons in one God but then say God the Father, God the the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, saying there is 3 Gods.

There is one God who is a Holy Spirit and Father is a title and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

Not a trinity but 3 relationships God has with His children designated by titles.

Father- Creator and parent of the saints.

Son- God's visible relationship to the saints and salvation.

Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints and Him in spiritual activity.

Which the Spirit moved in creation, and the Son was conceived of the Spirit, and the Spirit dwells in the saints.

Let us make man in our image.

Adam made in the image of God.

New Testament Adam made in the image of Christ.

The image of God is the image of Christ.

God had the plan to come in the flesh before He laid down the foundation of the world and created Adam in that image.

Which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Let us make man in our image is God and the man Christ Jesus.

For the man Christ Jesus is part of that image.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

The Word of God is the plan of God in the beginning to come in the future in flesh.

And without that plan God would not of created anything He created.

For Jesus is the reason creation is successful to judge angels and people and to provide salvation.

It is not speaking of a second God but it is a plan of God.

Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Those are titles not names and name is singular.

Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans, baptized in the name of Jesus.

Jesus said I came in my Father's name.

The Son inherited the name from the Father, Hebrews 1:4.

The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Everything we do in word and deed is to be done in Jesus' name.

Jesus at the right hand of God.

One throne in heaven and one who sits on throne.

Throne of God and the Lamb who is God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

God's right hand represents power, wisdom, and salvation.

Jesus said all power is given unto me in heaven and earth.

There is one God and one mediator between God and men the man Christ Jesus.

David said the LORD said unto my Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.

Which the Son must reign be at the right hand until His enemies are conquered then the Son shall stop being at the right hand that God may be all in all, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

The Son being at the right hand is a temporary role.

There is only one throne in heaven.

The only person we will see in heaven is Jesus who is God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

Who is the invisible God's visible relationship to the saints.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Some people may believe in a trinity but to those that believe the truth there is only one God the Father.

Let us make man in our image God and the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Everybody in the book of Acts baptized in the name of Jesus.

The man Christ Jesus at the right hand of God because He is the mediator.

He will stop being at the right hand of God when His enemies are conquered and the saints are with Him.

One throne in heaven and Jesus sits on that throne who is God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

Everything can be explained that testifies of one God the Father.
 
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Certain believers are placed in God's family circle by means of adoption.
(Rom 8:15, Gal 4:4-5, Eph 1:4-5)

The status of the Word's incarnation-- a.k.a. Jesus --is many times more
superior than theirs because he was placed in God's family circle by means
of heredity. (Luke 1:32, John 1:14 John 1:18 John 3:16, John 3:18, Heb 1:4,
1John 4:9)

Regardless of how people believe Jesus might've obtained his paternal
status, and regardless of whether his paternal status is actual or
administrative, his status entitles the Word's alter ego to be known as
God's direct descendant-- a position whereby the rules of heredity entitle
Jesus to be known by his Father's name, which most everybody knows is
Jehovah, a.k.a. Yahweh. So his identity as "the son of God" is on a much
higher level than that of ordinary run of the mill sons of God.

Now if God was to actually father a direct descendant, the result would be as
divine as Himself the same as when a man fathers a direct descendant, the
result is as human as himself. So then, in his status as God's direct descendant,
Jesus is entitled to be known as deity; in point of fact the one authentic
deity because that is the only kind of deity that God would bring forth were
He to actually reproduce.

NOTE: I'm not suggesting that Jesus' relationship with God is biological. The
thing is: I don't know how else to explain their situation except in terms
familiar to us all.
_
 
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